Rage quitters in m+ deserve a massive penalty

[Specialka]

If there's a chance you'll fuck up mechanics they will, yeah. But for easy bosses they let you play if you want

I would personally not take any chance about that and ask the boosted to die each time in a corner. After all, we are here to deliver a service and not for them to enjoy the delivering !

[Temp name]

I would personally take any chance about that and ask the boosted to die each time in a corner. After all, we are here to deliver a service and for them to enjoy the delivering !

And dying in a corner isn't all that fun as opposed to (pretending to) helping kill the boss. That said, yeah, you're getting paid to kill the boss, if you need them to actually do mechanics or hit the boss, you're not boosting

[Laqweeta]

Run with a guild have a nice day - this is an MMORPG.

[Twdft]

it doesn't matter if there are 44 holy priests at 2.4k rio or more... that doesn't make it easier for me to find people who want to play with a holy priest...

There are not that many players running 20 and higher. Are you by any chance alliance were even fewer do that? Maybe you actually achieved to build a reputation in pug land for dropping groups at the slightest whiff and that's why noone invites you. Reading all the stories you share here on mmo-c I wouldn't want to play with you, that's for sure.

[Hugo Wurstel]

No thanks. When I'm trying to get my alts thru a 15 and they repeatedly decline me even though I'm entirely capable of timing any 15... I love nothing more than to find them on my main, queue up, smash the meters and drop group after first boss. ^_^

A prime example of the psychological categorization of an egomaniac!

Just don't take yourself too seriously - I'm sure you've turned down people on your main who would certainly have been able to master the dungeon in the appropriate amount of time.

[Aleksej89]

I mean... a game where you are encouraged to stick to a community with individuals with same interests/goals and abilities? SHOCKING! Might as well think that M+ is like a raid - if you pug, your success rates are crap? WOAH

Its not good game design when in PVE you get penalized for interacting with other random players.
WoW is not EVE online where PVP backstabbing can happen to anyone at any moment.

One player leaving a mythic dungeon (for whatever reason) should not instantly ruin the entire progress for the other 4 players.
That restriction is causing more harm than good and whatever issue blizzard wanted to solve with it should be solved in another way.

[Twdft]

Its not good game design when in PVE you get penalized for interacting with other random players.
WoW is not EVE online where PVP backstabbing can happen to anyone at any moment.

One player leaving a mythic dungeon (for whatever reason) should not instantly ruin the entire progress for the other 4 players.
That restriction is causing more harm than good and whatever issue blizzard wanted to solve with it should be solved in another way.

But the other 4 are not random players. You choose to play with them, they don't magically get assigned to your group like LFD (where you get a replacement).

[woodnf1]

It’s purely abusive behavior that should be banned, because 99% of the time they do it because 1 out of 5 failed so they abuse 3 out of 5 there without deserving it.

Agree 100%. I'm so tired of wasting 30 minutes in a dungeon only to have someone quit on the last boss just because we aren't going to make the timer or some other ridiculous reason.

[T-34]

But the other 4 are not random players. You choose to play with them, they don't magically get assigned to your group like LFD (where you get a replacement).

And, Blizzard clearly distinguishes between player-created groups and automatically created groups.
There are no penalties whatsoever for leaving a player-created group, whilst you get a deserter debuff if you leave or get kicked from an automatically created group.

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Agree 100%. I'm so tired of wasting 30 minutes in a dungeon only to have someone quit on the last boss just because we aren't going to make the timer or some other ridiculous reason.

That is why you should communicate with your group members before the key is started to ensure that you have the same expectations.
And leaving for "not making the timer" is perfectly normal among people that do keys for the competitive aspect and not for the gear.
The problem is when people expect or feel entitled that other people should play how they find fun and the get pikachu-faced when other people don't have the same definition of fun as they do.

That is why I always spend 30 seconds before the key is started to ensure that all in the group are on the same level. If my idea of fun differs from the rest then I leave before the key is started.

[Visor]

This is MMO-RPG. You cant rly force ppl to do something that they don't wanna do. Run with ppl who u trust. Easy solution. You cant force random ppl to play the way that you like. If you don't wanna them to fail ur key - dont invite them to your group! How to detect "bad people"? Well, most likely they have more than 100 raider.io difference with u. Ppl who have upper rating than you much more often leave ur party. So when u gather ur "pro group" just make a "smart move" - dont take ppl who looks like boosters of your group. Take ppl with similar skill level or even blow. In this case you have much higher chance to finish dungeon. But in this case it will be harder ofc. The choice is urs. I'm usually rare takes ppl with over 2100 for +15 keys if this key important for me. Because it absolutely not important to them. They are most likely absolutly don't care about completion of so ez keys.

[Aleksej89]

But the other 4 are not random players. You choose to play with them, they don't magically get assigned to your group like LFD (where you get a replacement).

If there was a history or statistic of what % of mythic dungeons they left before they were finished then yea i agree.
But since there is no such statistic you dont get to base your decision on any relevant info about them.

Frankly there should be public info about how much % mythic+ has a player abandoned.
So others know do they want to party with such a risk or not.

[Twdft]

If there was a history or statistic of what % of mythic dungeons they left before they were finished then yea i agree.
But since there is no such statistic you dont get to base your decision on any relevant info about them.

Frankly there should be public info about how much % mythic+ has a player abandoned.
So others know do they want to party with such a risk or not.

Ingame you can make suggestions to Blizzard, maybe they implement it.

Just make sure you include how an automatic system can judge if this abandoning was OK. My friends and I sometimes abandon a key when we see it's not going to be timed and go right back in one level lower. I'd hate to have my statistic screwed by this.

[Soon-TM]

If you time 15s on your alt you have a 15 key and can run your own key. If you don't have a 15 key why in the world should someone take your 800 io alt?

I never asked for some random idiot to take my alts, that's what guild is for. I've been fortunate enough to have been in a couple of really cool guilds since Legion, so I've almost never had to beg $&#@ from random strangers.

[erifwodahs]

Its not good game design when in PVE you get penalized for interacting with other random players.
WoW is not EVE online where PVP backstabbing can happen to anyone at any moment.

One player leaving a mythic dungeon (for whatever reason) should not instantly ruin the entire progress for the other 4 players.
That restriction is causing more harm than good and whatever issue blizzard wanted to solve with it should be solved in another way.

Give me a multiplayer game where you don't get "penalized" (which you don't btw) for interacting with randoms rather than set group of people?
You are not punished for playing with pugs. You get bonus security, familiarity and stability with set group. You get advantages for playing in the group, but no-one is giving you -10% int for playing with pugs.

Edit: It also is not even randoms. You choose to play with them.

[Alroxas]

Or they could just remove the key downgrade thing

Not really a solution because it leads to degenerate gameplay. Without a penalty for restarting a run, what prevents players from restarting at a whim? I could understand if it's clearly obvious that you aren't going to make the timer (e.g., 2 minutes left on the timer and you haven't even gotten to the last boss) but what about all the instances prior to that point? We had a death of 1 dps (recoverable) to we had a wipe (might not be recoverable) to we didn't pull fast enough (or large enough) to we didn't have a "perfect" execution on the first trash of the instance.

[Merlunie]

It’s purely abusive behavior that should be banned, because 99% of the time they do it because 1 out of 5 failed so they abuse 3 out of 5 there without deserving it.

If we punish leavers from bad groups can we also punish bad players? If you aren’t carrying your weight you get two options. 1) I can leave with no punishment 2) I can’t leave but you have to do 10 hours of wow head reading so you aren’t dead weight to the next group

Or you can pay me gold ������

[Alroxas]

Yes and do you also realize that every PvE mode ever allowed replacing teammates midrun too?.

Not without significant penalty. Mythic Raids for instance are on a weekly lockout shared across all the people who participated. You jump in mid-run and you're locked out of the earlier bosses that you weren't apart of.

Moreover, if M+ allowed for replacing people midrun, then that would encourage more toxic behavior. Run through a dungeon all the way up to the last boss then suddenly drop that 3rd DPS for the paid carry/fellow guildmate/etc.

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I wouldn't say massive penalty, but why not atleast flag their names when they queue up with other people groups? I think it'd be fair for other people to know if you ragequit easily.
The more they leave (ragequit), the heavier the flag under their name gets. That way I assure you they'd think twice before leaving.

How though? How does a system determine that player A is a rage quitter versus someone with a bad internet connection?

Also doesn't that just make the rage quitter double down on more toxic behavior? Instead of leaving (and everyone moves on), now you have a irate player who doesn't want to leave to get the "rage quitter" label so they do other stuff. From the passive not-really-afk-but-fuctionally-afk to the trollish going-to-pull-extra-packs "by accident" leading to repeated wipes of the entire group. How is that any better than just having them leave?

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if you AFK out, it would go the same way as /afk works in a BG, you'll get automatically removed by the game's coding. I foresee that countermeasures will most likely be added for the toxic M+ part in the future.

Except they wouldn't just /afk or let the afk timer kick them out. Instead they will move 1 step every 5s to make sure they aren't triggering the afk autokick. Or they RP walk everywhere in the dungeon. And that's just if they are being "nice" to the group.

The more likely action is that they would just play very poorly. Through either only using a filler spell/ability (and ignoring DPS cooldowns) or "accidentally" body pulling extra mobs. Or doing any number of things to screw over the group like using a root on mobs during a sanguine affix week. The possibilities are endless and it would just enrage the rest of the party so that someone else takes the "hit" for being a "rage quitter" first instead of the offending player.

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The M+ keystone system was toxic from the start

Agree to disagree right there. M+ keystone system was fine for the audience it was meant for: among friends, guildmates, communities of people where smaller size content was more convenient than raids.

The problem with M+ is that the PuG community decided to participate in it and because of the anonymity of wow suffers when bad actors do bad behavior.

Consider the same issue of PuGs in WoW Classic. With no cross realm technology enabled and no LFD/LFR, your reputation on your server meant something because if you screw up enough or were douchy enough, everyone on that server would just blacklist you.

But in modern WoW, the chance of you randomly running into the same player twice is very low.

You want to reduce M+ toxicity? Remove the anonymity or allow players to blacklist those players that they have played with.

From there take the top 100 blacklisted accounts from each region and examine those players' actions directly. If they are found to be truly toxic, then issue out suspensions/bans.

Or do the Mythic Quest version, shuffle those highly blacklisted accounts to their own server shard (and only allow them to play among each other).

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A ban isn't the way forward, but the first one to leave (or voted out) should be barred from all instance content (5man, raids, BGs, arenas), for the remainder of the weekly lockout, battle.net account wide.

What a horrible system. So then any 3~4 man group can trollishly ban regular folks at a whim via a vote? And again "first one to leave" is always a bad system because it just means that the first player that wants to leave will just behave in such a way to get someone else to leave first.

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Second; add an option to redo the dungeon in question, with same group, to lift your dungeon ban. Problem solved.

Not really. If the group is well over their head then no amount of repeats is going to help. And moreover, some players might not have the time to spend 2+ hours in a dungeon when the timer is 30~40 minutes.

I think that's worth considering is that for the leaver, sure they could spend X hours in a dungeon with a bad group or they could easily go off and join another group and complete a similar instance in the allotted time.

[Archmage Alodi]

Not really a solution because it leads to degenerate gameplay. Without a penalty for restarting a run, what prevents players from restarting at a whim? I could understand if it's clearly obvious that you aren't going to make the timer (e.g., 2 minutes left on the timer and you haven't even gotten to the last boss) but what about all the instances prior to that point? We had a death of 1 dps (recoverable) to we had a wipe (might not be recoverable) to we didn't pull fast enough (or large enough) to we didn't have a "perfect" execution on the first trash of the instance.

Fair enought, but there's going to be upsides and downsides to every change they make with the system.

[Alroxas]

Fair enought, but there's going to be upsides and downsides to every change they make with the system.

I mean what is the downside to playing with players that you know/have an existing social contract with (a la guildmates or community members)?

M+ requires players to pick and choose whom gets to go instead of an automated system that throws players together so if you're selecting people you know aren't douches... problem solved.


And for folks like @Sugarcube who have the argument: I don't want to group up with bad people/abusive people/etc. You don't have to. Make new friends or join other communities of like minded people.

If it's a sexism thing (aka guys freak out when a girl speaks on discord), then go join an all female community. Then you don't have to detail with sexist men boys.

If it's a drama thing, go find a guild/community where they have a zero tolerance on drama and regularly kick out people who violate that rule.

Does it take effort? You bet, but there exists community if folks go look for them.

[arkanon]

The problem as I see it is the game is becoming more and more built around pugging, instead of guilds. What I mean is many of the changes that have pissed people off were done purely to benefit / protect pugs – the master loot change is a prime example. For the pug community, this is a great change, protecting their “right” to loot – for guild groups it was kind of a pain in the ass.

If everyone played with guildies, the M+ scene would be VERY different, but im not suggesting that is the solution, or a realistic possibility, but I am concerned that more and more people are rejecting the idea of joining a guild and instead want Blizzard to cater the game more and more towards random, anonymous pugs. The problem with the crazy change suggested by OP is it would absolutely screw people over, even if they are playing with friends.

Even if they added a system of reports, where if a person left the group, the remaining members got an option to report that person, that would protect groups of friends who dont want to punish someone who had to leave. However, it again leaves the system open to serious abuse - form group with 3 friends and a pug - kick the pug - report the pug - banned for a week.

Under the proposed system, one "solution" is that if the person is removed, they dont get the ban, only if they leave by themselves - the problem there is no one would leave - they would just alt+f4 and walk off, or just alt tab and walk off, or just walk off.........