Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[MoFubuki13]

Nice write up of all the fan concepts from the last years. If not for this line the biggest example of that lack of decisiveness is the fact that we literally do not know what the next expansion is going to be yet some could rate it as real.

This is an unprecedented situation.

Even before the lawsuit, we have never been this late into the development cycle of an expansion without having established its branding and theme. The negative reception of Shadowlands genuinely shocked most of us, even if its faults are now glaringly obvious. However, as I stated, it isn't as if we haven't started work on the next expansion. Most of the actual systems are well into development, some dungeon and raid fights have been conceptualized mechanically, and so on. The concept art bible material is available for both, as the Wrathion concept has been explored as a potential setting for over half a decade now (or earlier, if you want to include really early stuff from the original WoW concept art), and the cosmic setting would heavily lean on the Oribos / Titan / First One aesthetics that have already been established. Even in a best case scenario, the in-game cinematic team wouldn't be putting in much work on the next expansion for a good while.

We're ready to act, either way, but we are, and have been, very anxious that a direction has not been chosen. We were expecting it well before 9.1 launched. I would assume that management was getting ready to or had settled on something prior to the lawsuit and the ensuing chaos threw everything into question, but that would be speculation. I can only offer perspective on what is immediately relevant to my position, or things I've heard through the grapevine and trust.

If you believe nothing else, all I ask is that you believe that we are trying our best given the circumstances. There are a lot of very talented, very passionate, and very caring people that work here, but we're all being viewed through an unfair lens right now because of the actions and inaction of certain individuals in management.

- - - Updated - - -

I think you can tell by this sentence that it is fake

"Unfortunately, Shadowlands has not been received well in any respect (and we are not blind to this)"

But really nice mock-up

Honestly, we know.

We just haven't been receiving clear direction lately, exacerbated by the current situation, so we haven't been able to stick the landing for a few things. This is particularly pronounced when we have multiple teams working on the same system, but no communication between them, so those different design decisions clash when it comes time to put everything together.

[Nyel]

Ain’t Zovaal supposed to be a bigger foe than Sargeras tho?

In Blizzard's head maybe.

[draugril]

In Blizzard's head maybe.

I think that was exclusively Ion trying to hype up this expansion as something interesting rather than something that has any kind of bearing on the internal consistency of the lore.

[Nyel]

Eh, I'll dismiss it for a few reasons, but this isn't one of them. They detailed that they were working on the new expansion. It was simply the theme that they hadn't settled on yet. You can start building a house before you choose the color of the siding.

If you don't set the theme for the expansion you cannot work on it, especially when they're so different. You can't work on art assets, you can't work on features etc. The first thing you need to have is the framework and that's basically the theme / setting where all of your features take place.

If it would be a decision between a) a dragon isle continent or b) dragon themed zones spread around the world it makes sense as the theme is set, but not when it's either some cosmic bs x1000 or dragon isles. They have nothing in common where you can just set the theme last minute.

[draugril]

If you don't set the theme for the expansion you cannot work on it, especially when they're so different. You can't work on art assets, you can't work on features etc. The first thing you need to have is the framework and that's basically the theme / setting where all of your features take place.

Why would a systems designer need to know what color the abilities he is designing are before he designs them? Do you need an understanding of the Ashbringer's history before you can design a power progression tree for a Retribution Paladin? Do you need to know what kind of shoes the boss is wearing before you design the mechanics of the encounter?

There's a lot you can do before you put the final paint job on something.

I mean, I doubt we'll get housing and I'm nearly certain we'll get another class, so I doubt it's real, but I can entirely believe that the systems guys are the first guys to put time in on an expansion with the thematics being applied to the framework they established later on.

[Kiivar86]

Eh, I'll dismiss it for a few reasons, but this isn't one of them. They detailed that they were working on the new expansion. It was simply the theme that they hadn't settled on yet. You can start building a house before you choose the color of the siding.

I can agree to a point, but you still generally have the framework planned out at the bare minimum. You know where the rooms will be, where the walls will be.

To bring this back to the expansion talk, that would mean they know the broad strokes of what's coming up next - where it is located (roughly), the big movers and shakers, at the least. The nitty gritty is in flux, to be sure. But he goes and gives two wildly different plans and that just doesn't work in this. That would be like starting to build a house, breaking ground but you're not sure if you're going to put down a McMansion or a split-level ranch.

[Nyel]

Why would a systems designer need to know what color the abilities he is designing are before he designs them? Do you need an understanding of the Ashbringer's history before you can design a power progression tree for a Retribution Paladin? Do you need to know what kind of shoes the boss is wearing before you design the mechanics of the encounter?

There's a lot you can do before you put the final paint job on something.

I mean, I doubt we'll get housing and I'm nearly certain we'll get another class, so I doubt it's real, but I can entirely believe that the systems guys are the first guys to put time in on an expansion with the thematics being applied to the framework they established later on.

I edited my post above as to why I absolutely do not think this is the case. Both scenarios explained are just completely different. If they would be similar and just smaller details would be different I could see this happening. But this way? Nope.

Plus, Blizzard always kept on stating their planning of expansions is usually two ahead, so there's a 0% chance that they don't know yet what the new expansion will be, especially when they already should be working very hard on it.

[Ivarr]

... What chromie shit?
Do you mean chromie time? That isn't an endgame progression system, that's a fancier hero's call board for your low lvl alts.

Chromie time demonstrated that all content scales now. It's not end-game, but it's just a small step away from it.

[draugril]

I can agree to a point, but you still generally have the framework planned out at the bare minimum. You know where the rooms will be, where the walls will be.

To bring this back to the expansion talk, that would mean they know the broad strokes of what's coming up next - where it is located (roughly), the big movers and shakers, at the least. The nitty gritty is in flux, to be sure. But he goes and gives two wildly different plans and that just doesn't work in this. That would be like starting to build a house, breaking ground but you're not sure if you're going to put down a McMansion or a split-level ranch.

I see your point, but given how formulaic modern WoW is, I can definitely see wildly different themes being applied to the same general systems - just as "cosmic-go-to-demon-space" Legion systems were applied to the initially grounded, basic "Alliance vs. Horde" BfA, and further transplanted to a visit to the afterlife. Ultimately wildly different concepts, themes, and settings, but the mechanical bones are virtually identical.

- - - Updated - - -

I edited my post above as to why I absolutely do not think this is the case. Both scenarios explained are just completely different. If they would be similar and just smaller details would be different I could see this happening. But this way? Nope.

Plus, Blizzard always kept on stating their planning of expansions is usually two ahead, so there's a 0% chance that they don't know yet what the new expansion will be, especially when they already should be working very hard on it.

I suppose I've always been skeptical of that, particularly when they said they didn't know if they were going to do WoD or Legion first.

[Nyel]

I see your point, but given how formulaic modern WoW is, I can definitely see wildly different themes being applied to the same general systems - just as "cosmic-go-to-demon-space" Legion systems were applied to the initially grounded, basic "Alliance vs. Horde" BfA, and further transplanted to a visit to the afterlife. Ultimately wildly different concepts, themes, and settings, but the mechanical bones are virtually identical.

- - - Updated - - -



I suppose I've always been skeptical of that, particularly when they said they didn't know if they were going to do WoD or Legion first.

I think in this case they just wanted the WoD nostalgia to have effect on the performance of the Warcraft movie and that's why they went with it. Afterwards, the entirety of WoD was completely unnecessary for the franchise as Gul'dan's reappearance was the only thing that really mattered for the events of Legion. In hindsight this might not even have been necessary at all, although I really like what they did with AU Gul'dan in Legion.

[draugril]

I think in this case they just wanted the WoD nostalgia to have effect on the performance of the Warcraft movie and that's why they went with it.

No doubt! But the fact that this was ever an option leads me to believe that the theme is a lot more malleable than we've been led to believe. I do wonder, however, how things would have played out if they were inverted. Might we have instead been building our garrison on the Broken Isles? Would we require artifacts from an alternate timeline to defeat the Iron Horde?

. Afterwards, the entirety of WoD was completely unnecessary for the franchise as Gul'dan's reappearance was the only thing that really mattered for the events of Legion. In hindsight this might not even have been necessary at all, although I really like what they did with AU Gul'dan in Legion.

And yeah, I've often joked that you could replace WoD with, "And then Gul'dan was resurrected, and..." without changing anything about the narrative. I personally prefer the original Gul'dan, though. He was much more conniving, more of a manipulator... but that isn't really an archetype that WoW has had much success with.

[AngerFork]

This new leak seems interesting. Not sure I believe it, but it at least has a few elements that feel more believable than other pieces. It comes across as a lot more humble compared to most leaks we've had around here.

Good morning everyone,

Given the current turmoil in our studio and the refusal of anyone at any level of management to communicate with each other or the community, I thought I'd take it upon myself to share a few details about what is currently going on internally with the WoW team.

Firstly, the lawsuit. It is affecting every level of development and, honestly, we're not really getting any direction from supervision currently. That is, if you still have supervision at all. The closest I'll get to identifying myself is stating that I was in Jon LeCraft's stable. As I'm sure you've heard, he has "voluntarily" resigned (for good reason). As you may not know, senior developers like him tend to have an inner circle that follow each other from job to job. Much of that inner circle has also left, voluntarily or otherwise. There is a lot of "guilt by association" going around right now, and since virtually everyone in supervisory or management positions have associated with these bad actors as a function of their position at one point or another, everyone is walking on eggshells, trying to keep their heads down, and whatever other analogies you want to make for trying to go unnoticed and keep their jobs. This survival-mode mindset is making it difficult to progress. That being said, despite everything grinding to a halt for a couple days and people taking one tweet out of context, work is being done. We just aren't able to get clear direction or certain decisions made that would assist us in upping the quality of clarity of that work.

To some extent, this is understandable. I imagine people at all levels of Blizz are going through a ton of conflicting emotions right now. Fear has to be prevalent & probably getting a true decision on anything is a bit tricky when no one knows for sure which managers will be around week to week. We all saw what the sudden change in direction did to WoD. I can totally see no one wanting to commit to anything right now until they know who is sticking around.

On a personal note, I'm sorry to hear it's so rough there. Hopefully this tumultuous time leads to a better ABK.

The biggest example of that lack of decisiveness is the fact that we literally do not know what the next expansion is going to be yet. It was narrowed down to two paths a little bit after Shadowlands launched and the path be took was going to be dependent on how certain features of Shadowlands were received. Unfortunately, Shadowlands has not been received well in any respect (and we are not blind to this), so we haven't been able to settle on the next. Add in a lot of management departing and the remainder trying to be as invisible as possible, and you have a recipe for indecision. Furthermore, the elephant in the room is FFXIV. The worker bees discuss it a lot, and management (when they do talk at all) tend to talk about its features instead of just naming it directly. There are certain elements we would definitely like to add to WoW, but again, the lack of direction is hurting us right now.

This I would believe from my own experience in the industry. There's often a certain amount of "wait and see" whenever you release a new product where you don't want to dive fully in until you see how everything is received by the players. I can imagine that everyone at Blizz felt certain features might not be well received, but I doubt any of them saw the backlash that Shadowlands has gotten. Most game pieces get talked about like features as well in my experience. My company for instance talked more about XCom's combat style & quest delivery systems from several different games.

So what are the two options? There is a small civil war that has been escalating over which of these options we will take.

The first is a Wrathion-centered setting that has been an alternate candidate for both Battle for Azeroth and Shadowlands. The often referenced Dragon Isles would be an element of this, but "Dragon Isles" is a bit of a misnomer. Those draconic pocket dimensions called "Sanctums" beneath Wyrmrest Temple exist as a sort of back up save for Azeroth when the Titans first ordered it. With the Sundering, Cataclysm, and Sword of Sargeras all irrevocably damaging Azeroth, Wrathion feels that the dragonflights have failed in their duty to defend our world. So, Wrathion hits the reset button. These Sanctums manifest physically out in the world in strategic locations, collectively called "Isles," and begin to heal the surrounding landscape to a primordial default. (Small sidenote: concepts for a revamped Caverns of Time have been really trippy - this route would be worth exploring just to see those realized.)

I could actually see this one & it sounds kind of neat. It would explain why Wrathion can't find the Dragon Isles right now, especially if the other dragons aren't really working with him. This could be an interesting concept to see realized & would likely help us to get back to some smaller stories while not feeling like a massive scope drop from Shadowlands.

The second option would ratchet the cosmic scope of the story up another notch. Honestly, I don't have the best idea of what exactly the narrative would be about because I really don't care for this idea at all. From what I can tell, we get embroiled in a cosmic civil war - Order, Shadow, and Death against Chaos, Light, and Life. The "flagship" champions of these realms are all already known to us - Illidan represents Order, Xal'atath represents Shadow, Sylvanas represents Death, Sargeras represents Chaos, Yrel represents Light, and Alexstrasza represents Life. Essentially, Sylvanas succeeds in her goal to defeat Death, but that disruption to the cosmic structure prompts other forces to make their moves. Alexstrasza finally gets her turn as a corrupted Aspect. Most of the details are lost on me, honestly.

This feels less like an idea and more like a barren concept, and a lot of it seems weird. Illidan representing order IMO doesn't match any lore we've seen thus far. Plus, Sylvanas' goals would likely have changed post 9.2, so I have a hard time believing this one as a concept.

No one has yet made the call on which direction we are going to go. A lot of the more seasoned developers want to revisit the old world while the newer blood generally wants to escalate our current narrative directly. Once management comes out of their foxholes, we might get an answer on this, but it doesn't look to be coming soon. Development on 9.2 proceeds slowly, but there are certain elements that will need to be adjusted based on which direction we're going to go in, and the thematic of 9.3 (and yes, there will be a 9.3) is going to be heavily reliant on that decision.

I will be legit surprised if we get a 9.3, though if the next expansion hasn't been settled on it might be a safety net to fall back on. It seems like most of the story can finish up with a 9.2 & that finishing it will likely give a better reception overall for 10.0.

The next build-around feature is going to be themed around either choosing a Dragonflight or Cosmic Force to represent and the foundations for this are already being developed. Conceptually, we're aiming for a hybrid between artifacts and Covenants. Mechanically, all choices are going to be identical, much like artifacts. Only the aesthetic rewards and associated narrative will change. (As another sidenote, there have been discussions around revamping grouping restrictions along these lines as well, but something like that won't be happening in the near future.) The Soulbind idea is being carried forward, but these will be more strongly identified with specializations than they are now, but we are still giving the players to choose: maybe a Priest wants to PvP and would be more comfortable with defensive passives than the healing ones, for example. Additionally, the intent is to bring this system beyond the next expansion. We want to create a system that is informed by the lessons learned over the past three expansions and stop tying up so many man hours with entirely new progression systems.

This sounds a lot to me like pulling the proverbial ripcord would be, which makes me wonder if such a "pull" would happen in 9.2. There's a lot Blizz could learn to inform a new system like this from pulling out pieces from covenant locks to see how they are received by the player base which would help build a better build-around feature next time.

Speaking more to FFXIV's influences, I'm confident of two things.

Firstly, legitimate housing is coming. It took a lot of effort to convince management that garrisons are not the same thing, but FFXIV's example was able to reinforce that point enough to make it stick. Regardless of which direction is chosen, housing is going to be a tentpole feature, so the tech is already being worked on. It is going to be more modular and limited than FFXIV's "put anything anywhere" approach because of the limits of the engine. The current idea is that each guild will have a unique instance, with a central guild hall that will provide small boosts to player power based on its configuration, and a surrounding neighborhood of individually owned houses, and rooms available within the hall once those plots are used up. Part of the idea is to make guilds matter again and to foster those communities by giving them shared goals.

This sounds like a decent idea overall, though my fear there if it's based on a guild level is that some GMs may use housing/rooms as a way to show favoritism and/or push other guild members into things they may not want to do, like giving up BoEs. If you can somehow ensure the house stays with the player even through guild changes, it sounds awesome.

Secondly, our take on Eureka / Bozja content. Because it has been rather difficult to define the player's place in the narrative, for the purposes of this content, we aren't involving the player character at all. The intent is to create new characters for each class and have the player take on their role in the story, complete with voiced dialogue choices. Progression in these narratives, and the zone in which it occurs, will be separate from the overall player progression system - you'll be able to find titles, mounts, achievements, and pets, but no power rewards will be available. That is to say, all power progression rewards will be internal to this system - you can still grow more powerful as your proxy character. We hope that we can capture some of FFXIV's narrative immersion with this mode of gameplay, as honestly, WoW just isn't otherwise structured in a way that allows the player character establish themselves as an actual character in the narrative.

I like this setup, especially if you link it with things like internal talent trees similar to Deaths of Chromie. This could be a great well to tell past stories & some heroes that may have been forgotten. Imagine something from back when Pandaria first got covered in the mists or from back during the Sundering. I'd love to see this feature as you've present it here.

As for other new additions, a new class is completely off the table for the foreseeable future. We simply aren't able to commit future development resources to an investment like that. We have enough on our plate already on that front. We're also very satisfied with our currently offered options. Most of what we see suggested already hews too closely to already playable options (like Dark Ranger, Tinker or Necromancer) or just isn't a thematic fit for our game (like Dragoons or Bards). However, playable races, new and old, are in active development, and there is a commitment to further expanding the options for the already playable options.

I would absolutely rethink this decision if so. While I understand not wanting to have another mouth to feed & that a new class means permanent extra work to figure out abilities/balance, I feel that without a new class the game somewhat tends to stagnate. A new class brings in new playstyles, new options for how to run content, new strengths/weaknesses to look at in PvP & PvE, as well as a lot of player excitement. Imagine a pet-based healing class or something along the playstyle lines of Spellblade Aluriel which has both melee & ranged parts to the spec. There is a reason IMO that the expansions most fondly remembered (BC, WotLK, Mists, Legion) all featured a new class for each faction to play with.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Plus, Blizzard always kept on stating their planning of expansions is usually two ahead, so there's a 0% chance that they don't know yet what the new expansion will be, especially when they already should be working very hard on it.

When did they actually last state this?

[Gelannerai]

"Because it has been rather difficult to define the player's place in the narrative, for the purposes of this content, we aren't involving the player character at all. The intent is to create new characters for each class and have the player take on their role in the story, complete with voiced dialogue choices."

That sounds like absolute, utter crap.

Yeah, I don’t know about that either. Imo one of the biggest problems with the current narrative is that it feels like the player character doesn’t matter at all. The storybeats that have driven BfA and SL have so focused on a select few (granted important) lore characters and their decisions that the pc might as well be a mindless drone. Large numbers of Horde players wanted absolutely nothing to do with Sylvanas and WoT, but the narrative forced them into it. Large numbers of Alliance players wanted nothing to do with Jaina and the attack on Zandalar, but the narrative forced them into it. While obviously player agency shouldn’t disrupt an entire narrative, having said narrative be so all-encompassing so as to be unavoidable isn’t the right direction either.

[Lady Atia]

"Because it has been rather difficult to define the player's place in the narrative, for the purposes of this content, we aren't involving the player character at all. The intent is to create new characters for each class and have the player take on their role in the story, complete with voiced dialogue choices."

That sounds like absolute, utter crap.

Yep. I don't believe anything that LARPER tries to say. Also making housing but chain it to guilds? Lol, that sounds as horrible as that "control generic story characters mode". I believe that we will get housing down the line, but it will be something that doesn't directly need a group/guild. Just a fresh new game mode that's different from everything else. Basically what Pet Battles is for fans of Pokemon, but this time aimed at Valheim/Minecraft/Sims players.

[draugril]

"Because it has been rather difficult to define the player's place in the narrative, for the purposes of this content, we aren't involving the player character at all. The intent is to create new characters for each class and have the player take on their role in the story, complete with voiced dialogue choices."

That sounds like absolute, utter crap.

Eh, it makes sense to me, to a degree. Keep the player characters as those faceless dungeoneers while still allowing the players themselves to involve themselves in a narrative in a potentially significant way. I suppose it ultimately comes down to how good the story they're trying to tell is. I do like that it would be a branch of content that doesn't feed back into the loot treadmill.

But yeah, no new class means it's fake in my book, so nothing to worry about anyway.

[Nyel]

When did they actually last state this?

Right around Shadowlands announcement / release? I can’t remember, but it’s something that definitely is mentioned once a year or so when they reveal stuff. We‘re always expansions ahead!

[Cosmic Janitor]

Kudos to the fake leak, especially the housing part. Seems exactly what everyone fears housing in WoW would be...
To paraphrase: "Legit housing is coming! It's super restrictive, for guilds and in general not at all what housing is about."

- - - Updated - - -

Right around Shadowlands announcement / release? I can’t remember, but it’s something that definitely is mentioned once a year or so when they reveal stuff. We‘re always expansions ahead!

Yeah I need a source or better multiple for that, because the last time I remember hearing that was around cata/mop.

- - - Updated - - -

Yep. I don't believe anything that LARPER tries to say. Also making housing but chain it to guilds? Lol, that sounds as horrible as that "control generic story characters mode". I believe that we will get housing down the line, but it will be something that doesn't directly need a group/guild. Just a fresh new game mode that's different from everything else. Basically what Pet Battles is for fans of Pokemon, but this time aimed at Valheim/Minecraft/Sims players.

I agree, but it's kinda ingenous. It tackles exactly what everyone would expect of Blizzard. It's like seeing FFXIV's opening cinematics and concluding that having a stand-in for the WoL in every part of the game is the thing they should do, instead of only in these major prerendered cutscenes once per expansion. It would be typical for Blizzard to do exactly that. Edit: Though he shows his (fake) cards with the Eureka/Bozja name drop, as that has really not much at all to do with the player's place in the story. That one would be important for the actual main story of the game, not some side content. Even for Blizzard that conclusion is so wrong, someone clearly has no idea about FFXIV .

[LemonDemonGirl]

- "for some reason or another" Zovaal is unable to be stopped and Azeroth is on track for the first time of actually being "doomed" and not able to stop it

- He doesn't say what the Sepulcher of the First Ones actually is or its significance but we supposedly enlist Chromie and the Bronze Dragonflight to use the "power of the sepulcher" to send us to an alternate Azeroth where the Jailer lost, effectively dooming all inhabitants of the planet to remain on main Azeroth and die/lose/become dominated/whatever... instead of "the main cast" ... he says some of the key art depicts iconic areas in Azeroth significantly looking different with advertisement wording saying things like 'a home so strange to you' or whatever

- Instead of going to this alternate Azeroth of the same "year SL takes place" we instead get flung too far into a "future version of this alternate Azeroth" where "no heroes returned from the SL and things are crazy"


All the quotations are from his phrases directly. Like I said... grain of salt. No mention of Dragon Isles or Void/Light feud.

Ok, These ideas kinda scare me... What will become of Zandalar? Will Bwonsamdi be ok?

[Osmeric]

This is an unprecedented situation.

Even before the lawsuit, we have never been this late into the development cycle of an expansion without having established its branding and theme. The negative reception of Shadowlands genuinely shocked most of us, even if its faults are now glaringly obvious.

Let me say this: my negative reaction to SL was not because of any individual feature or small set of features. It's because the entirety of SL sent me the strong message that the underlying game design philosophy of WoW has decisively broken away from being for players such as myself. I did not drift away from SL; I felt like I was actively propelled out the door.

Cargoculting a list of features from FF14 will not get me back. Rearranging the deck chairs on the WoWtanic will not get me back. A different storyline will not get me back. Radical and deep change in what you guys are doing is going to have to happen, and it's going to have to be made clear to me that you all have done this. I understand this is out of your hands as a worker bee.

I suggest you keep your resume up to date, btw.