Do Healers have to DPS now during down time in between heals?

[Fenrys]

without any healer its probably impossible.

but last season i did one 16 PF with literaly 170 itlv resto shammy . ofc rest of team was in 220+ gear and properly coordinated on voice comme - managed to time it without issuses .

thats why when i see people who fail there geared to the teeths and blame blizzard for it - its just lol.

If a Grievous mists 19 (last season( can be done without a healer (or 17 halls, 16 ToP), I see no reason that any 15 couldn't be done sans healer

https://www.wowhead.com/news/no-heal...-healer-321693

[Kalisandra]

Oh and if one of your healers dies because they fucked up mechanics? Oops, you just wiped because the others can't keep up anymore

How is that different from a fight where if one of your DPS dies you wipe because you can't make the DPS check? Plenty of those in WoW's raiding history. Or how about the standard situation for about the last decade where if a tank dies and you're out of battle rezzes, you wipe because you MUST have two tanks up and functional? How it okay for losing a tank or DPS to force a wipe, but not okay for losing a healer to do so? Talk about healers being second-class citizens.

[Fenrys]

Healers have to dps now? You can be a good healer even if you dont dps. I think people are mixing up ”good” with ”excellent”.

I don't think anyone's position on this is that you *have* to dps. Rather it is an aspect of healer skill, and if you ignore it, you won't be as good as the healers who know when and how to dps effectively. Its also has a significant enough impact on most forms of content such that if you ignore it, you probably (but not necessarily, as being sufficiently skilled in other areas could make up for the deficit) aren't even a good healer

[El Gucaragua]

It is not required in any content, there is 3 healers that include dmg for thier actual healing but the others gain nothing to thier healing through dmg, infact they should just remove healers doing dps completely, a healers job is healing and not have to do dps because players in the raid are not playing a dps class as well as they should.

Just flat out wrong...

[s_bushido]

I'm curious as to why though..
As a dps your job isn't to heal
As a healer your job (in your mind) isn't to dps

Why are you okay with one but not the other?

I can't speak for him, but it's pretty easy to tell you why from my perspective:
-While a mob is alive, there will rarely be a time when you can't be actively dpsing (outside of scripted intermissions).
-While a mob is alive, there will be many times when you can't be actively healing (because health bars aren't doing down).

That's really all there is to it. And if a dps has an opportunity to do something like dispel, pop an off-heal, or pop a personal/group defensive and they choose not to, they're just as poor a player as a healer who outright refuses to dps.

[Temp name]

How is that different from a fight where if one of your DPS dies you wipe because you can't make the DPS check? Plenty of those in WoW's raiding history. Or how about the standard situation for about the last decade where if a tank dies and you're out of battle rezzes, you wipe because you MUST have two tanks up and functional? How it okay for losing a tank or DPS to force a wipe, but not okay for losing a healer to do so? Talk about healers being second-class citizens.

Because they are. Healers are brought because you need them, not because you want them.
A healer doesn't kill the boss, but you need them to keep the people who do, alive

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It's really pathetic how healers have been unbalanced for a very long time (paladin has been in every wf kill but 1 since I believe wrath, Shaman or Disc have taken up most of the remaining spot over the past five years, RDruid, Mistweaver, and Holy Priest have barely been represented at all).

And that also comes down to healer utility
If a paladin does as much healing as a druid, why should I bring a druid when the paladin offers more dps, and also has damage reduction CDs?
Why should I bring a holy priest when the disc will do more dps and has a lot of absorbs
Why should I bring a monk when a shaman does the same healing, while offering things like Spirit link and other strong CDs?

In order for you to want to bring druid/holy priest/monk they need to do more healing than the others, or have another niche they excel at.

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I can't speak for him, but it's pretty easy to tell you why from my perspective:
-While a mob is alive, there will rarely be a time when you can't be actively dpsing (outside of scripted intermissions).
-While a mob is alive, there will be many times when you can't be actively healing (because health bars aren't doing down).

That's really all there is to it. And if a dps has an opportunity to do something like dispel, pop an off-heal, or pop a personal/group defensive and they choose not to, they're just as poor a player as a healer who outright refuses to dps.

And yet he likes to do one while having to do the other made him put away being a healer..

Bit weird, but hey, humans are weird

[prwraith]

Meh I enjoyed healer when it wasn't a pseudo DPS. It's why I don't play them anymore, I wanted to heal not dps.

[Kalisandra]

Because they are. Healers are brought because you need them, not because you want them.
A healer doesn't kill the boss, but you need them to keep the people who do, alive

That logic applies to the tanks, too. You only want them because without them the mobs kill the DPS and healers. So why aren't tanks treated the same as healers? Instead, losing a tank is a wipe if you can't get them back up in almost every fight, and fights are designed so that you need two (in raids) or one (in five-mans) no more, no less (and Blizzard considers it a failure of design if players find a way around this).

[kenn9530]

Sorry mate, its not possible to have a constructive conversation about this if you aren't going to read a word I say or at least engage in good faith. I would agree with Elbob below that it seems very unlikely you do any sort of difficult content at all. That is fine - not everyone needs to be in Limit - but you have at the at the very least implied you are raiding at a decent level.

I do cutting edge content and have done realm first content in the past so im capable of the hardest content WoW has to offer, im not saying i as a healer dont do damage as needed when i know the fights well enough, what i am saying its not needed and it shouldnt be designed that way in the first place, healing was most fun back in WotlK where you couldnt even waste 1 single gcd or a tank might die.

My whole point is that the content can be cleared regardless of a healer doing some damage and that includes mythic end raid bosses in the current tier, its a healers choice if they want to do damage or not and does not reflect skill in anyway on the player because doing some damage has nothing to do with skill.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

what i am saying its not needed and it shouldnt be designed that way in the first place

And here, ladies and gentlemen, the crux of almost 10 pages of back and forth.


I am in agreement that it shouldn't be, but that doesn't change the current design favors it. And because a distinct advantage comes from when healers doing DPS both in high Mythic+ and Mythic Raiding sets them apart from healers who don't at all (and thus those dungeon/raid groups), the proof is there that if they can then they should.

My whole point is that the content can be cleared regardless of a healer doing some damage

So, once again... they can but it's not optimal and can be, quite often, detrimental. And the point of context here is higher end content.


I mean your experience in your M+ and raids is certainly your experience... but there is an entirely opposite experience being had out there which accomplishes the same goal but in some cases... quicker and more efficiently. Take that for what you will.

[callipygoustp]

I've gotten so used to seeing how high I can push my dps, I am now finding myself getting a bit miffed when I'm in groups that require so much healing that I CAN'T dps. Kind of ridiculous on my part, but, there it is.

"God dam you people forcing me out of kitty!!!"

[Fenrys]

I do cutting edge content and have done realm first content in the past so im capable of the hardest content WoW has to offer, im not saying i as a healer dont do damage as needed when i know the fights well enough, what i am saying its not needed and it shouldnt be designed that way in the first place, healing was most fun back in WotlK where you couldnt even waste 1 single gcd or a tank might die.

My whole point is that the content can be cleared regardless of a healer doing some damage and that includes mythic end raid bosses in the current tier, its a healers choice if they want to do damage or not and does not reflect skill in anyway on the player because doing some damage has nothing to do with skill.

I'm afraid I'm a bit sceptical of that claim. Its not the damage thing (or at least not that alone) which makes me doubt you by the way, its the fact that no decent raider thinks healer parses are worth jack shit.

Obviously you do, do some damage (you've admitted so yourself). Why do you do it, if it isn't optimal? If it is the optimal way to play, how cannot it not be a part of healer skill? All mythic bosses can be completed with all sorts of non-optimal play - that doesn't support your point in the slightest. Hell, you can do Mythic Sylvanus with a guy afk the whole fight, just because you can do something without it doesn't mean its not optimal. If its optimal, its part of the skillset.

[Tyris Flare]

And just to refocus on the core problem with this setup right now, here's a 100th percentile parse by spec in Sanguine Depths:

HPally: 6,212
Resto Druid: 1,871
Resto Shaman: 2,611
Disc: 2,986 (plus PI)
Monk: 2,826
HPriest: 1,603

It's just unbelievably unbalanced. They acknowledged healer dps was a problem well before 9.1 in Ion's interview with Preach, but they did nothing to fix it. It's really pathetic how healers have been unbalanced for a very long time (paladin has been in every wf kill but 1 since I believe wrath, Shaman or Disc have taken up most of the remaining spot over the past five years, RDruid, Mistweaver, and Holy Priest have barely been represented at all).

Yeah, 100% this. Holy paladins are beyond broken for this content. Though I frankly I just think that other healers should do more damage.

But going back to another point, bursting week is an interesting case study in healers needing to heal more (usually) and its literally just because there is almost constant ticking damage. That's the only solution if you want them to heal all the time, and it's pretty boring

[Deneios]

Yeah, 100% this. Holy paladins are beyond broken for this content. Though I frankly I just think that other healers should do more damage.

But going back to another point, bursting week is an interesting case study in healers needing to heal more (usually) and its literally just because there is almost constant ticking damage. That's the only solution if you want them to heal all the time, and it's pretty boring

I think that is just venthyr holypaladins being broken with their covenant ability. A room wide aoe that deals dmg and heals allowing the paladin to just go ham with their do dmg and heal everybody cd.

[Mokrath]

Even doing the most casual of content I always DPS on my healers. If you never DPS you just end up with tons of downtime unless the group is just terrible. On my Shaman, for instance, I will drop healing rain and/or totems and unless the tank is getting chunked I start doing DPS. If it's a dungeon with a lot of time between bosses I might even drop my Healing Tide Totem and just go full DPS.

I can't imagine only healing and never tossing out damage, but I've seen plenty of healers do just that. They are usually also of the mindset that HPS is an important number.

[kenn9530]

I'm afraid I'm a bit sceptical of that claim. Its not the damage thing (or at least not that alone) which makes me doubt you by the way, its the fact that no decent raider thinks healer parses are worth jack shit.

Obviously you do, do some damage (you've admitted so yourself). Why do you do it, if it isn't optimal? If it is the optimal way to play, how cannot it not be a part of healer skill? All mythic bosses can be completed with all sorts of non-optimal play - that doesn't support your point in the slightest. Hell, you can do Mythic Sylvanus with a guy afk the whole fight, just because you can do something without it doesn't mean its not optimal. If its optimal, its part of the skillset.

WoW doesnt have much to offer, even clearing CE is not that interesting and the content usually gets boring very fast, so all there is to do is push your logs and push the limits of what the class can actually do, why do you think ppl push for high parses in the first place because they want to be seen on the leaderboards.

I wouldnt mind all healers doing much more dmg but casting dmg spells should have an effect on your available mana, the game is way too easy and all the ways that made it more challenging have long since gone.

[Kyanion]

WoW doesnt have much to offer, even clearing CE is not that interesting and the content usually gets boring very fast, so all there is to do is push your logs and push the limits of what the class can actually do, why do you think ppl push for high parses in the first place because they want to be seen on the leaderboards.

I wouldnt mind all healers doing much more dmg but casting dmg spells should have an effect on your available mana, the game is way too easy and all the ways that made it more challenging have long since gone.

Sounds like someone that does not push cutting edge content. I am also quite skeptical of your claims. The game has always been pushing the limits of what your class can do, more now than ever when it comes to healers and doing damage in a meaningful way. What did you do in WotLK? Cleared the raids. What did you do the next week? Clear the raid but see if you can do it faster, more efficient? Of course. It is not always about being 'seen' on the leaderboards, some people enjoy doing everything their class can do contributing as much as possible to a raid kill. Even people in casual normal/heroic (hell even casual mythic guilds) guilds that aren't about leaderboards want to do well and the following week do it better.

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I'm afraid I'm a bit sceptical of that claim. Its not the damage thing (or at least not that alone) which makes me doubt you by the way, its the fact that no decent raider thinks healer parses are worth jack shit.

Yeah reads as someone that did something 10+ years ago and thinks that experience translates into current mythic raiding and m+ pushing. A healer that is standing around doing jack shit when there is no healing to be done is a burden on the rest of the players in a group. Some groups/raids can handle it, but things are just smoother (and die faster) with a healer pumping out good damage when there is no healing to be done.

[Diaphin]

I do cutting edge content and have done realm first content in the past so im capable of the hardest content WoW has to offer, im not saying i as a healer dont do damage as needed when i know the fights well enough, what i am saying its not needed and it shouldnt be designed that way in the first place, healing was most fun back in WotlK where you couldnt even waste 1 single gcd or a tank might die.

My whole point is that the content can be cleared regardless of a healer doing some damage and that includes mythic end raid bosses in the current tier, its a healers choice if they want to do damage or not and does not reflect skill in anyway on the player because doing some damage has nothing to do with skill.

It kind of does, because a healer who isn't doing optimal dps even if the other players use their personal mitigation and avoid avoidable damage, it means they are not healing optimally or they are just doing nothing and let themselves be carried during downtimes. In most content, you don't need dps players do optimal damage or tank players using their active mitigation optimally either. Yet, you never see dps players advocating for being allowed to do nothing or stop further optimizing their play when they reach their personal minimum dps to beat a certain encounter, neither do you see tanks advocating for just using the minimum of mitigation or dps to beat an encounter and do nothing in the downtime.

You just have no leg to stand on. A good healer who heals optimally will, with an equally competent group, experience downtimes in which they only have the options of overhealing, doing nothing or dpsing. As neither overhealing nor doing nothing improves the overall group performance, dpsing is the way to go to optimize your contribution to the group. You are just entitled.

The problem is also that you can't decrease downtimes in an efficent manner without increasing the skill floor for healers to even perform their job at the minimum level of keeping the group alive, because it would mean to vastly increase unavoidable damage receives in a meaningful way. Encounters which on optimal play creat not a single gcd of downtime would mean to make the skill floor and the skill ceiling one and the same. Creating room between skill floor and skill ceiling means necessarily to design encounters which on optimal play will leave open gcds which can and should be utilized for dps casts if played optimally. Its plain logic. What you demand can't work in a modern mmo which doesn't actually enforces down times on mana-using classes and allows for a playstyle in which every single potential gcd can actually be used to click a button.

Then there is the issue that you have 3 heal specs which are designed for utilizing dps spells to improve ones healing capabilities, with one being build arround using dps spells to heal allies. You would need to fully cut those specs out.

Healers doing dps is just the result of a game which moved from a highly slow pace and the mana-system enforcing downtimes to sustain ones healing and damaging capabilities over the course of an entire time to one which is more fast paced and allows for every 1,5 seconds of a fight to press a button. What Blizzard should do and once has done should be to design healing classes in a way that teaches players to utilize their damage spells during downtimes, just like Tanks are designed in a fashion that active mitigation encourages them to utilize a basic dps rotation to keep up their active mitigation. The issue of specs like holy priest, restoration shaman and restoration druid is, that their class design doesn't teaches new and inexperienced players just as much as oldschool players who missed the mark to weave in damaging spells during healing downtimes, while with holy paladins and mistweaver monks these mechanics are gated behind optional talents which may creat situations in which newer players will not understand that they can optimize their healing through picking these talents and weave in dps spells to activate them.

The only solution for the whole argument and to decrease frustrations of players who reach a level where dps will be expected of them during downtimes is for every single healing spec to have some synergy between their heal and dps kit. Again, it works with Tanks. There are no tanks which cry about being offended to utilize their dps rotation beyond holding basic aggro, because their dps rotation and their basic mitigation (or ressource generation for basic mitigation) are one and the same.

[Rubim]

WoW doesnt have much to offer, even clearing CE is not that interesting and the content usually gets boring very fast, so all there is to do is push your logs and push the limits of what the class can actually do, why do you think ppl push for high parses in the first place because they want to be seen on the leaderboards.

I wouldnt mind all healers doing much more dmg but casting dmg spells should have an effect on your available mana, the game is way too easy and all the ways that made it more challenging have long since gone.

It`s only a healer choice if you're a bad healer.

Your job is to keep people alive, not necesary heal. As the best healer in the whole world once said: DPS is mitigating future damage.

[kamuimac]

I think that is just venthyr holypaladins being broken with their covenant ability. A room wide aoe that deals dmg and heals allowing the paladin to just go ham with their do dmg and heal everybody cd.

the downside of this cd is that is has very long cd compared to other covenant cds. so its extremly situational and requires very risky pulls to shine.