Night Elf Lands Blocked to Horde

[Soon-TM]

You are confusing "Alliance nations doing their own thing" with "Alliance council". There's a world of difference between the two.

They are pretty much the same thing, because Alliance nations are not subject to a strong, centralised authority, even if the HK could be one at first glance. And now the Horde has ditched its iconic Warchief in favour of a very similar MO - they don't even have a HK, so they are even more similar to the Old Alliance than the modern one.

[baskev]

This betrayal thing always peeved me. You're the aliance and hear the retreat horn unable to see the situationa top the ledge, what do you do?
A) Retreat too and walk back like the other guys
B) Assume it's an insidious betrayal and stare in disbelief
C) Find where Jaina fucking is and have her teleport your people out. (Ofc she is one of the Dreadlords )

We know that by the time Anduin sent Graymane for Stormheim he already was informed by Baine of the Horde side of the story.

to point A:
- we do not know if the alliance knew it was retreat.
- the archers standing there coffering the alliance are save. Atleast they do not seem to focus on their backs. So they could have supported with cover fire for a retreat.

to point B:
- you mean with a faction they have been at war with 3 times already.
- who have bombed their city's, killed many of their family etc ( in their eyes).
- MoP and WoD happend, so alliance is ( and by the reaction of its leaders) a bit tired of horde betrayls.

to point C:
- yeah bad writing. Its like that a lot. agree with you there.

You are suggesting something that is not there:

direct qoute from wowpedia:

Anduin later sent a force led by Genn Greymane and Sky Admiral Rogers to Stormheim to aid distinguished Alliance champions in obtaining the [Aegis of Aggramar].

During A Royal Audience, started when an Alliance champion reaches Prestige Rank 2, Anduin can be found in Stormwind Keep alongside other notable leaders of the Alliance. He hosted the ceremony that congratulated the champion for their battles against the Horde, following their receiving of the [Grand Marshal's Medal of Valor] as well as an artifact appearance.

Anduin was advised by Detheroc disguised as Master Mathias Shaw for a time, receiving lies.[81]

[Soon-TM]

Evaluating political systems on a singular axis of "centralised vs decentralised authority" is dumb. Besides, it's pretty obvious that Blizzard doesn't give a toss anyway. They want to focus on the drama of a tiny cast rather than bother with any kind of real political worldbuilding. The Alliance and the Horde only look similar now because neither have any kind of depth to their story arcs, and both have completely lost their character. A narrative puddle doesn't have space for complexity. It's all the same flat thing.

Yeah, that's part of my point. Were the key elements of the Horde thrown under the bus for... This crappy Marvel-like team of Jaina, Thrall and the rest of the Drying Paint Appreciation Society?

[Jackstraw]

we do not know if the alliance knew it was retreat.

As much as there's canon sources disproving it all or not touching the subject, there's a number of details framing the Alliance's position in this matter.

• Meccatorque was present with mech suit and all, a suit that we know has recon drones and various sensors, and;
• The Skyfire is hovering the Broken Shore, high enough to see over the cliff. It's hard not to see a full Legion squadron overrun a plateau.

Now, Detheroc is said to have actively jammed the communications. However nobody bothers to relay the information to Varian either while the Horde is losing ground up until Vol'jin's death, or as Sylvanas calls the retreat under direct orders from the Warchief.

So here we stand with the facts presented. Not wanting to look to one's left or right can be justified with writing, but the cinematics are there to see. And throughout Legion there's been only one faction willing to attack the other during a full scale invasion as it deploys critical military forces on the homefront - and let's not forget: for personal reasons unrelated to said invasion.

[baskev]

As much as there's canon sources disproving it all or not touching the subject, there's a number of details framing the Alliance's position in this matter.

• Meccatorque was present with mech suit and all, a suit that we know has recon drones and various sensors, and;
• The Skyfire is hovering the Broken Shore, high enough to see over the cliff. It's hard not to see a full Legion squadron overrun a plateau.

Now, Detheroc is said to have actively jammed the communications. However nobody bothers to relay the information to Varian either while the Horde is losing ground up until Vol'jin's death, or as Sylvanas calls the retreat under direct orders from the Warchief.

So here we stand with the facts presented. Not wanting to look to one's left or right can be justified with writing, but the cinematics are there to see. And throughout Legion there's been only one faction willing to attack the other during a full scale invasion as it deploys critical military forces on the homefront - and let's not forget: for personal reasons unrelated to said invasion.

On meccatorque...do we know he used them?
How busy was the skyfire to notice it all?

But yeah the personal reasons is why they took it bad.

Buts lets agree to disagree.

I stand by my point:
If there is anypoint that turned the cease fire bad again. it was broken shore.
It was the small fire that was kindled again and later caused it all to flare up again.

[sighy]

to point A:
- we do not know if the alliance knew it was retreat.
- the archers standing there coffering the alliance are save. Atleast they do not seem to focus on their backs. So they could have supported with cover fire for a retreat.

to point B:
- you mean with a faction they have been at war with 3 times already.
- who have bombed their city's, killed many of their family etc ( in their eyes).
- MoP and WoD happend, so alliance is ( and by the reaction of its leaders) a bit tired of horde betrayls.

to point C:
- yeah bad writing. Its like that a lot. agree with you there.

You are suggesting something that is not there:

direct qoute from wowpedia:

A)
It's pretty damned obvious the Hrode is retreating, from Varian's perspective, with all the hornblowing and leaving.

B)
I maintain my stance that even if it were the case the situation was retreat first ask questions later. Waiting for Skyfire was very stupid given that they literally just crashed another 2 Skyships in the approach, at least.

Find the flavor text before Aliance departs for Stormheim.

Sky Admiral Rogers says: Three days ago, the Forsaken fleet set sail from Durotar, heading straight for the Broken Isles. We think Sylvanas Windrunner herself may be among them.
Sky Admiral Rogers says: We are to track them from a safe distance. We may engage, but only if the situation demands.
Sky Admiral Rogers says: I strongly suspect the situation will demand it.
Genn Greymane says: It had better.
Genn Greymane says: I am not in the habit of tracking prey unless I intend on killing it.
Sky Admiral Rogers says: Preparations are nearly complete. Please make yourselves comfortable.

- - - Updated - - -

They're not. The Alliance is typecast as the popular kids at high school while the Horde is typecast as the edgy cool kids. The Alliance whines that the cool kids got away with ruining prom for everyone, while the Horde whines that the goody two shoes popular kids ratted on them. In absence of an older bully beating both groups up, they bully each other for being mean girls / edgelords.

Horde vs Alliance 'arguments' in a nutshell at this point. It's a childish high school drama that subsumed everyone's individual identities into dumb cliques.

What i describe is more of a fatal flaw in the storytelling structure than eluding to any particular archetype.

The whole mess of BfA was basically "The only way to be good is to side with Aunduin!", by the end. After that point, unless the writing quality substantially rises any Horde narrative is beating an already pulverised dead horse, because the only real reason for the Horde to exist now is technical limitations. (A situation which should never happen, in a bi-polar faction based setting, unless someone really fucked up.)

[Thage]

In the new Exploring Kalimdor book, Velen tells Zekhan and Rexxar that even as explorers and cartographers, they are not allowed into Night Elf lands "for clear reasons".

Just about the entire Horde was complicit in nearly wiping their species off the map, so it shouldn't come as any surprise that the Horde aren't allowed in night elf territory without a damn good reason (Thrall, for example, was going to meet with Tyrande as a diplomat on official Horde Council business).

What does this spell out for any future expansion that takes place on EK or Kalimdor? We have yet to see an event that would really convince them to let the Horde players into their lands, and it runs against the ongoing theme of neutrality that seems like it will be continued in the future. See: Calia being groomed for the position of Forsaken queen, who likely would let Alliance in her lands.

1) The ongoing theme is armistice, not neutrality. Important distinction to make. The Classic WoW, TBC, and pre-Wrathgate WotLK storylines all took place under armistice between the factions. That did not stop border clashes, resource skirmishes, and all out bloodbaths between Alliance and Horde armies. The night elves are under no political requirement to relax their borders and allow Horde travelers through. This also helps keep an undercurrent of tension without having to resort to a massive shock and awe piece, while being completely reasonable given relations between the night elves and the Horde have always been in the shitter, dialed up to 11 with the Burning of Teldrassil.

2) Calia isn't, until we hear otherwise from herself, Lillian, or Blizzard, being groomed for leadership. Every time she's onscreen she reiterates her lack of interest in leadership, one assumes because the writers are getting tired of people continuing to assert Calia (who was explicitly passed over in the line of succession in life and shows no knowledge of rulership in life or undeath) is being poised to become Queen. It's much more likely Lillian will form a council with herself as the main political leader/Horde Councilor, Calia as the head of their religious order, Belmont as the head of their spy network, and Derek? Proudmoore running the military.

Is this just a reason to hide Night Elf zone development from lore, or will this Night Elf blockade continue into the future?

Just because the Horde are being denied access doesn't mean the Alliance would be, especially with the night elves' main sticking point (Sylvanas still running around free) has been addressed and Genn having stepped up without hesitation to help them at Darkshore.

Of course, all this could go up in smoke if someone on the writing team Tweets something next week, so take it with salt.

[VladlTutushkin]

Yeah, that's part of my point. Were the key elements of the Horde thrown under the bus for... This crappy Marvel-like team of Jaina, Thrall and the rest of the Drying Paint Appreciation Society?

How i see it - Blizz really wanted to have that "Wacraft 1-2 high" with "savage genocidal horde, fuck yeah deth metul brah!" and tried to cook up some nostalgia drugs.

Then half way in when it was too late to stop they realized that they cooked Crocodile and it was going to burn through their veins faster then termites go through logs. But as i said it was too late. So they called the ambulance and injected that shiet. It was a wild ride and like, half of it was pure fun and what they wanted and the rest was rotting apart from Croc and crying in the puddle of your own waste.

Then ambulance arrived and put them on a drip, water and porridge with daily pills to keep their body from entirely falling apart.

So horde now in its "regret" state , lying in hospital hooked to a drip and eating some watery slop because they went too far with their usual drug this time.

[Yarathir]

While it's fascinating that you expect the players to come together and mutually agree on anything, it's the writers who are responsible for setting the Horde's direction.

Seen plenty of Horde players go "YAAAASS LET'S BURN THEM FUCK THE NIGHT ELVES LMAOOO TURN THEM TO ASH" only to bitch and moan about being treated like villains later.

- - - Updated - - -

@Eggroll Hordies keep crying about losing characters, and I got tired of replying in detail, so I just saved a post. Feel free to use it.

"Stop offering up a horde sacrificial goat every time we commit a war crime or genocide a group! We have no major characters left!"
"Also, you can't blame the entire Horde for the actions of members of every racial group in the Horde including the supposed hero player character! That's unfair!"

- - - Updated - - -

That can mean anything, really, also just 5 Night elf themed shacks in Elwynn forest...

...or a throwaway mention in some novel, more likely.

Another time probably means "When we feel like it, which is never. But just wait and see, and maybe we'll add 2 night elf npcs talking about it in about 10 years."

[Syegfryed]

You think that a attack is needed for a cease fire to stop. news flash. Anything bad that can blamed or looks like the enemy has done it can set it off.

It can, maybe, be a reason to cease fire to end, but that was not the case.

And yes Anduin said that. But by this time the percieved betrayel already happend.

A cease fire does not end because some people "perceive" an action as a "betrayal", the "betrayal" was also completely arbitrary and subjective, and since Anduin did not allow an attack, he clearly didn't consider to be a cease-fire end material

[StationaryHawk]

Seen plenty of Horde players go "YAAAASS LET'S BURN THEM FUCK THE NIGHT ELVES LMAOOO TURN THEM TO ASH" only to bitch and moan about being treated like villains later.

I've seen plenty of Horde players disappointed with the Burning of Teldrassil. There can't possibly be more than one opinion on it, so one of us must be lying.

[VladlTutushkin]

Seen plenty of Horde players go "YAAAASS LET'S BURN THEM FUCK THE NIGHT ELVES LMAOOO TURN THEM TO ASH" only to bitch and moan about being treated like villains later.

- - - Updated - - -


"Stop offering up a horde sacrificial goat every time we commit a war crime or genocide a group! We have no major characters left!"
"Also, you can't blame the entire Horde for the actions of members of every racial group in the Horde including the supposed hero player character! That's unfair!"

- - - Updated - - -


Another time probably means "When we feel like it, which is never. But just wait and see, and maybe we'll add 2 night elf npcs talking about it in about 10 years."

Yep. As i said - they were too eager and happy to go all in with genocide while knowing that it will bite them in the ass later and when it DID bit them (lighter then it should have) they act like as if they never wanted it.

[Yarathir]

I've seen plenty of Horde players disappointed with the Burning of Teldrassil. There can't possibly be more than one opinion on it, so one of us must be lying.

My memory isn't that shit. Sure, there are divided opinions, but I've also seen plenty of the same people heel-turn and go "nooo you can't call me a villain what the heck!!!" after spending the pre-patch and start of BfA gloating and talking about crispy night elf ashes and how "Soyfang" was a loser for going too easy on the night elves.

[VladlTutushkin]

My memory isn't that shit. Sure, there are divided opinions, but I've also seen plenty of the same people heel-turn and go "nooo you can't call me a villain what the heck!!!" after spending the pre-patch and start of BfA gloating and talking about crispy night elf ashes and how "Soyfang" was a loser for going too easy on the night elves.

Can sign up under all that. Forums back then were just fucken bursting at the seams with gloating, jeering horde fans making dumb jokes about "fried elves" and "roasted hippies" and basically having a time of their life. It was so overwhelming you could hardly see a non-gloating post from under that pile. While those who were against it were "ostracized" and booed by the jubilant genocidal party.

- - - Updated - - -

I've seen plenty of Horde players disappointed with the Burning of Teldrassil. There can't possibly be more than one opinion on it, so one of us must be lying.

I have sen a FEW. And those few were pretty much called "not true horde" and told to play Sims, Hello Kitty Adventure or whatever its called and reroll Alliance.

Horde reaps what it sawed, they just in denial of their own misconduct.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

Anyway the Horde races should have been forbidden from going to Ashenvale and the rest of NE lands, and the Orcs should have found another place to get timber and other ressources from a long time ago, the alternatives are not lacking. Since the end of MOP at the very least.

[VladlTutushkin]

Anyway the Horde races should have been forbidden from going to Ashenvale and the rest of NE lands, and the Orcs should have found another place to get timber and other ressources from a long time ago. Since the end of MOP at the very least.

They got Azshara for that. And it was even before they got Broken Isles and Zandalar. Hell, Highmountain alone shall solve horde resource problem for generations. Its like Klondike of WoW, zone described as a treasure trove of natural resources.

And Zandalar is swimming in gold and lumber.

[Ardenaso]

I've seen plenty of Horde players disappointed with the Burning of Teldrassil. There can't possibly be more than one opinion on it, so one of us must be lying.

best one I saw was a Tauren Druid main who refused to log that toon after the burning and the owner made it so the Druid is still lamenting in the emerald dream

- - - Updated - - -

Anyway the Horde races should have been forbidden from going to Ashenvale and the rest of NE lands, and the Orcs should have found another place to get timber and other ressources from a long time ago, the alternatives are not lacking. Since the end of MOP at the very least.

one of my wishes is that the Eastweald and the Argent Lordaeronians should be just straight up Horde at this point: the Horde can get lumber in Hearthglen and Havenshire area

[Feanoro]

one of my wishes is that the Eastweald and the Argent Lordaeronians should be just straight up Horde at this point: the Horde can get lumber in Hearthglen and Havenshire area

The fun part is you can only imagine that lumber is used by the orc morons to keep those huge bonfire and torches burning in their metal fortress in the desert, since you sure don't see any lumber used otherwise.

- - - Updated - - -

Can sign up under all that. Forums back then were just fucken bursting at the seams with gloating, jeering horde fans making dumb jokes about "fried elves" and "roasted hippies" and basically having a time of their life. It was so overwhelming you could hardly see a non-gloating post from under that pile. While those who were against it were "ostracized" and booed by the jubilant genocidal party.

They're used to having their cake and eating it after favoritism since TBC and used to Horde getting away with massacres and atrocities since WC3.

[VladlTutushkin]

The fun part is you can only imagine that lumber is used by the orc morons to keep those huge bonfire and torches burning in their metal fortress in the desert, since you sure don't see any lumber used otherwise.

- - - Updated - - -

They're used to having their cake and eating it after favoritism since TBC and used to Horde getting away with massacres and atrocities since WC3.

The fact they deny it while anybody can just go and take a look at old forums is especially baffling. At least own for your incessant hatred back then.

[ravenmoon]

The fact they deny it while anybody can just go and take a look at old forums is especially baffling. At least own for your incessant hatred back then.

I love how they continue to deny the blatant favourtiism... how is giving the night elves core group.. and I'm talkign about the speicific hiostory of the group you give as playable night elves - the darnassiasn.. hteir hisotyr..

htey come from Suramar city, this is where the journey of Malfurion, tyrande, Jarod, Maeiiev, adn basically the bulk of the army that marches on Zin'Azshari, defeats Azshara on the adn the legion, flees to Hyjal, entres the long vigil for 10,00 years, and gets introduced in wc3 where that long ivgil ends, to start a new begining era.

Then they go back in their first visit for the group in a serious expansion since the first 12 years of wow.. do this amazing art and presentation of what thier lore described about the race - the their original home city, their original home forest too, and also a beautiful country setting like Azsuana..
they fill it iwth all thier lore, their arcane lore, hte hisotry of the order of elune including hte big Catehdral of Eternal Night - Tomb of Saregeras was made the temple of elune (from it's intro in wc3) - (this is how Maiev and gul'dan and illidan all get involed.


Everything about Suramar, Val'Sharah, Azsuna and broken shore section of Legion, including the entire Nightborne story during 7.0 was ALL about the night elves, including the nightborne - who are night elves gotten cursed by the nightwell.. that get saved by night elves (Farodin, Val'Sharah druids, moonguard) and the class hero together.. until 7.1 - not a single horde or blood elf.

and then they change it.. out of pure favouritism. Till this day .. it's a spit on night elf fans because THEY KNEW they were burning Teldrassil down well before they decided they were going to implement sub races as allied races, they knew when they were building the broken isles.. this is why we got a "new world tree" a "new well" - they knew they were gifting the horde Kalimdor and had created an even more originally traditional night elf set of zones. Because the plan was to turn northern kalimdor into future Horde vs alliance fights, when night elves claim back their lands.


Giving Nightborne AND Suramar to the horde was favouritism like I've never seen before.. the bias was incredible.

You just know it, because

1. We know elves don't fit the horde - we know, it's not part of the theme.. we know blood elves went to help numbers by givign a human like race, but are hardly involved openly in horde lore matters thematically because they're so alliance based - why give another?

okay.. lets give em some leeway, give the horde an extra pointy eared pretty (ish race) but then

2. Why give them a kaldorei city with all the entire sub race that is night elven? It's completely un-necessary, not only was the story entirely night elven with night elven total integration in it, the 7.1 part already had both factions in it.. surely only some of them should have gone horde?

Why not turn at least half the city back to night elves with the Arcan'dor that removes the curse of the night well? and keep the other half Nightborne so the horde can get an allied race for sure, but both faction get something from the entire thing.. that was the very least. This way the night elves get their history /lore, horde get a pretty model group, both factions get something. Suramar could have at least gone alliance or neutral at the very least with the rest of the broken isle elves at the very least being neutral but should all be alliance

Why not.. favoritism.. when the void elves come - which would be the alliance getting the blood elf sub race for the night elf sub race the horde get - did they give Silvermoon? did they give any blood elf assets with it? No.. so why did the horde have to get the only good night elf city? AND THEY KNEW THEY WERE BUILDIGN THEM A MASTER PIECE FOR ZULXDAZAR THE TROLL EMPIRE HOME. which is actually a horde race.. they knew that.. if it wasn't blatant pandering and horde favouritism to give the horde all of Suramar and all of the people there i don't know what is.



If they weren't so biased..we'd have gotten Suramar, full of Nightborne who became night elves again, while the horde would have got some of the Nightborne who are denied the Arcan'dor so kept the nightborne model as their new allied race "the Nightborne". We'd have gotten void elves. and it would have been even. Both factions get a remnant sub-group of the main elf group cast out from the core group. Even if Suramar remained a neutral city, this would have still worked.

it was bias, and favouritism.. gone overboard.. AFrisiaisbi and team worte a night elf story and they know it, but most senior devs including him are all horde biased.. so when something has to to go to a faction they can't help but pick the best for their favourite, even if it is so blatantly part of another faction -