The Most evil of every race

[Mic_128]

Ner'zhul was certainly second if not first among evil orcs, the dude ripped his planet to bits and became the lich king!

Both of those things weren't intended, and the latter was forced against his will. Hell, the entire reason the planet got torn apart was because he wanted to find another world for the Orcs that wasn't Azeroth. A shades of grey decision.

Honestly though, he really wasn't *that* evil. He was tricked by the Legion into turning the Orcs away from their old ways, but caught on and attempted to stop - only Gul'dan, who had been watching, was well aware of how evil the Legion was, and served willingly, ratted him out, enslaving his former master and making him little more than a pet, a servant to fetch things for him and the Shadow Council. Heck, it was here that Ner'zhul even warned the Frostwolves about drinking the chalice.

Gul'dan is easily the top of the list as most evil orc. Heck, remember how he was having children's lives being drained by warlocks to forcibly age them to fight?

[Aresk]

Magni wasn't a great dwarf, but he has done a lot for Azeroth and the rest of the world since Legion. Dagran is the one who made the deal with ragnaros, Sorcer-Thane summoned him but didnt make the deal

True, I'm mostly talking about pre-Legion Magni, which really soiled my perception of him. With respect to Dagran vs Sorcerer-Thane, Wowpedia's articles about the War of the Three Hammers and Ragnaros both talk about Ragnaros enslaving the dark irons after being summoned, and Dagran wasn't born until after that war, ruling as a servant of Ragnaros. While he didn't do anything to break the Dark Iron away from Ragnaros and was said to enjoy the power the Firelord gave him, I didn't see anything about him making a deal. Is there some quest text or lore book or the like that talks about that more?

[Shaqthefat]

True, I'm mostly talking about pre-Legion Magni, which really soiled my perception of him. With respect to Dagran vs Sorcerer-Thane, Wowpedia's articles about the War of the Three Hammers and Ragnaros both talk about Ragnaros enslaving the dark irons after being summoned, and Dagran wasn't born until after that war, ruling as a servant of Ragnaros. While he didn't do anything to break the Dark Iron away from Ragnaros and was said to enjoy the power the Firelord gave him, I didn't see anything about him making a deal. Is there some quest text or lore book or the like that talks about that more?

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Dagran_Thaurissan

The Wowpedia article on Dagran has the line of, "He is notorious for pledging the Dark Iron clan in service to the elemental lord Ragnaros, who his ancestor, Sorcerer-Thane Thaurissan, successfully summoned to the mortal plane."

Which does sound like old lore, because in chronicle it was stated that Ragnaros enslaved the Dark Irons and Thaurissian was just born later into that.

[Aucald]

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Dagran_Thaurissan

The Wowpedia article on Dagran has the line of, "He is notorious for pledging the Dark Iron clan in service to the elemental lord Ragnaros, who his ancestor, Sorcerer-Thane Thaurissan, successfully summoned to the mortal plane."

Which does sound like old lore, because in chronicle it was stated that Ragnaros enslaved the Dark Irons and Thaurissian was just born later into that.

True, I'm mostly talking about pre-Legion Magni, which really soiled my perception of him. With respect to Dagran vs Sorcerer-Thane, Wowpedia's articles about the War of the Three Hammers and Ragnaros both talk about Ragnaros enslaving the dark irons after being summoned, and Dagran wasn't born until after that war, ruling as a servant of Ragnaros. While he didn't do anything to break the Dark Iron away from Ragnaros and was said to enjoy the power the Firelord gave him, I didn't see anything about him making a deal. Is there some quest text or lore book or the like that talks about that more?

Sorcerer-Thane Thaurissan is the elder Thaurissan who summoned Ragnaros. Ragnaros then violently enslaved the Dark Irons who dwelled in Blackrock. Dagran (the son of the Sorcerer-Thane and Modgud Thaurissan) resolved the tension by essentially formalizing Ragnaros' rule over the Dark Irons, gaining power from Ragnaros and his elemental generals in exchange for seemingly selling out his people. Ragnaros' emergence into Azeroth immediately killed the Sorcerer-Thane and the Seven who followed him, leaving his son to essentially deal with the fallout of the Firelord's presence in their ancestral abode.

[Syegfryed]

Draenei changed a lot more than name, though - they stayed original to their species, more or less, whereas the Eredar were turned into demons. Not to mention the ~30,000 years' worth of social and genetic drift due to a smaller cross-section of the original species. Because of the now vast divide between the two extractions, it seems fitting to at least separate them in terms of identifying their members.

They are literally the same race/spece, look at Velen, and the others.

this "drift" was not enough to cause mutation and cause a variation of the race, like by example, night elves->blood elves, they stayed stagnated by inbreeding and not suffering any mutation, there is no genetic drift with other populations or other races.

the man'ari in other hand, mutated due to fel magic, yet, they did came from the original eredar, just like draenei, seems fitting to me to yes, count then as the same race, just like we count Highborne Azshara to be night elf

[Aucald]

They are literally the same race/spece, look at Velen, and the others.

That's an interesting one to note since Velen actually looks quite different than most other Draenei - he seems smaller and more compact overall, and the distinctive head-ridges since a lot more pronounced and sharper than other Draenei. I've always thought he looked a lot more Eredar than examples like Maraad, Maladaar, or Hataaru - bearing more resemblance to Kil'jaeden and Archimonde minus the obvious demonic traits they've acquired.

this "drift" was not enough to cause mutation and cause a variation of the race, like by example, night elves->blood elves, they stayed stagnated by inbreeding and not suffering any mutation, there is no genetic drift with other populations or other races.

the man'ari in other hand, mutated due to fel magic, yet, they did came from the original eredar, just like draenei, seems fitting to me to yes, count then as the same race, just like we count Highborne Azshara to be night elf

Who's to say, really? Thirty millennia is a long time, and the Draenei probably had to generate a long of offspring to retain their viability as a people in light of their diaspora from Argus. Probably not enough for true speciation to occur, but more than enough for them to begin to accrue a completely different culture and way of life - setting them pretty far apart from their Eredar origins. Add to this the obvious influence of the Light as perhaps an accelerating factor and I'd say you have a pretty significant gulf between their point of origin and their current place relative to the non-demonic Eredar.

The comparison to Highborne Azshara doesn't really qualify since the current Azshara is as far from being a Night Elf as the Draenei are from the now-demonic Eredar.

[Mic_128]

That's an interesting one to note since Velen actually looks quite different than most other Draenei - he seems smaller and more compact overall, and the distinctive head-ridges since a lot more pronounced and sharper than other Draenei.

I just assumed it was because he was so old. He had already been leading his people for a long time before Sargeras arrived, which was 13000 years before the Orcs arrived on Azeroth.

[LostSinclair]

panda: nomi

Oh my god I'd almost let myself forget about that guy.

[Syegfryed]

That's an interesting one to note since Velen actually looks quite different than most other Draenei - he seems smaller and more compact overall, and the distinctive head-ridges since a lot more pronounced and sharper than other Draenei. I've always thought he looked a lot more Eredar than examples like Maraad, Maladaar, or Hataaru - bearing more resemblance to Kil'jaeden and Archimonde minus the obvious demonic traits they've acquired.

??? he is just old, we can see in the cinematics of argus, other draeneis when they escaped, literally the same race, and isn't Marrad also alive by the time they escaped?

also:

They have stopped referring to themselves as "eredar" because of the negative connotation it now has, following the vast majority of eredar being turned into demons, although it is still the name of their race

Who's to say, really? Thirty millennia is a long time, and the Draenei probably had to generate a long of offspring to retain their viability as a people in light of their diaspora from Argus. Probably not enough for true speciation to occur, but more than enough for them to begin to accrue a completely different culture and way of life - setting them pretty far apart from their Eredar origins. Add to this the obvious influence of the Light as perhaps an accelerating factor and I'd say you have a pretty significant gulf between their point of origin and their current place relative to the non-demonic Eredar.

Lore is to say? common sense too.

Because it many times it says in the lore they just renamed themselves, and retain their eredar look, and no, they didn't had to produce many offspring, this is a problem in many races that live for a milenia, they don't have offspring often because their adults can just live on without needing to be replaced, they are not like trolls/orcs/goblins that on top of being able to reproduce faster they reach maturity faster, to made up from the deaths.

Plus, the eredar/daenei always maintain the same lifestyle, there is no necessity for then to change in a evolutionary level, we have examples of real world that species that are alive from a millenia ago, we cna expect the same with the animals.

And no, the light didn't affect then, it did affect the lighforged though, they, indeed, are another race of eredar, changed by the light an the ritual.

The comparison to Highborne Azshara doesn't really qualify since the current Azshara is as far from being a Night Elf as the Draenei are from the now-demonic Eredar.

Current Azshara is a giant squid monster,. she look less like a night elf than kil'jaden look like an eredar

[Aucald]

??? he is just old, we can see in the cinematics of argus, other draeneis when they escaped, literally the same race, and isn't Marrad also alive by the time they escaped?

Age doesn't really cover all the differences of his outward appearance - although this could be down to phenotypical variation in the Draenei or the Eredar, it is interesting that no other Draenei really looks like Velen, whose appearance is more unique. Maraad is also never mentioned to have been alive at the time of their departure from Argus. He may have been born on the Genedar. He is mentioned to have fought on many worlds meaning he predates the landing on Draenor, but he's not seen at any point during Legion in connection with Argus.

Lore is to say? common sense too.

Because it many times it says in the lore they just renamed themselves, and retain their eredar look, and no, they didn't had to produce many offspring, this is a problem in many races that live for a milenia, they don't have offspring often because their adults can just live on without needing to be replaced, they are not like trolls/orcs/goblins that on top of being able to reproduce faster they reach maturity faster, to made up from the deaths.

Plus, the eredar/daenei always maintain the same lifestyle, there is no necessity for then to change in a evolutionary level, we have examples of real world that species that are alive from a millenia ago, we cna expect the same with the animals.

And no, the light didn't affect then, it did affect the lighforged though, they, indeed, are another race of eredar, changed by the light an the ritual.

They didn't *just* rename themselves, they cultivated an entirely new society taking its cues from the teaching of Velen and the Naaru that saved them - and replaced much of the former reliance on the Arcane with practices and even technology based on the Light. Like the Fel (though not as pronounced), the Light also causes physiological and psychological changes to those exposed to its energies. The Draenei were basically bathing in said energies for millennia aboard their Light-fueled craft. We know they reproduced quite a great deal, as the number of Draenei who recall Argus or were present at the time of departure are few now, as confirmed by Velen and Jessera. The contention between those Draenei who remembered Argus and those who were born either in the diaspora or on Draenor is also highlighted in WoD with the conflict between those who sought to remake Draenor into Argus and those who argued the Draenei needed to adapt to their new world and not change it to suit themselves.

Current Azshara is a giant squid monster,. she look less like a night elf than kil'jaden look like an eredar

That was my point, yes.

[Powerogue]

Pandaren: Li-Li Stormstout. Don't let the small demeanor fool you, her thirst for blood is unparalleled.

[Syegfryed]

Age doesn't really cover all the differences of his outward appearance - although this could be down to phenotypical variation in the Draenei or the Eredar, it is interesting that no other Draenei really looks like Velen, whose appearance is more unique. Maraad is also never mentioned to have been alive at the time of their departure from Argus. He may have been born on the Genedar. He is mentioned to have fought on many worlds meaning he predates the landing on Draenor, but he's not seen at any point during Legion in connection with Argus.

Maraad was probably alive before argus knowing how he is old, But Velen is straight up like the rest of the draenei, the only difference is he being old. in the oficial artoworks its get even clear.

He having an unique model doesn't rly change much, is just how thrall is different than the playable orcs.

They didn't *just* rename themselves

The point is how they are still the same race, regardless of their practices and technology(wich is, to me, clearly something eredar-ish, and not rly unique with the exception of adding shamanism). biological they are the same race

That was my point, yes.

and, if azshara counts as night elf evil guys, the manari should count as draenei/eredar

[Aucald]

Maraad was probably alive before argus knowing how he is old, But Velen is straight up like the rest of the draenei, the only difference is he being old. in the oficial artoworks its get even clear.

He having an unique model doesn't rly change much, is just how thrall is different than the playable orcs.

There's no evidence for Maraad being alive before the departure from Argus, it seems more likely he was born aboard the Genedar at some point between the diaspora and reaching Draenor.

And it's not just the unique model - there are features of Velen that most other Draenei don't have, features he shares with his brothers Archimonde and Kil'jaeden. As I said previously, his frame is a lot less robust than other Draenei males, and though you could chalk that up to his age it matches the appearance of Kil'jaeden and Archimode (who like Velen are a lot more proportional along the humanoid baseline). The cranial crests that he has are also more pronounced and stand up straighter than other Draenei, looking more akin to vertical scales than the swept-back versions other Draenei have, which again looks more traditionally Eredar than Draenei.

The point is how they are still the same race, regardless of their practices and technology(wich is, to me, clearly something eredar-ish, and not rly unique with the exception of adding shamanism). biological they are the same race

I mean you could claim the same thing for the High Elves and Night Elves, too; but they're accorded as different races in the Warcraft universe.

and, if azshara counts as night elf evil guys, the manari should count as draenei/eredar

Azshara as she is now does not - she's a Naga, as far from a Night Elf as the Draenei are from the demonic Eredar.

[Diaphin]

Arthas seems more like he was corrupted by Frostmourne. Kel'thuzzad seemed more like a dick to begin with who needed no external corruption.

Did we play the same WC3 where Arthas as a Paladin at every given opportunity strategically chose the path which grinds him the fastest to Darkside V?

[qwerty123456]

Elves that breed with humans

Would you rather them breed with their inbred cannibalistic cousins?

[Dhrizzle]

Race isn't really a function of biology, it's a division defined by phenotypic characteristics. Since the Eredar are now demonic, having traits like wings, horns, scales, and other signifiers of Fel corruption, there's quite a stark difference between the Draenei and the Eredar. Being demons, the Eredar are now also probably biologically distinct as well, as the Fel is mutative and often causes physiological and biological alterations. There are a great many Draenei now who were never of original pre-demonic Eredar extraction, so it's a pretty fundamental distinction.

I largely agree with you about the distinction between the Eredar and Draenei, but "race" in this sort of fantasy has a much stronger biological component than it does in real life, especially when some of the biology involved is actually cursed construction by a race of cosmic meddlers.

[Amathricus]

Definitely a valid point there. Sylvanas was a hero of the Sin'dorei before she was killed and made into a Banshee by Arthas. Even for the time following that, while she did seek vengeance against him, the freewill and prosperity of those freed from the Lich King's control drove her, as well as seeking ways to keep her people from simply... re-dying out.

[Syegfryed]

There's no evidence for Maraad being alive before the departure from Argus, it seems more likely he was born aboard the Genedar at some point between the diaspora and reaching Draenor.

that, sadly, we will never know.

And it's not just the unique model - there are features of Velen that most other Draenei don't have, features he shares with his brothers Archimonde and Kil'jaeden. As I said previously, his frame is a lot less robust than other Draenei males, and though you could chalk that up to his age it matches the appearance of Kil'jaeden and Archimode (who like Velen are a lot more proportional along the humanoid baseline). The cranial crests that he has are also more pronounced and stand up straighter than other Draenei, looking more akin to vertical scales than the swept-back versions other Draenei have, which again looks more traditionally Eredar than Draenei.

That just seems like you are looking too much into the unique models and their differences, as we can see as the rest of the manari are just red draenei

Archmonde looks even more like a regular draenei

I mean you could claim the same thing for the High Elves and Night Elves, too; but they're accorded as different races in the Warcraft universe.

the high elves are presicely recorded as the same race with just a name change, same thing for draenei, with the elvest, blizzard themsleves even confirmed confirmed many times

Azshara as she is now does not - she's a Naga, as far from a Night Elf as the Draenei are from the demonic Eredar.

She came came from the night elves, thats why it makes sense to count her as "evil night elf" she didnt born as naga.

Same thing for kil'jaden and archimonde, not born manari, they were born eredar(same race species of the draenei)

[loras]

Both of those things weren't intended, and the latter was forced against his will. Hell, the entire reason the planet got torn apart was because he wanted to find another world for the Orcs that wasn't Azeroth. A shades of grey decision.

Honestly though, he really wasn't *that* evil. He was tricked by the Legion into turning the Orcs away from their old ways, but caught on and attempted to stop - only Gul'dan, who had been watching, was well aware of how evil the Legion was, and served willingly, ratted him out, enslaving his former master and making him little more than a pet, a servant to fetch things for him and the Shadow Council. Heck, it was here that Ner'zhul even warned the Frostwolves about drinking the chalice.

Gul'dan is easily the top of the list as most evil orc. Heck, remember how he was having children's lives being drained by warlocks to forcibly age them to fight?

Not really a shades of grey decision if you keep their intentions of conquest in mind, Azeroth too was to be a refuge - after its bloody conquest.
To paint him as a desperate refugee seems dishonest.

He had some redeeming intentions, but very little of it manifested in practice; he went from a mad fool to a sad tool.

And let's be honest: abusing children is hardly worth mentioning against a backdrop of genocide, planetary destruction and more.

[Mic_128]

Not really a shades of grey decision if you keep their intentions of conquest in mind, Azeroth too was to be a refuge - after its bloody conquest.
To paint him as a desperate refugee seems dishonest.

The alternative was to let his species continue to turn on itself. It's worth also noting that Gul'dan was the one responsible for that.

He had some redeeming intentions, but very little of it manifested in practice; he went from a mad fool to a sad tool.

You're overlooking his origins a bit there. He genuinely believed he was helping his people, and genuinely believed the Draenei were some sort of threat, per his (previously accurate) prophetic dreams. When he realised he was being fooled, he tried to put a stop to it. He was actually a noble and brave orc, despite what he did afterwards.

Gul'dan has only ever wanted power.

And let's be honest: abusing children is hardly worth mentioning against a backdrop of genocide, planetary destruction and more.

True, but we're talking about 'evil' not 'successful at killing.'

"Painfully draining the lives of 5 year olds in front of their parents to turn them into soldiers" is pretty fucking evil.