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  1. #1

    About Titans and First Ones

    In the Grimoire of the Shadow Lands, it is said that the First created the Pantheons as the embodiment of the influence of their cosmic forces. And so, an important question. Why didn't the Titans mention the First Ones in the Chronicle? Yes, I know that in those days the Chronicles were not the opinion of the Titans, and the First Ones had not yet been invented, but this is just a huge plot hole. The Titans seem to be unaware of the First Ones. Compare Titans and Eternal Ones. The Eternal Ones respect the First Ones, and the Jailer despises them, considers the universe imperfect, and wants their power. The Titans never mentioned them. For example, Sargeras did not wonder why the First Ones allow such an abomination as the Void Lords to exist.

  2. #2
    Over 9000! Lahis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    In the Grimoire of the Shadow Lands, it is said that the First created the Pantheons as the embodiment of the influence of their cosmic forces. And so, an important question. Why didn't the Titans mention the First Ones in the Chronicle? Yes, I know that in those days the Chronicles were not the opinion of the Titans, and the First Ones had not yet been invented, but this is just a huge plot hole. The Titans seem to be unaware of the First Ones. Compare Titans and Eternal Ones. The Eternal Ones respect the First Ones, and the Jailer despises them, considers the universe imperfect, and wants their power. The Titans never mentioned them. For example, Sargeras did not wonder why the First Ones allow such an abomination as the Void Lords to exist.
    You said it yourself:
    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    Yes, I know that in those days the Chronicles were not the opinion of the Titans, and the First Ones had not yet been invented
    When Titans were around in the story, First Ones were not invented. They could have not spoken about something that did not exists yet.

  3. #3
    Since you already know the meta answer to this, maybe you want to speculate on an in-universe answer ?

    Maybe the Titans, beings of Order have their own form of hubris which leads them to consider themselves as the sole Architects of the Cosmos.

    Maybe their realm (which we have yet to hear about, even though I doubt it exists, since Titans are born in the "Reality" plane) doesn't have remains of the First ones, unlike the Shadowlands.

    Maybe since they are born and were not created, they don't know what was anterior to them, and only learnt things on the cosmos as they went by.

  4. #4
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    From a Watsonian or in-game perspective, the First Ones would've set the systems in motion - they ordered the metacosm, more or less, and set in place the machinery that would eventually give rise to Titanic World-Souls. The Titans never knew their progenitors, just like most other created beings in any given mythology. Aman'thul, the first of the Titans, gestated as a World-Soul within his planet until he was "born" into Titanic existence, then took it as his mantle to find and nurture others of his kind and, as a being of the cosmic principle of Order, took it upon himself to correct issues he found in the physical universe where chaos spread unchecked. When he found others of his kind and helped them take form, they became the Pantheon and the events of the Chronicle occurred as written.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  5. #5
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    From a Watsonian or in-game perspective, the First Ones would've set the systems in motion - they ordered the metacosm, more or less, and set in place the machinery that would eventually give rise to Titanic World-Souls. The Titans never knew their progenitors, just like most other created beings in any given mythology. Aman'thul, the first of the Titans, gestated as a World-Soul within his planet until he was "born" into Titanic existence, then took it as his mantle to find and nurture others of his kind and, as a being of the cosmic principle of Order, took it upon himself to correct issues he found in the physical universe where chaos spread unchecked. When he found others of his kind and helped them take form, they became the Pantheon and the events of the Chronicle occurred as written.
    I still like to think that given the similarities between the Titans and First Ones, seeing their architecture and incessant need to order the universe are similar in conjunction with Aman'Thul's apparent ability to control time, are explainable by the Titans being the First Ones, just sent back in time to re-order the universe as the First Ones. Some cosmic chicken and egg buggery, where the Titans continually are born (each iteration giving birth to new Titans), exist throughout Warcraft history, then the new Titans go back in time to act as the First Ones in the following iteration. There's obviously no evidence for this, I think it would just be very funny.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    I still like to think that given the similarities between the Titans and First Ones, seeing their architecture and incessant need to order the universe are similar in conjunction with Aman'Thul's apparent ability to control time, are explainable by the Titans being the First Ones, just sent back in time to re-order the universe as the First Ones. Some cosmic chicken and egg buggery, where the Titans continually are born (each iteration giving birth to new Titans), exist throughout Warcraft history, then the new Titans go back in time to act as the First Ones in the following iteration. There's obviously no evidence for this, I think it would just be very funny.
    That comes pretty close to the Xel'Naga, so Daloser wouldn't even have to come up with anything new. You're hired.
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    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  7. #7
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    I still like to think that given the similarities between the Titans and First Ones, seeing their architecture and incessant need to order the universe are similar in conjunction with Aman'Thul's apparent ability to control time, are explainable by the Titans being the First Ones, just sent back in time to re-order the universe as the First Ones. Some cosmic chicken and egg buggery, where the Titans continually are born (each iteration giving birth to new Titans), exist throughout Warcraft history, then the new Titans go back in time to act as the First Ones in the following iteration. There's obviously no evidence for this, I think it would just be very funny.
    Aman'thul doesn't really control time, per se; he's just fully cognizant of how time is supposed to play out in its entirety as concerns the physical universe. Based on what we know of the First Ones, and mention of a conflict with an unknown seventh power or entity of some kind, it seems the initial ordering of the metacosm wasn't driven out of a need for universal order (which is why a primordial realm of Disorder probably exists), but rather a need to repair and/or "fix" a metacosm broken by some unimaginable conflict or calamity. That the First Ones could reflect the Titans as some kind of similar counterpart is possible, though.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  8. #8
    Warchief Progenitor Aquarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    In the Grimoire of the Shadow Lands, it is said that the First created the Pantheons as the embodiment of the influence of their cosmic forces. And so, an important question. Why didn't the Titans mention the First Ones in the Chronicle? Yes, I know that in those days the Chronicles were not the opinion of the Titans, and the First Ones had not yet been invented, but this is just a huge plot hole. The Titans seem to be unaware of the First Ones. Compare Titans and Eternal Ones. The Eternal Ones respect the First Ones, and the Jailer despises them, considers the universe imperfect, and wants their power. The Titans never mentioned them. For example, Sargeras did not wonder why the First Ones allow such an abomination as the Void Lords to exist.
    Because they exist under the different name. They are constellars. It's simple as that. Jailer silently destroyed their kind. There is way too much details and clues everywhere, even damn telescope in the raid. None even mentions it, none talks about it, none questions what happened to them, except few people on this forum who are interested in the topic. I wish this came to light and Jailer will pay for this if I'm correct and after what I saw I feel 99% now that I am. If they died in such unspeakable terror they at least deserve a memory.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    Because they exist under the different name. They are constellars. It's simple as that. Jailer silently destroyed their kind. There is way too much details and clues everywhere, even damn telescope in the raid. None even mentions it, none talks about it, none questions what happened to them, except few people on this forum who are interested in the topic. I wish this came to light and Jailer will pay for this if I'm correct and after what I saw I feel 99% now that I am. If they died in such unspeakable terror they at least deserve a memory.
    Nice theory, but how it matches up with Algalon position?

  10. #10
    I get the impression blizzard is using the concept of sacred geometry for the First ones
    Saying that because it comes off as the First ones being built up as perhaps the first true gods of the Wow universe

  11. #11
    Blizzard can come up with one retcon at a time, that's what writers are being paid for, so naturally the "Stronger force" of the cosmos we don't know yet about that is going to be invented in 2-4 years will not be mentioned by anyone or anywhere today either.

    The writers don't lack vision, and Blizzard doesn't lack money to pay for their vision, but they chose not to. So this is what we get
    Last edited by javierdsv; 2021-07-20 at 07:57 PM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vineman24 View Post
    Nice theory, but how it matches up with Algalon position?
    He might be the last living one. Jailer wants to forge new reality. I think he is going for Ulduar. Ever wondered why we are so damn powerful? Why we are able to use constellan way-stones or open vault. Because he is watching us over. Because we might be his creations so is the moon. Remnants of his stars are the Eternals. Oh and by the way, have you seen any stars or moon in Argus? We have to be really careful so the Jailer won’t make Azeroth a Death Titan. I believe Dreadlords were behind this plan to make us kill Argus and disable the Arbiter this way.
    Last edited by Progenitor Aquarius; 2021-07-29 at 05:28 PM.

  13. #13
    Well, i think the issue is, the first ones are one of the worst retcons to the games's lore to be honest.

    Thing about this: Its very, VERY unlikely, that the Titan Pantheon knowing most of the universe's secrets and shaping worlds and Sargeras + KJ/Archimonde don't know that the first ones exist, while almost everyone in the shadowlands do. And we know that various cosmologic powers interacted with the Shadowlands so its not some mysterious exclusive place to be, that knowledge of the first ones is well known throughout the universe in lore.(while of course put in later into the lore)

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannica View Post
    Well, i think the issue is, the first ones are one of the worst retcons to the games's lore to be honest.

    Thing about this: Its very, VERY unlikely, that the Titan Pantheon knowing most of the universe's secrets and shaping worlds and Sargeras + KJ/Archimonde don't know that the first ones exist, while almost everyone in the shadowlands do. And we know that various cosmologic powers interacted with the Shadowlands so its not some mysterious exclusive place to be, that knowledge of the first ones is well known throughout the universe in lore.(while of course put in later into the lore)
    Much like Sylvie lying to the reader in her inner monologue, not only is Chronicles from the Titans' perspective, but they lied about not knowing the First Ones. Danuser will circle back to you with a reason later.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Much like Sylvie lying to the reader in her inner monologue, not only is Chronicles from the Titans' perspective, but they lied about not knowing the First Ones. Danuser will circle back to you with a reason later.
    Yeah, there is no way, that the Titans don't know about the first ones.

  16. #16
    By the way, one more thing. It doesn't seem strange to you that we have a specific number of Eternal Ones and each has its own work and an unknown number of Titans scattered throughout the universe. And while the Titans do what they want, they don't have the job that the First Ones assigned them to. They are simply born and order the planets because they want it (only if the First Ones did not put this idea on a subconscious level for them). I mean, they don't really look like the Pantheon of Order in the new lore, but rather just an extremely powerful race (as they were in the old lore).

  17. #17
    Warchief Progenitor Aquarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    By the way, one more thing. It doesn't seem strange to you that we have a specific number of Eternal Ones and each has its own work and an unknown number of Titans scattered throughout the universe. And while the Titans do what they want, they don't have the job that the First Ones assigned them to. They are simply born and order the planets because they want it (only if the First Ones did not put this idea on a subconscious level for them). I mean, they don't really look like the Pantheon of Order in the new lore, but rather just an extremely powerful race (as they were in the old lore).
    It doesn’t for me because I know that sleeping Titans are planets. Awaken Titans are some sort of planetary nebulas. Eternals are remnants of a star just like Elune or Naaru so they are much closer to the First Ones and their job is much more important.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    It doesn’t for me because I know that sleeping Titans are planets. Awaken Titans are some sort of planetary nebulas. Eternals are remnants of a star just like Elune or Naaru so they are much closer to the First Ones and their job is much more important.
    Where do you get this information from?

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    Where do you get this information from?
    Nowhere, because it's nonsense. We don't know what, if anything, the Eternals were before they were placed in their realms in the Shadowlands.
    For that matter, while we now know that Elune is the WQ's sister, we still don't know what the two are specieswise, and there's been nothing to suggest that Naaru have any connection to stars whatsoever.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    It doesn’t for me because I know that sleeping Titans are planets. Awaken Titans are some sort of planetary nebulas. Eternals are remnants of a star just like Elune or Naaru so they are much closer to the First Ones and their job is much more important.
    Oh boy.
    That doesn't compute at all, Titans are literally the living metal core of a planet. RL planetary nebulas are the outer shells of a red giant star, driven off by stellar winds from it's core during and after the He->C fusion phase, whith it's core becoming laid open in the end. Stars >8 solar masses will explode in a supernova, though.
    And Eternals the remains? Just no.

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