I think leveling should be replaced.

[Malania]

Its a mmo. Having players with a vague sense of what they are doing trumps watching a story that ends with the players fighting thanos.

Only on a competitive or challenging level. If you're not doing anything competitive then the basics from levelling is sufficient to carry you through the game. It still a story based RPG at the end of the day.

[Soon-TM]

So basically just turn it into a lobby game where you just select class/spec and press enter dungeon?

We're almost there anyway.

[Ivarr]

Having to pass a test before you can grow feels way too much like school or applying for a job. What makes MMO's appealing to people is that their efforts will always amount to something and their progress is always locked in.

[Crimson Spears]

Only on a competitive or challenging level. If you're not doing anything competitive then the basics from levelling is sufficient to carry you through the game. It still a story based RPG at the end of the day.

I kind of thought covenants would of killed this comment off to be honest. Players really don't care about the story not that I can blame them. What aspects of it I enjoyed they have thoroughly murdered in shadowlands. I honestly really enjoyed kel'thuzad as a character. He was morally grey desiring forbidden and dangerous power to help save his people until he eventually realized the cost of doing so to late. Even then he was always portrayed as a character working towards a larger goal.

In shadowlands he is retconned to be a crackling villain who was serving the jailer all along for...reasons? Its never explained and the character was wasted. Then there was uther... poor,poor uther. His lesson was you shouldn't be angry at someone who is currently impaling you after burning and murdering everything you held dear. I honestly wish I just could skip that whole quest.

I don't even want to talk about sylvannas and thanos.

I would like someone to tell me the value of leveling currently. You are dropped into a harmless world for the first 50 levels where death only comes from pull 20 mobs at once or fall damage. It is so teethless that you can easily complete it spamming a single spell on any class. It doesn't teach you roles, grouping, cc, kiting, rotations, buffs,debuffs, consumables, itemizations, and well anything beyond simple movement.

[Blackmist]

Levelling doesn't really make an enormous amount of sense in an end-game only MMO like WoW, but it also doesn't take long to get there. It also scales now, so basically there are now three states. "Not 50 yet", "Not 60 yet", and "60".

It only serves to make older content obsolete.

If they've got any sense, the end of SL will see us rolled back to level 50, all SL content flattening to that, and the new stuff will take us to 60 again.

[schwarzkopf]

You want to get rid of the best part of the game?

I think they should get rid of repetitive boring stuff like raiding.

[Crimson Spears]

You want to get rid of the best part of the game?

I think they should get rid of repetitive boring stuff like raiding.

Different people enjoy different things I get that. When what you enjoy is so dull they monetize skipping it I feel you kind of have to yield to the fact it doesn't engage many people.

[Malania]

I kind of thought covenants would of killed this comment off to be honest. Players really don't care about the story not that I can blame them. What aspects of it I enjoyed they have thoroughly murdered in shadowlands. I honestly really enjoyed kel'thuzad as a character. He was morally grey desiring forbidden and dangerous power to help save his people until he eventually realized the cost of doing so to late. Even then he was always portrayed as a character working towards a larger goal.

In shadowlands he is retconned to be a crackling villain who was serving the jailer all along for...reasons? Its never explained and the character was wasted. Then there was uther... poor,poor uther. His lesson was you shouldn't be angry at someone who is currently impaling you after burning and murdering everything you held dear. I honestly wish I just could skip that whole quest.

I don't even want to talk about sylvannas and thanos.

I would like someone to tell me the value of leveling currently. You are dropped into a harmless world for the first 50 levels where death only comes from pull 20 mobs at once or fall damage. It is so teethless that you can easily complete it spamming a single spell on any class. It doesn't teach you roles, grouping, cc, kiting, rotations, buffs,debuffs, consumables, itemizations, and well anything beyond simple movement.

I agree that levelling could be turned better to give you a better sense of danger. Like it used to be, an elite mob being dangerous but I don't agree that removing it completely would better serve to educate someone. My personal experience in levelling is that I learn rotations etc as I level and new spells and abilities are introduced. I have to figure out myself where they fit in with my class or even if they are needed at all.

Giving you a target dummy to practice on until you have sustain a certain amount of HPS without oom'ing or letting it die, a certain amount of dps to show you have mastered it or sustaining yourself against swarms is not engaging to me. At the end of the day that's all Proving Grounds were. Target dummies.

I can't speak for your experience obviously but I'm enjoying Shadowlands story. It's not the greatest but it has me doing the story quests every week. I never saw Kel'thuzad as that. He started at that but when he got the power he just became a generic bad guy serving the Lich King. He didn't show any moral greyness beyond his death.

[schwarzkopf]

Different people enjoy different things I get that.

Exactly - and the variety and interesting side of WoW - Levelling is certainly the last thing that should be removed from the game.

I'm ok that some people like the boring stuff like raiding, but raiding is a niche activity in the greater WoW playerbase.

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You can have progression without the silly lvling we have atm.

Well, we don't have silly levelling .. and levelling is literally just progression.

Just curious - why don't you like the best part of the game anyway ?

[Femininity]

Exactly - and the variety and interesting side of WoW - Levelling is certainly the last thing that should be removed from the game.

I'm ok that some people like the boring stuff like raiding, but raiding is a niche activity in the greater WoW playerbase.

What is it about leveling that isn't boring or repetitive after the first time?

[Crimson Spears]

I agree that levelling could be turned better to give you a better sense of danger. Like it used to be, an elite mob being dangerous but I don't agree that removing it completely would better serve to educate someone. My personal experience in levelling is that I learn rotations etc as I level and new spells and abilities are introduced. I have to figure out myself where they fit in with my class or even if they are needed at all.

Giving you a target dummy to practice on until you have sustain a certain amount of HPS without oom'ing or letting it die, a certain amount of dps to show you have mastered it or sustaining yourself against swarms is not engaging to me. At the end of the day that's all Proving Grounds were. Target dummies.

I can't speak for your experience obviously but I'm enjoying Shadowlands story. It's not the greatest but it has me doing the story quests every week. I never saw Kel'thuzad as that. He started at that but when he got the power he just became a generic bad guy serving the Lich King. He didn't show any moral greyness beyond his death.

I think a tutorial just makes more sense. Lore wise I feel it would derail the thread but I found KT interesting in that after being raised his service was based on choice not being compelled though I admit it could be me reading to much into the character.

[Femininity]

best part of the game

This may have been true at some point, but leveling in its current state is nearly superfluous.

[schwarzkopf]

What is it about leveling that isn't boring or repetitive after the first time?

Everything ... different classes, different activities, different zones - these days even completely different stories.

Compare that to a raid, where you beat your head against the same 10 bosses every week for a year.

[Mendzia]

No.
It should be back to the roots and be part of the game.

[Crimson Spears]

Exactly - and the variety and interesting side of WoW - Levelling is certainly the last thing that should be removed from the game.

I'm ok that some people like the boring stuff like raiding, but raiding is a niche activity in the greater WoW playerbase.

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Well, we don't have silly levelling .. and levelling is literally just progression.

Just curious - why don't you like the best part of the game anyway ?

You can easily beat it spamming whatever the game auto assigned your 2 key for pretty much every class in content so utterly trivial its less involved then fishing in game. I don't really even consider leveling without a audio book or some other source of entertainment to enjoy while I mindless hit buttons against enemies that pose no risk of injury to my character much less death.

[Ivarr]

Different people enjoy different things I get that. When what you enjoy is so dull they monetize skipping it I feel you kind of have to yield to the fact it doesn't engage many people.

It just has low replay value. Especially now that classes have been simplified while at the same time being less distinct in their strengths and weaknesses.

Doesn't have to be this way. This is where the game should have attempted to innovate a long time ago. Chromie's Timewalking is great for people who are new, they get to level each expansion as a completely unique levelling experience. But once you've done that, and even a casual is able to exhaust this within a few months, then there isn't anything here either.

What the game needs is procedural world content. It can work both as levelling and as end-game material. Doesn't have to be state of the art algorithmic content either. Simply cycling through all the existing stuff in various orders each week would already be enticing. WoW has so much content that can be regurgitated, yet Blizzard isn't doing it.

[schwarzkopf]

but leveling in its current state is nearly superfluous.

That is of course objectively incorrect.

What is currently superfluous is end game - that's when we get borrowed power, repetitive content and no real advancement.

The original idea of a RPG (e.g. DND etc) was about character progression - right now that all happens during levelling, and literally stops at max level when you gain no more inherent power.

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You can easily beat it spamming whatever the game auto assigned your 2 key

Ah - you are confusing the issue of levelling, with that of difficulty ... levelling is too easy - sure, but that's only because of all the people demanding it be. They demand easy levelling, flying and all the other things that allow content to be skipped.

[Ishayu]

The original idea of a RPG (e.g. DND etc) was about character progression - right now that all happens during levelling, and literally stops at max level when you gain no more inherent power.

Nah, that's the best part! The game scales up virtually the entire game world for your new level but then of course also assumes appropriate gear for that level which you do not have yet. This results in getting a level making you objectively weaker relative to everything around you.

Even the endgame is better than that!

[Crimson Spears]

That is of course objectively incorrect.

What is currently superfluous is end game - that's when we get borrowed power, repetitive content and no real advancement.

The original idea of a RPG (e.g. DND etc) was about character progression - right now that all happens during levelling, and literally stops at max level when you gain no more inherent power.

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Ah - you are confusing the issue of levelling, with that of difficulty ... levelling is too easy - sure, but that's only because of all the people demanding it be. They demand easy levelling, flying and all the other things that allow content to be skipped.

It is all one and the same. I know this is a shocking concept to most wow players but I don't think easy modes should be required to do harder modes. Needing to play X hours to get to parts you find interesting isn't good design.

[Accendor]

Its a mmo. Having players with a vague sense of what they are doing trumps watching a story that ends with the players fighting thanos.

You are under the assumption that its an "either / or" scenario, which is not the case.

Giving new players a comprehensive introduction to their class and general mechanics has nothing to do with the leveling process.
Ofc you COULD tackle this during leveling, but there are other ways. However, in no way makes your idea to remove leveling and to replace it with a tutorial any form of sense.