Night Elf Lands Blocked to Horde

[Raisei]

You know the reason. Blizzard did not allow it. If I would have been able to do anything but watch the cutscene, I would have destroyed the catapults first, and then rallied the troops against Sylvanas. But they did not even allow Saurfang to do that. And Saurfang could have even redeemed himself on the spot if he had done that right away instead of sulking and acting too late.

In hindsight, we got just the same outcome as we got after Garrosh - with the exception that Garrosh at least was consistent with his character writing.
Don't blame players for being railroaded by Blizzard. Bad enought that Horde had basically no representation in Legion besides Blood Elves recruiting the Nightborne (for which I am thankful).

You are right, but the thing is for every player like you, there are three others in the Horde playerbase that happily cheered the burning and are only sad they did not get to murder more Night Elves. The evidence is clear: There was no Loyalist path planned. It was only added after many in the Horde kept complaining about not being able to stick to their genocidal zombie queen.
Blizzards is not just inserting these things on a whim, they do it because the Horde playerbase wants them. They wanted them when Garrosh went mad, they wanted them when Sylvanas showed her true colours. Blizzard has to cater to these "evuuul Horde" players now and then or they loose them.

And because of that, the Alliance is constantly forced to accept and forgive this genocidal Horde despite the fact that it will clearly happen again. The Nightelves showing the Horde none of that for once is a good step to have more realism, but with Tyrande cooled down now they will surely soon see the "error" in their ways and we can hug Orcs to give them the chance to stab us in the back again.

[mysticx]

What is even night elf land right now? Just darkshore? The last update on Ashenvale was the horde taking it before BFA.

Apparently, inbetween the two Horde invasions (And after the second one ) which we *did* see in-game, the Night elves took back control, which we *didn't* see.

The lore makes no sense at all anymore when half the battles and world changes only take place in books, what would anybody who didn't read WoW novels think about Ashenvale, which went from "Still Horde-infested since Cataclysm" to "Again Horde-infested, apparently it was retaken at some point, i guess..." at the start of BfA?

Is it too much to ask to use that fancy phasing tech to show some progress in that area? If not now, then next expansion, put some "World" back in "World of Warcraft" and not have everything take place in yet another new place and leave the "old world" stuck at the beginning of the previous expansion.

[sighy]

You are right, but the thing is for every player like you, there are three others in the Horde playerbase that happily cheered the burning and are only sad they did not get to murder more Night Elves. The evidence is clear: There was no Loyalist path planned. It was only added after many in the Horde kept complaining about not being able to stick to their genocidal zombie queen.
Blizzards is not just inserting these things on a whim, they do it because the Horde playerbase wants them. They wanted them when Garrosh went mad, they wanted them when Sylvanas showed her true colours. Blizzard has to cater to these "evuuul Horde" players now and then or they loose them.

And because of that, the Alliance is constantly forced to accept and forgive this genocidal Horde despite the fact that it will clearly happen again. The Nightelves showing the Horde none of that for once is a good step to have more realism, but with Tyrande cooled down now they will surely soon see the "error" in their ways and we can hug Orcs to give them the chance to stab us in the back again.

The problem is that the Horde is typecast as the villains and the Aliance is typecast as the heroes. Some people embraced that and want to have fun with it others try to make sense of the at best schitsophrenic portrayal of the Horde. Personally i think that enimity between factions is a good thing in a bi-polar faction based setting, however both factions have to be able to suspend their disbelief, in that from their perspective they're absolutely in the right. (Guess where the faction conflict narrative fell flat on it's ass before the xpac even started) Let alone have one of the factions in a perceived position to legitimately cast judgement over the other.

Horde playerbase was given the shaft all xpac long, in what was sold as the faction pride expansion, with all the "PICK A SIDE!" things. If you bought into it then you were left with no good options. Either you could go for the comically evil brigade obviously set up to be overthrown/leave and have story that literally produces nothing of consequence(Bare in mind Alex Afrasiabi said on Blizzcon stage explicitely there would be consequences for your chaoices). Or you could go with the suicidal asshole that sulked in a sewer for nearly half the xpac, before predictably joining the enemy to fight against his own faction.

[Every Pwny]

Apparently, inbetween the two Horde invasions (And after the second one ) which we *did* see in-game, the Night elves took back control, which we *didn't* see.

The lore makes no sense at all anymore when half the battles and world changes only take place in books, what would anybody who didn't read WoW novels think about Ashenvale, which went from "Still Horde-infested since Cataclysm" to "Again Horde-infested, apparently it was retaken at some point, i guess..." at the start of BfA?

Is it too much to ask to use that fancy phasing tech to show some progress in that area? If not now, then next expansion, put some "World" back in "World of Warcraft" and not have everything take place in yet another new place and leave the "old world" stuck at the beginning of the previous expansion.

Where is this said though? Because it was not mentioned in Shadows Rising, which was the last book. Is it mentioned in exploring Kalimdor?

[mysticx]

Where is this said though? Because it was not mentioned in Shadows Rising, which was the last book. Is it mentioned in exploring Kalimdor?

Yeah, a bit in that "Exploring Kalimdor"-book mentions that going into Ashenvale is inadvised at best.

Somebody made a screenshot, but i don't really want to trawl the forums here to find it.

Oh yeah, and a developer once said that canonically, Alliance won both warfronts.

[Every Pwny]

Yeah, a bit in that "Exploring Kalimdor"-book mentions that going into Ashenvale is inadvised at best.

Think this was just referring to the note from Velen talking about night elf "lands", not specifically Ashenvale unless there is a new screenshot talking specifally about Ashenvale. Additionally if they are going to travel to the Exodar are they launching from the horde base there on the shore of Ashenvale? Or going all the way around the continent from Org.

Oh yeah, and a developer once said that canonically, Alliance won both warfronts.

The Warfront was just for Darkshore, not Ashenvale.

[scubi666stacy]

The problem is that the Horde is typecast as the villains and the Aliance is typecast as the heroes. Some people embraced that and want to have fun with it others try to make sense of the at best schitsophrenic portrayal of the Horde. Personally i think that enimity between factions is a good thing in a bi-polar faction based setting, however both factions have to be able to suspend their disbelief, in that from their perspective they're absolutely in the right. (Guess where the faction conflict narrative fell flat on it's ass before the xpac even started) Let alone have one of the factions in a perceived position to legitimately cast judgement over the other.

Horde playerbase was given the shaft all xpac long, in what was sold as the faction pride expansion, with all the "PICK A SIDE!" things. If you bought into it then you were left with no good options. Either you could go for the comically evil brigade obviously set up to be overthrown/leave and have story that literally produces nothing of consequence(Bare in mind Alex Afrasiabi said on Blizzcon stage explicitely there would be consequences for your chaoices). Or you could go with the suicidal asshole that sulked in a sewer for nearly half the xpac, before predictably joining the enemy to fight against his own faction.

When I started playing in Vanilla, both sides have been equally grey. Yes, Alliance more on the good side and Horde has been more shady, but it was mostly Humans and Orcs. The New Horde led by Thrall has been a haven for underdogs who did not want to follow the way of the murderous, demon-blood fueled Old Horde. Then came Garrosh and his daddy issues, also his obsession with war and mass slaughter. What a great way to honor his father... not. Well, Blizzard writing was always mediocre.

Anyway, the Alliance has its share of "kill them all!" players just as well, its not only the Horde. The Alliance maniacs are just more on the righteous side of evil, while the Horde pendants are more the chaotic ones. And Blizzard is only able to write Horde as aggressors only, and does not dare to bring on murderous "justice" of the Alliance which I have been expected to fuel the war in BfA instead of Sylvanas.

Honestly, what a missed opportunity this has been. Alliance screaming for retribution because Varian died on the Broken Shore, attacking Undercity, and then Horde retaliating at Darkshore... would have been much better than the Horde starting another war.

[mysticx]

Think this was just referring to the note from Velen talking about night elf "lands", not specifically Ashenvale unless there is a new screenshot talking specifally about Ashenvale. Additionally if they are going to travel to the Exodar are they launching from the horde base there on the shore of Ashenvale? Or going all the way around the continent from Org.

The Warfront was just for Darkshore, not Ashenvale.

Could be, i don't know anymore (I knew the warfront bit, but how far the ramifications go...), because outside of the 5 zones of the current expansion, nothing ever happens. (That we players find out about, anyway), that's what i meant with "Putting the world back in World of Warcraft", every expansion is isolated, outside of the expansion zones, everything is stagnant, sometimes for years on end.

[Tanaria]

SNIP

Sounds more like confused.com

Whatever happens, Nightborne and Blood Elves need to stay together.

[sighy]

When I started playing in Vanilla, both sides have been equally grey. Yes, Alliance more on the good side and Horde has been more shady, but it was mostly Humans and Orcs. The New Horde led by Thrall has been a haven for underdogs who did not want to follow the way of the murderous, demon-blood fueled Old Horde. Then came Garrosh and his daddy issues, also his obsession with war and mass slaughter. What a great way to honor his father... not. Well, Blizzard writing was always mediocre.

Anyway, the Alliance has its share of "kill them all!" players just as well, its not only the Horde. The Alliance maniacs are just more on the righteous side of evil, while the Horde pendants are more the chaotic ones. And Blizzard is only able to write Horde as aggressors only, and does not dare to bring on murderous "justice" of the Alliance which I have been expected to fuel the war in BfA instead of Sylvanas.

Honestly, what a missed opportunity this has been. Alliance screaming for retribution because Varian died on the Broken Shore, attacking Undercity, and then Horde retaliating at Darkshore... would have been much better than the Horde starting another war.

That moral grayness for the Aliance largely died alongside Onyxia maybe you could argue some distance into MoP, when the elite task force gimmick was largely mirrored to show that the factions are not that different, when you look at it from the Pandaren perspective.

And the BfA could have worked with Sylvanas as the driving force, if they put more emphasis on how the Aliance seems to be singling her out. Greymane in Stormheim, Anduin bringing Calia to Arathi and maybe a few extra diplomatic giga blunders, on the account of Anduin's inexperience and kind forgiving nature, which the likes of the three stooges(Greymane, Rogers, Jaina) take full advantage of.

As a sidenote it may be interesting to explore the divisions between the faction aligned people and these macro worldprotector orgs, which seek to distance themselves from mortal squabbles. (Cenarion Circle for the purposes of this thread, where say Malfurion has to contend with pulling double duty as a leader of two vastly different groups Darnassian people on one side and detached state of the world types of Cenarion Circle that don't give a rat's anus about mortal squabbles)

[Beloren]

Sounds more like confused.com

Whatever happens, Nightborne and Blood Elves need to stay together.

The only reason nightborne are with the blood elves is because they're in the horde and there are only 2 factions, there is no point otherwise. One is night elven, one is thalassian. They can be friends, but in another faction setting, they won't be in the same faction.

[Tanaria]

The only reason nightborne are with the blood elves is because they're in the horde and there are only 2 factions, there is no point otherwise. One is night elven, one is thalassian. They can be friends, but in another faction setting, they won't be in the same faction.

We've seen twice over, that night elves belittle the Nightborne. Tyrande and Shandris, towards the Nightborne leader

Blood Elves and Nightborne descend from the Highborne, hold similar values and are good friends. They need to be together.

I think this is more about the two races being forced into an alliance with races who don't like them. That just causes a mess.
Sunfury Blood Elves didn't make the same allegiances as Silvermoon Blood Elves and Nightborne have had more positive interactions with the Horde races, like the Blood Elves, Darkspear and Zandalari Trolls.

[Beloren]

We've seen twice over, that night elves belittle the Nightborne. Tyrande and Shandris, towards the Nightborne leader

Blood Elves and Nightborne descend from the Highborne, hold similar values and are good friends. They need to be together.

I think this is more about the two races being forced into an alliance with races who don't like them. That just causes a mess.
Sunfury Blood Elves didn't make the same allegiances as Silvermoon Blood Elves and Nightborne have had more positive interactions with the Horde races, like the Blood Elves, Darkspear and Zandalari Trolls.

All that would be irrelevant if they were carrying on from wc3 factions.

Don’t you realise the belittling is written in to give the Nightborne a reason lean horde.

Before 7.1, they had nothing to do with us, it was all added in because they took Nightborne horde.

As such,it won’t exist in the setting I painted out based on the WC3 factions.

In my scenario, because thalsssian elves the most popular and desired race, every faction has a version of them. Blood elves would be part of the Illidari as they were in WC3, high elves the alliance, I would have void elves with the night elves , and San’layn/dark fallen with undead. Only the horde would be missing them because they are the faction furthest from what Thalassians are generally about.

Every other major race would be exclusive to a faction. Ie all the human races would be exclusive to the alliance, all the night elf races to the Ancients, all the orc races to the horde etc. In fact the Draenei would be the only other race that would have light forged in a different faction based on Turalyon’s leadership of them. It makes sense they’d be with the alliance. While Draenei with the ancients.

Doesn’t mean Lightforged can’t be friends with Draenei or Nightborne can’t be friends with blood elves.

The division would be different and the story events unfolded differently.

Don’t you realise they create stories to add a race to a faction. If they weren’t going to add Nightborne to the horde the Darnassians would never have been written to behave like that.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

I have always imagined that like for the Elves of Quel'Thalas not all of the Nightborne agreed to join the Horde, with them preferring to reunite with their people and rightfully distrusting Sylvanas, with the Horde agression against their kin convincing them that they were right and to help their fellow NE rather than the Horde.

[Tanaria]

All that would be irrelevant if they were carrying on from wc3 factions.

Don’t you realise the belittling is written in to give the Nightborne a reason lean horde.

Before 7.1, they had nothing to do with us, it was all added in because they took Nightborne horde.

As such,it won’t exist in the setting I painted out based on the WC3 factions.

In my scenario, because thalsssian elves the most popular and desired race, every faction has a version of them. Blood elves would be part of the Illidari as they were in WC3, high elves the alliance, I would have void elves with the night elves , and San’layn/dark fallen with undead. Only the horde would be missing them because they are the faction furthest from what Thalassians are generally about.

Every other major race would be exclusive to a faction. Ie all the human races would be exclusive to the alliance, all the night elf races to the Ancients, all the orc races to the horde etc. In fact the Draenei would be the only other race that would have light forged in a different faction based on Turalyon’s leadership of them. It makes sense they’d be with the alliance. While Draenei with the ancients.

Doesn’t mean Lightforged can’t be friends with Draenei or Nightborne can’t be friends with blood elves.

The division would be different and the story events unfolded differently.

Don’t you realise they create stories to add a race to a faction. If they weren’t going to add Nightborne to the horde the Darnassians would never have been written to behave like that.

We're way beyond that point of the W3 factions.

They wouldn't work in today's wow - not unless you revamped everything, from TBC - BFA, which they won't do, so we might as well push on with Nightborne being in the Horde and having close friends with the Blood Elves of Silvermoon.

[Moonrage]

Maybe a little off topic, but does this mean that Night Elf lands will not be discussed in the book?

[Tanaria]

Maybe a little off topic, but does this mean that Night Elf lands will not be discussed in the book?

It's highly possible.

Maybe Feralas might get some lore, but as far as places like Ashenvale, Darkshore and Hyjal - I reckon they would be off limits.

[Beloren]

We're way beyond that point of the W3 factions.

They wouldn't work in today's wow - not unless you revamped everything, from TBC - BFA, which they won't do, so we might as well push on with Nightborne being in the Horde and having close friends with the Blood Elves of Silvermoon.

I was only speaking with regards to continuing from WC3. If we continued with 5 factions that emerged from WC3 - that was my scenario, I'm not talking about right now in a two faction setting. ofc, right now, the nightborne are with the horde and Tyrande was a bit prissy with them etc.

If blizzard had done wow in 5 factions, it would pan out very differently. Blood elves would NOT be in the horde but with the Illidari, Nightborne would be in the night elf faction. The stories would be different than how they turned out.. you'd have no blood elves joining the horde, for examples.

I could even see a scenario that the forsaken and worgen are allies instead of enemies .. except that an undead faction is massive, so doesn't necessarily need them if you give them undead versions of every race

[Soon-TM]

They're not. The Alliance is typecast as the popular kids at high school while the Horde is typecast as the edgy cool kids.

That might have been true before MoP, or before BfA at most. But the end of BfA was quite clear: the leader of the Alliance is perfect in every way that matters, and so is the Alliance at large, to the point that the good guys in the Horde have to straight copypaste the political model of the Alliance. Those who don't agree are marked with the "unreasonable" scapular, and are probably on their way to becoming yet another Azeroth Hitler the next time Danuser & co. go back to a "more grounded", mOraLLy GrEy expansion.

[Soon-TM]

High school drama demonstrated. Please tell us more about how much the cool kids are being "unreasonably" scapegoated.

The end of BFA showed a grand nothing. The so-called "Horde Council" is a few throwaway lines to transition into an expansion that might as well not have any Alliance or Horde factions. The Horde Council has no worthwhile development to call anything close to a "political model" and calling it a copy-paste of the Alliance ignores all of the Alliance's High King nonsense that you could as much call a "Horde copy-paste". It's just a very convenient way for Blizzard to buy two years of time to answer the "uhh what now?" question for the Horde. BFA's finale unravelled the Horde's narrative and left it hanging in a TBD void in favour of a summertime special in the bully's house.

Um... The Horde council is literally a copy paste of the Alliance model, especially pre-MoP... I don't know how can you actually argue against this. Secondly, while the Alliance may have a blue Warchief in paper, in practice his powers are much more limited, to the point that he can't even properly punish a subordinate who goes against his explicit orders *cough* Genn *cough*. Truth be told, he doesn't even need to deal any punishments, because he's such a nice boi that everyone follows him anyway (except the baddies, of course).