I dont want “renewal”. Here is why.

[Nerovar]

I still don't understand why people thinks the "War" in Warcraft has to refer to the war between Horde and Alliance, that narrative has been forced for fuckin' ages. Azeroth and the world as a whole is generally, constantly in war with something, so why does the Horde vs Alliance War matter so much?

Because "Orcs vs Humans" is the foundation of the entire setting. Many people consider further eroding this foundation a departure from what makes Warcraft Warcraft.

[Irian]

You do know that there's three letters in the game that make why the "annual war crime whoopsie" can't not happen right? It is called World of WARcraft....

There was a war against Illidan's forces, the Scourge, the Twilight's Hammer cult, Garrosh's Horde, the Iron Horde, the Legion, N'zoth, and now the Mawsworn. There is a ton of war in warcraft without the alliance/horde conflict.

Let's face it, they will never allow either faction to do anything meaningful. This is a pretend-war because they're afraid of even slightly upsetting one faction. Can we move on to something that isn't a waste of narrative effort and time?

[montybadleford]

Theramore: Garrosh nukes it, gets away with it, keeps control and support of the Horde until he backstabs Vol'jin. Before that everyone kept following him even after Theramore. Somehow survives MoP and goes on to launch WoD. Dies in WoD and returns in Shadowlands to get a glorifying cameo that was the spotlight of 9.1.

Teldrassil: Sylvanas nukes it, smiles while doing so, gets away with it, later on is besieged, cornered, surrounded by the Alliance but somehow still escapes while giving the middle finger to the Alliance, somehow still keeps control of the Horde even after all the mess with Garrosh ON TOP of the 2 war crimes she already committed (this is just the pre-patch of BfA btw), still keeps popular support until she tries to kill the burger Baine, then when she betrays literally everyone she STILL gets away with it and doesn't die, is in the process of being redeemed while Elune tells Tyrande to stop being angry that her people got exterminated.

So Yes, the Horde committed genocide twice and got away with it twice while looking good and badass.

Meanwhile Jaina kills 20 elves in Dalaran once and the entire Alliance (in-universe), Horde, and community hates her, it's clear that the Alliance is never allowed to have balls. They can't even make incidents, Alleria does an oopsie at the Sunwell and everyone treats her like she's the second coming of Satan. Meanwhile we got the Forsaken experimenting with the living and developing dangerous toxins since Classic but no one cares.

The Alliance is literally neutered. But now that Turalyon is High King hopefully they will take a more direct approach. Which doesn't equate to committing genocide, but it does equate to not let the Horde walk on them any further. And by "walk on them" I mean "stomp them and grind them to dust".

As far as BfA is concerned, it was the Alliance that was on the offensive most of the time after the burning of Teldrassil. The Alliance invaded the Undercity, then invaded Dazar'Alor, then recovered Darkshore, and eventually advanced to Orgrimmar. What did the Horde invade? Arathi (which they weren't able to hold), and then their own Orgrimmar (where seemingly the only important casualty was Saurfang, and he was Horde) and that's it. They ended up losing all the Warfronts, and the outcome of the Battle of Dazar'Alor was worse for the Horde than the Alliance. Overall I'd say the Horde didn't "get away" with nothing.

[Aresk]

As far as BfA is concerned, it was the Alliance that was on the offensive most of the time after the burning of Teldrassil. The Alliance invaded the Undercity, then invaded Dazar'Alor, then recovered Darkshore, and eventually advanced to Orgrimmar. What did the Horde invade? Arathi (which they weren't able to hold), and then their own Orgrimmar (where seemingly the only important casualty was Saurfang, and he was Horde) and that's it. They ended up losing all the Warfronts, and the outcome of the Battle of Dazar'Alor was worse for the Horde than the Alliance. Overall I'd say the Horde didn't "get away" with nothing.

The Horde also invaded Anglepoint Wharf and Brennadam in force, but it wasn't shown to the Horde player. Also, it seems odd to arbitrarily decide to start counting after Teldrassil, given that the War of Thorns was the invasion that kicked off everything else. But with that arbitrary start (and listing Darkshore as an Alliance invasion), we have...

Alliance: Undercity, Dazar'alor, Darkshore, Orgrimmar
Horde: Arathi, Orgrimmar, Anglepoint Wharf, Brennadam

Seems even to me.

[PenguinChan]

Because "Orcs vs Humans" is the foundation of the entire setting. Many people consider further eroding this foundation a departure from what makes Warcraft Warcraft.

Which is all well and good, if they didn't have faction leaders or important figures and races (figuratively) blowing each other behind the curtains half the time, and making peace - and the other half gutting one another over a snapped twig in the forest.

This very forum shows both sides of this too. How many people are extremely angry at Anduin and Baine for trying to have peace, or in the books and such? And vice versa? Unfortunately Blizzard can't keep a consistent narrative without disregarding everything happening to push into another expansion.

[Nerovar]

Which is all well and good, if they didn't have faction leaders or important figures and races (figuratively) blowing each other behind the curtains half the time, and making peace - and the other half gutting one another over a snapped twig in the forest.

This very forum shows both sides of this too. How many people are extremely angry at Anduin and Baine for trying to have peace, or in the books and such? And vice versa? Unfortunately Blizzard can't keep a consistent narrative without disregarding everything happening to push into another expansion.

This is what I alluded to in an earlier post. They're trying to appease both factions of the playerbase and by doing so, create a world devoid of meaningful story developments where every character is a schizophrenic with amnesia.

[Swnem]

You do know that there's three letters in the game that make why the "annual war crime whoopsie" can't not happen right? It is called World of WARcraft....

The war doesn't have to be between the alliance and horde. It's an overdone trope now.
The story wants to move on from it and so do players. I agree with the OP, the game design should too.

[PenguinChan]

This is what I alluded to in an earlier post. They're trying to appease both factions of the playerbase and by doing so, create a world devoid of meaningful story developments where every character is a schizophrenic with amnesia.

Which makes no sense, it creates meaningless experiences and ultimately has people forgetting a lot of what had or is happening because of it. I really hope one day the lore department bunkers down, and creates a new arc that they follow. As hogwash as the Classic - Legion arc was (Overall), it's still some kind of arc they had in writing form.

It honestly feels like since then, they don't know what to do or haven't really focused all that hard in making a cohesive, interesting narrative.

[VladlTutushkin]

For PvE purposes i agree. Lore supports it as well. For PvP - hell no. I don't want World of Peacecraft, friendship and love.

Interestingly enough you already CAN do crossfaction PvP.

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Doesnt the argument about forgiveness fall flat when the resolution with Sylvanas hasn’t happened? “What fans think is going to happen “ isn’t an argument: Sylvanas could blow herself into pieces and be triple dead in a few patches.

I understand it about the Bad Horde in BFA not getting punished, but that’s a limitation of the game. Sylvanas Loyalists aren’t going to be forced to pay reparations or beat up IRL.

NPCs can. Nobody says that players should do anything.

[Triceron]

So the war Alliance and Horde get put on the backburner. It's not peace, it's just not pertinent at the time.

Instead the Horde and the Alliance can join covenants. Players within a covenant are friendly to each other and can communicate. Players from different covenants are hostile but can communicate along faction lines.

The covenants fucking hate each other. It's a complete war between all of them.

I love how there's war between Covenants but absoutely no emnity between players/characters who rep Covenants and openly team up with members of any Covenant, or PVP against players of their own Covenant as if they don't matter at all.

War may exist between the Covenants, but as players we're seeing absolutely none of it. There's literally zero PVP content in Shadowlands built around Covenant conflict right now.

As far as Covenants go, it literally is Peacecraft between characters. The only real war being perpetuated is the Alliance v Horde conflict, and only because everything social like Guilds, Raiding and PVP all depend on the faction split. Covenants? You can team up with anyone of any Covenant any time you want, and visit any of the zones without repercussions of getting flagged as a hostile invader.

[Hobbidaggy]

Okay. Then why must it always be the Horde that does it and looks cool and badass while doing it?

For instance, why can't the Alliance nuke Orgrimmar using the Vindicaar, leaving only ashes and charred buildings behind?

Why must it always be the Horde that gets to be in control of the plot and dictate what happens? First in MoP with Theramore and then in BfA with Teldrassil.

And btw, I'm sure that if Alliance nuked Orgrimmar you wouldn't complain... Nah not at all! You'd just say "oh well it's Warcraft, it happens"... right? Right.

Or if Alleria caused the Sunwell to explode and obliterated Silvermoon, I'm sure you'd just say "oh well it's Warcraft, war crimes happen"...

This might be what is coming with the stand in Ling of Stormwind while Anduin is off having fun with his new Jailer friend.

The Light expansion is coming. There will be a rift formed between Tyralion and Alleria. Both are aspects of their nature. Light and Void. There will be problems that occur here. Possibly a revamped sunwell raid where it’s an attack on the sunwell and the void is trying to take over and we have to fight with the light to save it.

It would be cool I think to choose a faction like scyrer/aldor where we choose the light or void and the raids are from the perspective of that faction like how we did the BFA raid from both horde and alliance perspectives.

Both trying to wipe out the opposite “faction” of light or void

[gaymer77]

I don't see where it says Alliance and Horde must be in a constant stat of war. Just fighting the big bad PVE baddies fulfills the warcraft part then.

I was referencing your "Craft is in the name too. So why isn't the game based on crafting everything?". War + craft =/= warcraft. Warcraft is its own word. Its along the same lines as "idiot savant" does not mean an idiot who is educated like the two words put together would imply. Same as taking the word "relationship" and breaking it down into "relation" and "ship" implying that its a bond by blood/marriage to a water vessel.

[huth]

Because "Orcs vs Humans" is the foundation of the entire setting. Many people consider further eroding this foundation a departure from what makes Warcraft Warcraft.

Pre-WC3, you mean. WC3 was released closer to WC1 than to SL. Not much of a foundation. Many people are utterly deluded on what the story is about.

[Powerogue]

Sylvanas will just give her own head to Tyrande.

I have checks with little poodles on them. I won't be needing this anymore. * removes head * Farewell, Tyrande.


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Its either Kerrigan scenario with her becoming a new “death goddess” or her escaping and becoming neutral.

You know, would be fun if Tyrande just stabbed Thrall when they come back to Azeroth if he tried to talk with her, stating that “you forgot about the deal already?”.

That would be hilarious. That's the thing, even if Tyrande is willing to work towards the healing of her people, laying down the out of control rage of the night warrior, it's not her I'm concerned about here. Thrall made a promise. A promise that, on the honor of the Horde, as proof that "the Horde has changed" are more than empty words. This matters.

We're not talking something ancient, obscure, or irrelevant to SL, this is the prequel book for Shadowlands. Shadows Rising. Even by Blizzard's sometimes short-term memory on writing lore expansion-by-expansion, we need proper closure.

[Ersula]

Elune stans need to explain the logic of allowing Tyrande vengence for something Elune *wanted to happen*.

You need a better explaination than *she's a god* because there is a clear double standard when Elune or Illidan kill people to achieve what they believe is the greater good, while Sylvanas needs to be punished for doing the exact same thing.

[Powerogue]

Elune stans need to explain the logic of allowing Tyrande vengence for something Elune *wanted to happen*.

You need a better explaination than *she's a god* because there is a clear double standard when Elune or Illidan kill people to achieve what they believe is the greater good, while Sylvanas needs to be punished for doing the exact same thing.

That's a huge misinterpretation of the Elune cutscene and for another thread. Taliesin did a good breakdown on it. Elune did not want, or in any way cause, Teldrassil burning. Her failures were in not understanding what was happening in the realm of the dead, both from not being connected to it and that those who did, like the Winter Queen, didn't know at the time either. Messed up? Absolutely. Could've done more? Unclear since we don't know Elune's power level.

[Ersula]

That's a huge misinterpretation of the Elune cutscene and for another thread. Taliesin did a good breakdown on it. Elune did not want, or in any way cause, Teldrassil burning. Her failures were in not understanding what was happening in the realm of the dead, both from not being connected to it and that those who did, like the Winter Queen, didn't know at the time either. Messed up? Absolutely. Could've done more? Unclear since we don't know Elune's power level.

Then with that reading, she didn't actually want to help her sister. You can't have it both ways, especially considering the Night Elves have gone thousands of years without any major calamity. Either this is what she intended, or she was fully prepared to do nothing to help the Winter Queen's plight.

Elune & Sylvanas: These are both women willing to treat lives as their personal playthings, in order to fix a giant existential problem, & they both failed.... only one is supposed to be punished & the other, forgiven, completely at random by the writing.

[aceperson]

why does it seem like we never get a good revenge story in wow? revenge stories would drive the WAR part of warcraft quite nicely.

[VladlTutushkin]

I have checks with little poodles on them. I won't be needing this anymore. * removes head * Farewell, Tyrande.


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That would be hilarious. That's the thing, even if Tyrande is willing to work towards the healing of her people, laying down the out of control rage of the night warrior, it's not her I'm concerned about here. Thrall made a promise. A promise that, on the honor of the Horde, as proof that "the Horde has changed" are more than empty words. This matters.

We're not talking something ancient, obscure, or irrelevant to SL, this is the prequel book for Shadowlands. Shadows Rising. Even by Blizzard's sometimes short-term memory on writing lore expansion-by-expansion, we need proper closure.

Because its actually laughable how easy Thrall managed to broker it. He deserves a medal at least. Reparations? Nope. Compensation? Nope. Open court over war criminals? Nope. “Purge” of the military? Nope.

He bargained ALL of Horde’s crimes for the cost of one head that wasnt even serving Horde anymore. Its some next level Speech check.

And then game refuses us even that.

Its like having your pay cut in half, then in half and again and then be promised a leftover food from cafeteria and even that gets taken away.

[Icelin]

Imagine if Forsaken were some decrepit, barely surviving caretakers of Lordaeron, meekly protesting when Alliance chad paladins ride in and start setting up huge fuck-off churches and taking over their land. But at least Forsaken would have had a “lot of content” related to some dusty ruins and history channel level stuff.

Me likey paladins, more so scarlets.

Sylvanas WAS the forsaken, she MADE then, they were nothing before her, they are literally devoid of all narrative and focus now and will have to be lead by an alliance character, showing how fucked up they are.

She did make them. That's why I think it is hard for Blizzard to detach the Forsaken from this character. I said this quite a while ago.. a lot of people didn't seem interested in having a new leader for that race.

Forsaken have no leader… for now. When they get one it will be Voss with Calia being an advisor, and dont worry you will keep the torture racks and blight vats, they will never dare to declaw you.

I know some others been wanting Voss to become the new leader, but I am not down with this idea. If I had to pick between the two, I would give it to Calia at least she has royality roots tied in with hugely popular character in this franchise which is Arthas. Plus I like her mog, so that helps.

Was having this discussion and someone mentioned why can't Arthas just become the new leader of the Forsaken? Honestly I think a lot of people wouldn't enjoy that, but it was a recommendation I have never heard of before.

Ultimately I think the best bet since it's a touchy subject.. if Sylvanas will not remain the leader...

I think it is best to stick with the council route. Which would would mean Voss and Calia would be on it. Personally myself I would add a couple of fun characters to the council to potentially make awesome chemistry on the council. Which I have always informed people I love the whole apothecary vibe so like some guy that fits that mold. Personally I am down with a warlock for this. (Since it is popular with that race) Rogue is taken with Voss so she can lead secret operatives..but I probably would've put a dude there. Still position already filled. So maybe an undead general/warrior guy for battle tactics. They could add even more if they wanted... oh just don't make the male Forsaken be footstools for women and have zero personality and I think they will be ok. *cough* Nathanos *cough* (which a lot of customers seemed to really dislike..) Make all the characters have their own strengths and weaknesses.

The game is sorely lacking some fun characters. This is why I feel Bwonsamdi was such a hit. I personally enjoyed Flynn quite a bit..cause they were fun. SL kinda suffers from seriousness, but it's fine if it ends like that. I would rather it end on a solemn note. If it even gets to end.

Digressing, some people might not enjoy the council route they already set up. Still the Blood Elves already have this kinda set up and I felt like it worked fine. It's just one character tends to hog the spotlight...

Its funny that you brought "sadfang" into this conversation because Saurfang is a clearly example of how orcs get worse treatment than night elves in this game by a mile

Yes sadorcs. Nobody wants wallowing in depression orcs anymore. I offered a couple solutions already. Would be nice for them to be more lively again.

Also Sylvanas becoming Light worshipper again (for example) and basically converting into “goodie two shoes” mode is not worse then dying? Well fuck! Why do you hate Baine so much then, hmmm? Or Sadfang? Yeah. Leaders better off dead then becoming something opposite of what they were.

Well... how people feel about certain characters being wetnoodle leaders. This is how I feel about Voss, tbh Calia isn't that much better since she is peaceful. The game seems to suffer from monotone characters.

This is what night elves are. Literal embodiment of impotence. Their “biggest deal ever” aka the Night Warrior reduced to a wet fart and thrown back to a cauldron of peace.

Well... Tyrande beheaded Sylvana's lover. (To much of the glee of the customers. I honestly wasn't in that boat but whatever...) She went on a rampage that you literally had to follow piles of corpses to find her...a long with taking down a big guy in a cinematic. It's not enough retribution for you?

Let's switch this, what if Sylvanas beheaded Malfurion. I mean it seems kinda harsh to me, but to each their own. Sylvanas lost someone she was attached to. Why is it less drastic? Because people didn't particularly like Nathanos?

If anything, one could understand how unsatisfying things would be if redemption did not come at a cost equal to weight of the crimes committed, as this is what happens all the time when powerful people and politicians get away with crimes/corruption with no penalty

Both of the above concepts combined is very frustrating with the WoW narrative, as one provides a very unsatisfying resolution that lacks restitution and the other forces you to accept it with no agency or recourse within the confines of the game.

What else do people need? They can continue on with this if they really wanted to. Tie it into the finale somehow.. (Which people keep asking for) I prefer Tyrande is in the right state of mind to deal with it. Instead of blind rage.