Do Healers have to DPS now during down time in between heals?

[Elbob]

snip

Why didn't you just link your char instead of telling dps/hps numbers. All I have to go on is achievements on your char but you haven't landed a CE since Garrosh. You have barely raided mythic content at all since then but you think since you raided high end almost 7 years ago you can comment about the difficulty of current high end prog content?

As to the whole "it took weeks to kill things like 0 light yogg and LK"
1) Obviously LK had 50 wipes per week across the raid and took ~7weeks to die. Thats 350 pulls to clear the whole raid. Guilds in SoD were on like painsmith or soulrender prog by time to they hit 350 instance wipes for the week 1 race, and they were loaded up on split run gear and BoE's which easily compete with the extra weeks of heroic farm. Maybe slightly behind.
2) Next blizzards ability to balance content pre-release has gotten WAYYYYY better in the past 10 years. World first raiders back in Ulduar days were the beta testers as oppose to today where they have internal raid test teams to make sure things are functioning properly even on the hardest content.
3) Guilds internal reporting functions and in pull tools have gotten substantially better. Wlogs and WA's and the ability for guilds to parse through pulls with these tools allow for extremely difficult mechanics to get figured out and handled quickly.

Comparing prog times then vs now is so apples to oranges. Its a different game. LK was a HARD fight for THEN but when wotlk classic comes you will see guilds full of players that never played the game in Wotlk still kill the boss in minimal pulls. I would go as far to bet the raid is cleared week 1 of heroic within the first 50 wipes.

[kenn9530]

snip

I know how the game works and WoW is not designed in a way where healer damage is actually required, the content is not actually designed with requiring healers to actually do damage, so it is you who has no idea about WoW and dont even participate in mythic content.

It doesnt take skill to do damage, if you think it has anything to do with skill then you have no idea what skill actually is in WoW, the healers role is to keep the group alive and thats it, if they want to do damage that is fine, a healer doing damage actually increases the chance of someone dying and thats a fact, healers shouldnt be in a place where they are forced to do damage.

Why didn't you just link your char instead of telling dps/hps numbers. All I have to go on is achievements on your char but you haven't landed a CE since Garrosh. You have barely raided mythic content at all since then but you think since you raided high end almost 7 years ago you can comment about the difficulty of current high end prog content?

As to the whole "it took weeks to kill things like 0 light yogg and LK"
1) Obviously LK had 50 wipes per week across the raid and took ~7weeks to die. Thats 350 pulls to clear the whole raid. Guilds in SoD were on like painsmith or soulrender prog by time to they hit 350 instance wipes for the week 1 race, and they were loaded up on split run gear and BoE's which easily compete with the extra weeks of heroic farm. Maybe slightly behind.
2) Next blizzards ability to balance content pre-release has gotten WAYYYYY better in the past 10 years. World first raiders back in Ulduar days were the beta testers as oppose to today where they have internal raid test teams to make sure things are functioning properly even on the hardest content.
3) Guilds internal reporting functions and in pull tools have gotten substantially better. Wlogs and WA's and the ability for guilds to parse through pulls with these tools allow for extremely difficult mechanics to get figured out and handled quickly.

Comparing prog times then vs now is so apples to oranges. Its a different game. LK was a HARD fight for THEN but when wotlk classic comes you will see guilds full of players that never played the game in Wotlk still kill the boss in minimal pulls. I would go as far to bet the raid is cleared week 1 of heroic within the first 50 wipes.

Dont need to link anything if you dont believe me thats your problem not mine, last time WoW was actually fun was back in MoP, every expansion since then it has been downhill and the content has been boring, if i want to do CE content i do it, if i cant be bothered i dont do it, i did 8/10 mythic castle nathria just casually playing 2 days a week and doing 1 m+ 15 a week, i prefer playing with friends over pushing end boss kills now when i play.

LK HC will still be a hard fight regardless, its a long ass fight and without the gear it might not even go down the first week, but players have had years to practice the fight and all the tactics to beat it are already out, it doesnt take much to wipe on lich king so anyone who has not actually done the fight when it was relevant might not clear it for a few months.

[Diaphin]

I know how the game works and WoW is not designed in a way where healer damage is actually required, the content is not actually designed with requiring healers to actually do damage, so it is you who has no idea about WoW and dont even participate in mythic content.

It doesnt take skill to do damage, if you think it has anything to do with skill then you have no idea what skill actually is in WoW, the healers role is to keep the group alive and thats it, if they want to do damage that is fine, a healer doing damage actually increases the chance of someone dying and thats a fact, healers shouldnt be in a place where they are forced to do damage.

So you agree that DPS should stop dpsing the exact moment they reached the theshold of personal dps required to beat a given encounter. And neither Tanks nor dps should be required to avoid nor mitigate damage which won't kill them faster than a healer could heal? Yes? Because like, you know, a dps engaging in unnecessary movement or pushing unnecessary buttons in an encounter increases the chance of them not reaching the damage treshold required of them personally for a boss to die.

I mean, according to your stance, this should be fair, right? If Healers have to contribute nothing but the bare minimum and everything above that is not in the design of the game, dps and tanks shouldn't either be forced to do more than the bare minimum required.

And you contradicted yourself. You said that WoW content is easy, yet at the same time you said doing dps increases the chance of someone dying. Thats...thats contradictory. Like, either WoW content is so hard that every time you do dps as a healer there is a high risk of somebody dying or it is easy, in which case this would not be the case.

And some personal anecdote: I've seen my girlfriend pick up a healer and just intuitively do dps during leveling because normal dungeons, literally the first pieces of content a healer will ever enter while learning their role, do so little dps that she had nothing to do most of the time while at the same time forbidding me as tank from utilizing self-heal because otherwise she would even have less to heal. I...I think my girlfriend started to play the game being better than you at it.

[Argorwal]

How is that different from a fight where if one of your DPS dies you wipe because you can't make the DPS check? Plenty of those in WoW's raiding history. Or how about the standard situation for about the last decade where if a tank dies and you're out of battle rezzes, you wipe because you MUST have two tanks up and functional? How it okay for losing a tank or DPS to force a wipe, but not okay for losing a healer to do so? Talk about healers being second-class citizens.

If fights were so tightly tuned that losing 1 dps was a wipe wouldn’t that mean that fight is impossible to sell a carry for?

[kenn9530]

So you agree that DPS should stop dpsing the exact moment they reached the theshold of personal dps required to beat a given encounter. And neither Tanks nor dps should be required to avoid nor mitigate damage which won't kill them faster than a healer could heal? Yes? Because like, you know, a dps engaging in unnecessary movement or pushing unnecessary buttons in an encounter increases the chance of them not reaching the damage treshold required of them personally for a boss to die.

I mean, according to your stance, this should be fair, right? If Healers have to contribute nothing but the bare minimum and everything above that is not in the design of the game, dps and tanks shouldn't either be forced to do more than the bare minimum required.

And you contradicted yourself. You said that WoW content is easy, yet at the same time you said doing dps increases the chance of someone dying. Thats...thats contradictory. Like, either WoW content is so hard that every time you do dps as a healer there is a high risk of somebody dying or it is easy, in which case this would not be the case.

And some personal anecdote: I've seen my girlfriend pick up a healer and just intuitively do dps during leveling because normal dungeons, literally the first pieces of content a healer will ever enter while learning their role, do so little dps that she had nothing to do most of the time while at the same time forbidding me as tank from utilizing self-heal because otherwise she would even have less to heal. I...I think my girlfriend started to play the game being better than you at it.

Dps job is to dps and deal with mechanics, healers job is to heal and deal with mechanics, tanks job is to get smashed in the face and deal with mechanics, everything else extra you do is personal choice.

WoW content is easy but players are bad and take avoidable damage where if a healer is doing damage its likely they will die before they can get a suitable heal out.

Just so you understand because it seems you dont understand english, have i once said i never do damage or use everything my class has during mythic plus or raids, because an opinion of what would actually be better content wise has nothing to do with how i actually play the game itself, it seems you just like to randomly throw out insults any chance you get.

The content should be designed around healers having a hard time keeping the group alive so they dont even get a chance to dps.

[Diaphin]

Dps job is to dps and deal with mechanics, healers job is to heal and deal with mechanics, tanks job is to get smashed in the face and deal with mechanics, everything else extra you do is personal choice.

WoW content is easy but players are bad and take avoidable damage where if a healer is doing damage its likely they will die before they can get a suitable heal out.

Just so you understand because it seems you dont understand english, have i once said i never do damage or use everything my class has during mythic plus or raids, because an opinion of what would actually be better content wise has nothing to do with how i actually play the game itself, it seems you just like to randomly throw out insults any chance you get.

The content should be designed around healers having a hard time keeping the group alive so they dont even get a chance to dps.

Its generally a rule of life that the people who complain about people expecting them to dps while healing are bad players. Especially since you are unable to grasp basic concepts and are unwilling to link your logs or armory. Or like, debunk my arguments. And actually, no. A dps player has to dps. If you can keep them alive while they stand in fire, according to your logic, they should stay in fire because its not their job to look for their health, its yours. Just as a tank just has to do the bare minimum to not be instantly killed. Like, if I would do dungeons with you, I would actually not use deathstrike because you made it very clear that healing is your job, not mine.

Also, if players take avoidable damage which will kill them in a matter of a gcd, they would die no matter what, because it happens unpredictably. Also if a dps player dies while a healer plays their role optimally due to them fucking up, its actually on the dps player.

Because I already explained to you, why doing that would be a very bad idea. It would mean that the skill floor is equal or near equal to the skill ceiling. Which means only the most efficent and competent healers would actually be able to heal content. Which nobody here believes you to be, which means that if Blizzard would listen to you, you would be back very fast crying tears about how healing is too hard. Because it would be tuned around players more competent people during wotlk, which includes you. The alternative would be to introduce forced downtimes, in which the game actually punishes you by enforcing passivity on you if you play too good. That was the model of healing before mana became less of an issue. Honest to god, I don't know anymore if it was actually in wotlk or only in cataclysm. What I remember is that in Mist of Pandaria when I leveled up my first priest, I was usually the top of the dps charts up until cataclysm dungeons as a discipline priest. Fun times.

If there is room for downtimes with optimal time, we will back where we started.

ITs actually easier to design healers with dps in mind and creat synergies between their heal and dps toolkit. Because dpsing as a healer is here to stay.

Also, there is one thing I would really love to know: As you put the blame of people leaving WoW on the current Healer Design, what are your feelings on the video I linked and the fact that they seem to leave wow for a game in which healers cast even less healing spells and dps even more.

[kenn9530]

snip

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/charact...enor/kahliisii its also a completely fresh character for shadowlands.


I just play casually but can easily do whatever content i wish and just stop playing once im bored. I only played the latest patch for one raid week before getting bored.

A players job is to do their job and that includes dealing with mechanics, damage in a shamans tool kit is not an essential tool but an optional one, where as things like deathstrike is an essential tool, healers can make up for mistakes other players make but it is less likely while healers are doing damage. My logic includes a players doing everything they are required to do, damage for a healer is an optional extra on some healers.

[Diaphin]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/charact...enor/kahliisii its also a completely fresh character for shadowlands.


I just play casually but can easily do whatever content i wish and just stop playing once im bored. I only played the latest patch for one raid week before getting bored.

A players job is to do their job and that includes dealing with mechanics, damage in a shamans tool kit is not an essential tool but an optional one, where as things like deathstrike is an essential tool, healers can make up for mistakes other players make but it is less likely while healers are doing damage. My logic includes a players doing everything they are required to do, damage for a healer is an optional extra on some healers.

Tbh, I don't trust you to actually linked your real character or not having been carried tbh. Sorry, but you just seem to be unable to understand simple gameplay concepts or argue your point. Like, you haven't made a single argument to back your point.

Like, how would you archieve pure healers? Either the skill floor is equal the skill ceiling. Then Healing is pretty much gatekept for everyone but the highest percentille of each difficulty. Or you enforce downtimes in which healers use no skills, like back during older expansions. What is it? Make your point dude.

Also, what makes Deathstrike an essentiel tool and shaman dps spells not? Like, its a damaging and healing tool, we can pretty much ignore the absorb in current WoW. So it does two things which Tanks are not forced to do, dps and healing. So its optional on whether or not I use it. Especially siiiiiiiince I got death coil back.

So according to your logic, if a healer doesn't needs to do dps, a tank doesn't needs to use self heal. Sooooooo...if a death knight decides to use death coil instead of deathstrike, its legitimate. Just as it is for a dps to stay in fire as long as it isn't killing them faster than a heal can heal.

Like, can you make any argument against me giving a fuck and spamming Death Coil when I don't see the heal on the dps meter?

[Wries]

Obviously if there is a timer, either m+ or enrage, and you can help with beating that timer by DPSing, you do that. Just sitting on your arse waiting for something to heal is an option, but it belongs in the Normal and LFR difficulty tiers. There you get to enjoy your game while not evolving your playstyle and then you can leave heroic and especially mythic alone.

Furthermore Blizzard has shown that weaving dps in a healer's rotation can be fun. They just haven't succeeded with every spec just yet.

Though by default, or at least by a checkbox in Interface options, I think healing and helpful spells should go on mouseover rather than wait to have every single healer figuring out that they need to fix macros/addons to be effective.

It's not comparable to early WoW when content truly wasn't designed with the levels of difficulty present today.

[Diaphin]

he's only done +15 and didn't even time it... not particularly impressive...

Ah thanks, have totally forgot to look at m+. So probably a carry candidate.

- - - Updated - - -

Obviously if there is a timer, either m+ or enrage, and you can help with beating that timer by DPSing, you do that. Just sitting on your arse waiting for something to heal is an option, but it belongs in the Normal and LFR difficulty tiers. There you get to enjoy your game while not evolving your playstyle and then you can leave heroic and especially mythic alone.

Furthermore Blizzard has shown that weaving dps in a healer's rotation can be fun. They just haven't succeeded with every spec just yet.

Though by default, or at least by a checkbox in Interface options, I think healing and helpful spells should go on mouseover rather than wait to have every single healer figuring out that they need to fix macros/addons to be effective.

It's not comparable to early WoW when content truly wasn't designed with the levels of difficulty present today.

Tbh, even in just leveling dungeons when I see the healer just standing arround I just drop using mitigation and pull a shit ton of mobs if I don't outright kick the healer. Its just antisocial.

[odamienskii]

I've picked up healing again after being years away from the game since early MoP. Do Healers have to DPS during down time these days? I'm lost and confused.

I picked up healing on a Holy Paladin and a Resto Shaman. I found myself being pushed into using Crusader strikes on enemies and bosses. Which turned me off the spec and class that I enjoyed healing on back in the day. I levelled up a Shaman and decided to try Resto. I've been seeing a lot of talk about healers doing a ton of DPS in Mythic keys and am wondering if I should be DPSing as well when not healing or during downtime?

I've done a few low keys, and I barely have time to keep up with healing let alone DPSing. How are healers expected to or are DPSing at higher keys? Is there something I ain't doing right or should be doing? Thanks for any and all advice. Could really use it.

Yes, though do not be so hard on yourself if your not getting the opportunity to dps, you will know when you are in a good party because you will be overhealing alot and there will be little/nothing to heal, those are the kind of parties where you can dps alot. the one thing to do is learn where the unavoidable stuff is and be ready for it. elitism helper is a great addon for learning this, also helps shut the noobs up at the end of the dungeon after they have died 10 times and they have 10x more fail damage than everyone else.

The parties where everyone is standing in everything you wont be able to dps much because you will be carrying the bad players fails without them realising, then at the end of the run those exact same players that you babysat all run are going to be the ones critisising you for low dps.

[kenn9530]

Tbh, I don't trust you to actually linked your real character or not having been carried tbh. Sorry, but you just seem to be unable to understand simple gameplay concepts or argue your point. Like, you haven't made a single argument to back your point.

Like, how would you archieve pure healers? Either the skill floor is equal the skill ceiling. Then Healing is pretty much gatekept for everyone but the highest percentille of each difficulty. Or you enforce downtimes in which healers use no skills, like back during older expansions. What is it? Make your point dude.

Also, what makes Deathstrike an essentiel tool and shaman dps spells not? Like, its a damaging and healing tool, we can pretty much ignore the absorb in current WoW. So it does two things which Tanks are not forced to do, dps and healing. So its optional on whether or not I use it. Especially siiiiiiiince I got death coil back.

So according to your logic, if a healer doesn't needs to do dps, a tank doesn't needs to use self heal. Sooooooo...if a death knight decides to use death coil instead of deathstrike, its legitimate. Just as it is for a dps to stay in fire as long as it isn't killing them faster than a heal can heal.

Like, can you make any argument against me giving a fuck and spamming Death Coil when I don't see the heal on the dps meter?

If you dont believe thats my current main char thats fine lol, you have not made a single argument to go against what i have said, why dont you link your main char, all i have said is content should be tuned so healers dont have a chance to do damage and actually have to do mana management again, thats whats fun as a healer, not throwing around some damage that only makes up a few % of a total run.

You make no sense whatsoever and make no counter argument at all, everyone needs to deal with mechanics thats everyones job, a tank needs to keep aggro and mitigate as much damage as possible, a dps main job is to direct damage where its needed, and a healers job is to keep the raid alive, everyone still will have assigned jobs such as dealing with extra mechanics and interupts and such, a healer like shaman should only do some damage when they think its suitable.

As a paladin it has a high focus on doing damage while healing at the same time and thats fine, not very enjoyable but it is what it is, same with disc priest and whatever monk gets from doing damage and healing, shamans, holy priest, resto druid have optional damage tools to be used as the player deems is suitable.

When i play i do my part, i do damage i stun mobs, i slow down enemies, without actual challenging healing content i have no reason to play anymore.

he's only done +15 and didn't even time it... not particularly impressive...

One mythic plus this season lol while the group is learning new routes, i dont bother with any keys higher than 15/16s but i have timed them all, 2022 score from doing the bare min in mythic plus, i played for a week this season before getting bored.

I also never claimed i have done anything impressive with mythic plus as i have said i do the bare min in it because its boring. Only reason to do it is for the chest, and its pretty much impossible to get carried as a healer espeically in DoS.

[Schmittay]

I mean I could live without my left arm, but if it helps me lift heavier things then I may as well use it.

[Diaphin]

If you dont believe thats my current main char thats fine lol, you have not made a single argument to go against what i have said, why dont you link your main char, all i have said is content should be tuned so healers dont have a chance to do damage and actually have to do mana management again, thats whats fun as a healer, not thowing around some damage that only makes up a few % of a total run.

Don't use warcraft logs, barely play currently and I already made rational arguments. Like, you make claims about how you are an elite raider instead of providing arguments, while claiming that the game is piss easy but then also that dpsing while healing is too dangerous because somebody could die if you don't permanently heal, a claim widely debunked, while being unable to counter arguments why higher dps on a healer on a successful log actually is a sign of more efficient gameplay and why heal dps is a natural evolution of moving from slow paced gameplay in which mana enforces downtimes to a fast paced gameplay with no downtimes.

You make no sense whatsoever and make no counter argument at all, everyone needs to deal with mechanics thats everyones job, a tank needs to keep aggro and mitigate as much damage as possible, a dps main job is to direct damage where its needed, and a healers job is to keep the raid alive, everyone still will have assigned jobs such as dealing with extra mechanics and interupts and such, a healer like shaman should only do some damage when they think its suitable.

What is so hard to understand about what you want would require for the skill floor to be near equal the skill ceiling, which means that the minimum requirements of playing your class a given encounter would be to play your class optimally, with the difference between a perfect healer and a healer able to clear the content being at most a few percentage points of health each group member has, though not enough for it to open gcds for dps spells.

Do you understand that? Like, can you grasp the idea of the skill floor, the minimum skill requirement to successfully play a given role and the skill ceiling, a pitch perfect play?

If yes, then tell me so, because I have to unironically know that you can grasp the basis of an argument about gameplay. And afterwards, can you debunk my claim that what you desire, therefore an encounter design in which even with optimal heal there would be no opportunity to cast dps spells, skill floor and skill ceiling would be nearly one and the same, because due to the reactive nature of healing deviations between skill floor and skill ceiling creats more and more openings for dps spells. Which efficent healers will use instead of wasting gcds. Because a little bit of dps, and it often even isn't that little actually, is actually better than doing nothing.

As a paladin it has a high focus on doing damage while healing at the same time and thats fine, not very enjoyable but it is what it is, same with disc priest and whatever monk gets from doing damage and healing, shamans, holy priest, resto druid have optional damage tools to be used as the player deems is suitable.

Actually many players enjoy the glimmer of light playstyle. Thats why its one of the mechanics which was transfered from azerithe power into a core talent. But these damage tools aren't really optional, aren't they? Because if they were so, nobody would ever take a Shaman, Holy Priest or Resto Druid with them. You are just emotionally unable to admit that healing as changed and that it had been a rather organic change with players noticing that dps spells are cost efficent enough to use them without draw back and that most content has downtimes in which no healing is required. And players just getting better. Its an organic progress once dps spells adding to mana scarcity wasn't an issue anymore.

One mythic plus this season lol while the group is learning new routes, i dont bother with any keys higher than 15/16s but i have timed them all

I also never claimed i have done anything impressive with mythic plus as i have said i do the bare min in it because its boring.

You make claims about how the current game is more easy than Wotlk and that older models of Healer Class Design required more skill from users, with everyone trying to explain to you that this is not true. With me having to talk to you like with a child because I fear you have a hard time understanding basic game concepts.

[kenn9530]

not in a 15... if you were talking about 20+... then yes... but 15s are faceroll... you don't even have to be there to do a 15... you can go with 4 dps and a tank...

- - - Updated - - -



you don't even have to change anything from season 1 in dos except not going outside mechagon to get pride for hakkar in a +15... you can just go to hakkar instantly instead... and then after that you just play like you would in season 1...

I only do mythic plus with guildies so just go with whatever they are doing, timing or not is not issue as you still get the 252 item so who cares.

Back up your claim with proof of doing a 15 without a healer then if you are so confidant, also current 15s are around previous 18s so they do abit more damage than a season 1 15.

[Diaphin]

Only reason to do it is for the chest, and its pretty much impossible to get carried as a healer espeically in DoS.

Actually it it. We already mentioned over and over again the fact that tons of damage in m+ is avoidable, therefore a more competent group will have less to have healed for? Then we also established the fact that under optimal circumstances, healing uptime is actually rather low and there is tons of downtime in which you can cast dps? Like yeaaaaaaaaah.

[Diaphin]

i'm not going to do it and record it just because you think it can't be done lol...

Let me be your knightress in shining armor then. Not from me, just an easy youtube search.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrOys6kKnrs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3SG9K8155A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HgeNqgLqvI

It can be done.

[kenn9530]

snip

So you cant back up anything you say or provide even your character to what content you actually have done currently or in the past, you ask for my armory i give it and you dont beleive me and wont even give yours in return, hypocisy at its finest.

WoWs current gameplay style is just plain boring with no challenge at all, as a healer i want to be pushed to the limit and having to spend every single bit of mana on healing and keeping the group alive, i dont want rest i want the raid to be smashed hard, thats where a healer learns to heal and is actually tested, that does not happen often in the current gameplay design.

I have made no claims about healer skill from back in WotlK or anything, but current gameplay design barely even tests a skilled healer.

[kenn9530]

snip

what about the rest, if you cant time every single mythic plus 15 without a healer what you said is irrelevant, doing a few easy mythic dungeon with a paladin tank that can do some crazy heals when needed is not a real test. A paladin tank can do more healing than an actual healer if they focus on it. Its also last season mythic plus in probably the best gear available.

because you're not doing any challenging content...

If mythic raiding is not challenging content then WoW has not challenging content.

[kenn9530]

you haven't even cleared heroic sanctum...

because i quit after 1 week lol, 8/10 mythic nathria is more than suitable to show a reasonable skill level.

Actually it it. We already mentioned over and over again the fact that tons of damage in m+ is avoidable, therefore a more competent group will have less to have healed for? Then we also established the fact that under optimal circumstances, healing uptime is actually rather low and there is tons of downtime in which you can cast dps? Like yeaaaaaaaaah.

my whole point still stands, the content doesnt require a healer to do damage, you can not ignore that simple fact, it doesnt matter if its not optimal.