This current streamers trend to exit wow is obviously partly hypocritical.

[Tojara]

I don't really watch many streamers at all, but a lot of them simply won't survive without playing WoW. The ones that will survive are the really big ones that are actually charismatic and don't have boring streams. Whether you like some of the big WoW streamers that jumped over to FF or not, it's hard to argue that they don't have a following or are watched for very particular reasons.

One of the biggest fears of streamers (as somebody who dates one who have a several hundred followers) is actually trying out different games. A lot of the time people watch you specifically for that game and more often than not, your viewer ship doesn't translate over to new games. A portion who likes you for you will watch you play whatever, but most people are hyper fixated on one game at a time, and unless they decide to move as well, you aren't going to get those views.

Everything that's happened to Blizzard in the past few months, let alone last few expansions is basically their own fault, and I say this as somebody who still mostly plays WoW as my MMO. The game hasn't evolved since Legion (this isn't me even saying Legion was amazing BTW), they had a huge delay in .1 content, scandals, and like I always say in any thread discussing WoW, it's a game that's been out for coming up on two decades. Peoples attention no matter how hard you attempt to keep them playing your game is going to fucking wane and that grows with each and every year. WoW has used pretty much the same formula for going on 5 years now and the game has the perception that the developers don't really listen to feed back.

It's a lot of monkey see and monkey do though. When a lot of WoW players trying out FF for the first time eventually reach end game with very little to do (this isn't a bad thing BTW), what are they going to do? There isn't infinite content at max level, and a lot of the max level content in FF basically is dressing up your character.

Negativity sells BTW and I'd be concerned if I was a primary WoW focused streamer with a few hundred viewers to even a thousand or so, upping and quitting WoW. A lot of them aren't nearly as interesting and their viewership will massively tank, just like when streamers jump to other games because it's the "thing to do". If you do high end M+, raid at a high level, or god forbid do anything related to arena you're pretty fucked if you try to jump ship. You see trends with games all the time and it's not just with games. People meme about what the 'hot girl meta' is on a twitch, and it's the same with games too. Suddenly everybody is playing Fall Guys, followed by Among Us, and then you have games like RUST popping up from time to time. FF14 isn't really that different, but I doubt it dies down anytime soon because it's an 8 year old game with lots of content to chew through.

You generally get views from being highly informative, really good at the game you play, or incredibly charismatic. Most WoW streamers aren't number three on the list, and trying to learn a new game, let alone become good at it in a quick amount of time (assuming you even pick the next big thing) is a huge risk.

[Magical Mudcrab]

I mean, you CAN buy gil on the shop just as well as you can in WoW though.

Wow: Buy Token for $$$ > Sell on AH > Get Gold
FFXIV: Buy cosmetics for $$$ > Sell code on Reddit (Editted; Seems they've been updated to market prohib and untradeable in most cases) > Get Gil

It's literally no more complicated. People are just more likely to buy game time via the Token than they are to buy cosmetics that they only need to buy once and never again. It's the same reason WoW's token wasn't fought harder at the start, because the people buying it were ALREADY buying gold from 3rd party sites, this just made it safer to do so.

So, for clarity, I'm not an FFXIV player, I've only played for a couple of hours (the game feels a little awkward to me). The argument I've made is from my understanding of how their market works, which has been formed based on how it was described to me. If you can sell cosmetics from the store I think an argument could be made around the purpose of the sale (i.e.: WoW token explicitly exists to trade cash for gold whereas for cosmetics it's not the primary reason for them existing), but I would ultimately condemn that practice as well as it could still lead to the same problem.

[rhorle]

I mean, really, what do you think happens when a system is introduced which incentivizes players to farm hundreds of thousands of gold a month?

That players are encouraged to play the game and stimulate the server economy thus benefiting everyone who plays? Why is that a bad thing? Why are you even implying that it is a bad thing that players are encouraged to earn gold in a game?

[arkanon]

9 out of 10 of the streamers jumping ship now for ff and other games, are back again next expansion. Maybe even next patch. Its just a fake outrage to generate clicks. You see it all the damn time

Is that what Preach did last time he quit wow?

[Magical Mudcrab]

That players are encouraged to play the game and stimulate the server economy thus benefiting everyone who plays? Why is that a bad thing? Why are you even implying that it is a bad thing that players are encouraged to earn gold in a game?

The problem isn't players farming gold, the problem is incentivizing players to farm hundreds of thousands of gold per month more than they would typically. This silly belief that more gold means everyone wins is not supportable, especially considering we saw how detrimental the injection of large amounts of gold was to an economy in WoW Classic, where items were priced such that most players were unable to regularly afford enchantments or consumables due to price inflation. This was largely because players were farming gold much more efficiently, such as the DM:E Herb Farm that earned hundreds of gold an hour (typically 250~g/hr). Even for the less legitimate forms of obtaining gold on Classic, there isn't much of a difference between buying gold from a gold seller and buying WoW tokens and selling them to players; in either case, gold is being injected into the economy that would otherwise not exist, though in the case of the WoW token it's much more prolific because of the security of using it (i.e.: no account bans, no risk of being scammed).

I should also say, it's a little telling that you decided to tackle this rather than engaging with the main point, which was Blizzard essentially selling gold.

[rhorle]

The problem isn't players farming gold, the problem is incentivizing players to farm hundreds of thousands of gold per month more than they would typically. This silly belief that more gold means everyone wins is not supportable, especially considering we saw how detrimental the injection of large amounts of gold was to an economy in WoW Classic, where items were priced such that most players were unable to regularly afford enchantments or consumables due to price inflation.

So the inflation you are saying is a problem exists with out tokens. And it doesn't really exist with tokens as most basic things are affordable in Shadowlands. Weird huh? It has nothing to do with Tokens or the incentive to farm gold for tokens after all.

[Samuraijake]

hookers blow some peen for money..

but do they like getting beat by their pimps?

do they continue to suck the peen? yes.. and you know why

[Magical Mudcrab]

So the inflation you are saying is a problem exists with out tokens. And it doesn't really exist with tokens as most basic things are affordable in Shadowlands. Weird huh? It has nothing to do with Tokens or the incentive to farm gold for tokens after all.

When you say things like this, you remind me why I think you're a bad faith actor. When your argument is basically "Well, when there's rampant and unmitigated gold selling you see inflation, therefore the WoW token is not a problem", there's not much else to say. Good luck with these types of arguments my dude.

[epigramx]

You are reaching so hard with your mental gymnastics to somehow put streamers in a bad light. Can't possibly be the game that is shit, it's the streamers who are greedy!

That's some real strong copium you are on...

Why not both? The game deserves criticism and they may be obviously terrified of being banned since that would mean ZERO views.
Someone else here is fixated to absolutes; implying streamers are fine; both the game and streaming have issues.

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I belive that streamers leaving because the game is shit is legit .. but the game has been shit for a long time now.

Right now they're leaving because that's the trending thing to do ... and of course because they got tired .. but it's mainly about making the waves.

Count how long it takes before "blizz made saving wow announcement, I'm returning" and then turning around and blizz is shit.

The reality is ... wow won't get better .. it just won't. Classics are now also getting depleted .. only 1 more good/decent classic expansion to go.

That's exactly what I think is going on. The game DOES deserve criticism BUT it deserved it for MANY YEARS. E.g. some of them imply that the problems with overengineering subsystems and grinding started in mid-BfA(!!!) while I can honestly say the game had issues with "overengineered grinding" since Vanilla(and nothing says MMOs have to be grinding-oriented just because Blizzard did it that way)!

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I am not a fan of Asmon but he definitely isn't a good streamer to compare all WoW streamers too. I think you're letting this guy live in your head rent free which isn't going to fix any of your problems. What do you care if others go to play other games? Blizzard profits come from the In-Game Store Whales, not large active player base. They have 8 to 9 million less active than they did in 2008-2010 yet the stock is 55-60 more than prior. They don't need the large active player base, they just continue to profit off less players and cut overhead in terms of labor. WoW isn't going anywhere, they will just produce more from the in-game store to compensate. They have a system in place that allows people to utilize WoW Tokens for gold to boost through content which will keep profits normalized. Stop letting streamers and quitters bother you, it will have little affect over the longevity of the game unless they lose the boosting crowd. Money Talks and frankly at this point they don't need you, they need the boostybois.

Nothing is rent free. He is the most popular streamer in the ENTIRE TWITCH. Discussing what he does doesn't make you obsessed with him (I personally even ENJOY watching him sometimes but: I do find him way more juvenile than my taste (let alone his streams run for 8 hours and I don't have time for that)).

[rhorle]

When you say things like this, you remind me why I think you're a bad faith actor. When your argument is basically "Well, when there's rampant and unmitigated gold selling you see inflation, therefore the WoW token is not a problem", there's not much else to say. Good luck with these types of arguments my dude.

Because summary dismissal and insults is not bad faith? We have had the token for 6 years now. The token hasn't caused massive amounts of inflation that you keep saying happens when players are encouraged to farm gold. It isn't bad faith to point that out and refute your own claims. The mission table has led to more inflation then the token has given how it was creating gold for little effort each day.

[epigramx]

So what you two are saying is that it's new content for them. And then they burn through it and then they have no content and they whine and they head back to WoW or whatever the next New MMO is that'll die off 2 weeks after launch and then they'll go back to WoW. The cycle continues. Liking FFXIV is cool and all but if you think these vultures aren't going to absolutely shred it the second they're out of new content you're only deluding yourselves. They do it for WoW, they do it for every other MMO they try, they'll do it for your game too.

FF14 respects your time and the staff humbly asks to take a break/play something else while they make new content, WoW has BS like grind a really small zone for 3months+ straight so you get all the player power rewards on one class while the gameplay loop of that zone itself is pure boredom after 2-3 weeks.

It's not even about ff14 as not everyone said they swap to that or something, most cc's just lost their passion with WoW's BS systems design for the last 3 years while Jeff superman Hamilton says we should shut up because without their superior system designers we won't get epic purrrples.

The first poster has a very good point. Those people had NEVER seen ff14 (e.g. asmongold) so if they say it's fresh compared to WoW then it's an unfair comparison because that's "objectively a subjective view" because THEY haven't seen that game yet.
E.g. I saw ff14 FOUR YEARS ago and some of that content Asmongold went through was to me ANCIENT and I never found it more than a copy cat of WoW on its core mechanics anyway (the story was worse too because it was way too disconnected / non-linear).

[rhorle]

The first poster has a very good point. Those people had NEVER seen ff14 (e.g. asmongold) so if they say it's fresh compared to WoW then it's an unfair comparison because that's "objectively a subjective view" because THEY haven't seen that game yet.

It will be interesting to see how all the new people see the game after the honeymoon phase is over. But that might not occur for a year or two depending on how quickly they do stuff.

[epigramx]

Its even simpler then that, most of them where quitting before any of the sexual harassments stuff. Asmongold first FF14 stream was weeks before, his announcement of playing the game more then a month before. Its pretty much coincidence, if anything 9.1 taking forever and being a wet fart was the last straw for most of them.

You are right. It is a coincidence in part because I noticed asmon was mainly in a "let's try BOTH wow and ff14" situation and THEN turned out to feel more like an exodus. Basically: I think that big streamers like him gave the impression to some more "absolutist" streamers to completely quit and advertise that they're doing it (IIRC he's not advertising that he won't return).

[Crimson Spears]

Because summary dismissal and insults is not bad faith? We have had the token for 6 years now. The token hasn't caused massive amounts of inflation that you keep saying happens when players are encouraged to farm gold. It isn't bad faith to point that out and refute your own claims. The mission table has led to more inflation then the token has given how it was creating gold for little effort each day.

It has caused pretty massive inflation now its not the sole driver but you never saw this level of gold being required to do things or purchase boes before the token. Yes early weeks they spiked but they dropped far faster.

[Kithelle]

You realize how much bs that is right? If a steamer almost solemnly streams one game and the quits said game, chances are, many of his viewers will no longer watch him. That's not true for every steamer, but the risk is always there.

While I'm not saying the OP is right...but if you stick with a streamer long enough you're probably gonna stick with them even if they switch games because you like that streamer. Or else why watch them...if you only care about WoW they why sub or donate bits? You can literally watch who ever is on at whatever time if only the game matters to you

Just look as Admongold...he left WoW and his fans went with him...not only did they follow him, didn't he have record numbers? He wouldn't get that if all his fans dumped him because he moved from WoW.

[tacoloco]

streamers are being targeted by the new Blizzard staff members
if they hung around it would not be long before their accounts started getting silenced or banned

Uh huh. And I'm sure you can provide proof of this.

[epigramx]

This is an oversimplification. These are players who are typically sick and tired of having a longstanding relationship with Blizzard (sometimes with a degree of animosity, as in Asmongold's case with his public feuds with multiple developers) and not having their feedback taken into consideration. This has been an ongoing trend, whether it be Legion Legendary feedback, BfA Azerite armor and Corruptions feedback, or Shadowlands Covenants and Domination Sockets feedback (to give a few examples), where Blizzard has blatantly ignored feedback provided in the Betas and PTRs and then go on to make the mistakes they had been warned about. Players are seeing this happen again and again, and so they become tired of it. This sort of feedback fatigue that makes many people feel like they're paying for a Beta (i.e.: Beta for Azeroth, Betalands), which is compounded with serious issues that have existed for a long time:
- Being able to purchase gold from Blizzard which can then be used to buy raids, M+ clears, PvP ratings, reducing prestige of many activities.
- Some classes still feel incomplete after being gutted post Legion [such as Fire Mage].
- PvP has received very little love (new Arenas, but only 1 new Battleground in 6 years, but no new PvP Battleground types).
- Very little to do outside of Raiding and M+.
- Alternative activities (such as Raw Gold Farming in old instances) are constantly receiving unwanted changes and nerfs, also have inconsistent application of legacy buff.

When players then go to other games and praise them, they're not being hypocritical, people just don't understand the nuance of what they're saying. A good example of this is the FFXIV cash shop, which people point to and call people who praise their form of monetization as being hypocritical. This ignores the fact that Gil (FFXIV currency) cannot be bought on their cash shop, whereas WoW tokens (which are always in high demand) can and be exchanged for gold, this injection of currency then causes inflation (i.e.: FFXIV has more items on their shop, but WoW has more detrimental ones).

Fatigue for not being heard? That implies asmon and others like him are REPRESENTATIVES OF ALL THEIR VIEWERS. That's not what's happening because most viewers watch people like that as friend-simulators and not because they have the same opinions they have (before they have watched them at least).

[Asrialol]

It's like the hot tub meta. The new meta for dudes is FFXIV. It is what it is.

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Because summary dismissal and insults is not bad faith? We have had the token for 6 years now. The token hasn't caused massive amounts of inflation that you keep saying happens when players are encouraged to farm gold. It isn't bad faith to point that out and refute your own claims. The mission table has led to more inflation then the token has given how it was creating gold for little effort each day.

The only thing the token does is switch gold from x to y. And grant Blizzard more money for subs than regular subs. It doesn't actually impact the economy when it doesn't create new gold.

[glowpipe]

Is that what Preach did last time he quit wow?

its what gonna happen now. He'll be back. mark my words

[arkanon]

its what gonna happen now. He'll be back. mark my words

Why? What reason do you have to believe he will come back?