Why were Kul Tirans added, but Ogres are still not playable?

[DatToffer]

I don't really get what you're arguing for here. Somehow characters need to look less "sexy" and more androgynous (?) even though - as you said yourself - barely anyone wants to play the already existing non-sexy characters. At the same time you're giving Blizzard flack for not being able to make ugly female character models and then list and example of an ugly female model?

I don't really get what you would like to see changed in the game.

It's just my theory that rampant sexism in the video game industry is the reason we don't get playable ogres.

As for the Kul tiran model, I already said it is not ugly by design, it's ugly because they failed to follow through with the fat ugly tough lady concept.
(And I get how that's confusing, because I lack the english words to express it)

I'll give you an analogy of what I think happened.

Imagine someone works on the new model of fat Gallywix for BFA. They followed the original design, gave him a certain number of chins, his horrible toad face and the jumping belly.

And then someone comes and does not approve because it's not pretty enough or some shit. "Well are you kidding ? He is supposed to be an ugly fat toad goblin"

But you go back and diminish the belly, you suppress some chins, you give more hair, you smooth the face of its warts.

You iterate that way a few times until you get validation and boom.

Your Gallywix now ends up with a pointless belly that doesn't waggle anymore. The one chin left isn't connecting to the throat and looks like a rooster wattle, his baby-smooth skin is all but disturbing.

And there you have it. An ugly model. Not pleasantly or comically ugly in a cartoonish way, but ugly as a design who failed to go through in the original direction.

[Kyriani]

Idk man, the longer I look at this the more I feel like the dimorphism isn't really restricted to the monstrous races. Apart from that the image you posted is very much exaggerated. Draenei males are broad but they're not this huge. If you place a human male next to a human female the difference in size and shape is actually very similar to that of Orcs/Tauren or Draenei. It's just that all males in Warcraft (with a few exceptions) are body building hulks that are twice the size of their female counterparts.

Here's the actual models compared at the same zoom level so this is how they compared next to each other in game. It's still a pretty large difference between the size of male and female.

[Swnem]

I honestly don't know what you mean, Rexxar and in-game ogres look different from Kultirans. Pay more atention to the legs, the torso and the shoulders. They are different.

[Pakheth]

Here's the actual models compared at the same zoom level so this is how they compared next to each other in game. It's still a pretty large difference between the size of male and female.

Draenei has extreme dimorphism... Like, the male would crush the female if they ever decided to lay on top of each other. His biceps are thicker than her thighs...
Always wondered how they could even belong to the same race.

[ZazuuPriest]

why would ogres need a female model?

[DatToffer]

why would ogres need a female model?

It's a surprise tool that will help roleplayers later in Silvermoon.

[Kyriani]

Draenei has extreme dimorphism... Like, the male would crush the female if they ever decided to lay on top of each other. His biceps are thicker than her thighs...
Always wondered how they could even belong to the same race.

The female could fit inside the male like a space suit >_> It's really jarring how different the males and females are from each other in size and shape.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

Doors. Ogres aren't going to fit through most door frames, and a significant number of doorways are part of instanced content in addition to outdoor content (ie. questing).

Best bet for adding an Ogre-related race would be to add Mok'nathal, use the Orc models as a base and scale them up by about 10% or so in size. For a unique feature they could go with horn options, I know Rexxar lacks horns but I don't see why they couldn't add horns to playable Mok'nathal. For faction parity I'd like to see the Alliance get Vykrul in return (slightly shrunken Vykrul, they'd need to be scaled down about 15% to avoid the door frame issue that Ogres would have).

[Nerovar]

Here's the actual models compared at the same zoom level so this is how they compared next to each other in game. It's still a pretty large difference between the size of male and female.

It's a pretty stark difference but it's not that much bigger if you compare it to human male/female. Hell, there are real life humans who are wider than Draenei males. People saying "they don't look like they're the same race" are simply exaggerating (though imo male Draenei should look more like Velen). It's like these people have never seen a real life body builder.

It's just my theory that rampant sexism in the video game industry is the reason we don't get playable ogres.

As for the Kul tiran model, I already said it is not ugly by design, it's ugly because they failed to follow through with the fat ugly tough lady concept.
(And I get how that's confusing, because I lack the english words to express it)

I'll give you an analogy of what I think happened.

<snip>

And there you have it. An ugly model. Not pleasantly or comically ugly in a cartoonish way, but ugly as a design who failed to go through in the original direction.

Do you really think more people would play Kul Tiran females if they were proper ugly (like Lady Ashvane)? And this is related to sexism in the industry how? Why would they make ugly models to begin with?

Overall it seems like Blizzard is simply making (or made in the past) the type of character models people generally want to play as which tend to have very idealized masculine/feminine forms. There's a reason why Night Elves and Blood Elves were always this famous and it's not just their racials.

[Daronokk]

I'd definitely play an Ogre. I don't care if the character is dumb or ugly, it has its own unique charm.

Likewise I'd love a buff Forest Troll as well.

I really don't understand how these races haven't been added to Horde yet, they have a long history with the Horde and canonically are part of the Horde, we just can't play them.

[DatToffer]

Doors. Ogres aren't going to fit through most door frames, and a significant number of doorways are part of instanced content in addition to outdoor content (ie. questing).

Best bet for adding an Ogre-related race would be to add Mok'nathal, use the Orc models as a base and scale them up by about 10% or so in size. For a unique feature they could go with horn options, I know Rexxar lacks horns but I don't see why they couldn't add horns to playable Mok'nathal. For faction parity I'd like to see the Alliance get Vykrul in return (slightly shrunken Vykrul, they'd need to be scaled down about 15% to avoid the door frame issue that Ogres would have).

I think tauren were reduced from their inlore size specifically for this reason though.

But you're right, unlike taurens, we have examples of pretty gigantic ogres in wow that would make the playable ones look like children. Or low level.

- - - Updated - - -

It's a pretty stark difference but it's not that much bigger if you compare it to human male/female. Hell, there are real life humans who are wider than Draenei males. People saying "they don't look like they're the same race" are simply exaggerating (though imo male Draenei should look more like Velen). It's like these people have never seen a real life body builder.

Okay but either the models are representing the average joe and then there's no reason one would be a pro body builder. Or they represent the peak body performance of their people and then why would the female be much more frail ?

This is extreme sexual dimorphism. You don't have to compare them to exceptional irl examples to justify it.

Do you really think more people would play Kul Tiran females if they were proper ugly (like Lady Ashvane)? And this is related to sexism in the industry how? Why would they make ugly models to begin with?

I don't know. Probably not. In any case, from a marketing perspective, the playerbase has made their point that they were not ready for the ugly ogre ladies.

And this is related to sexism in the industry how? Why would they make ugly models to begin with?

Overall it seems like Blizzard is simply making (or made in the past) the type of character models people generally want to play as which tend to have very idealized masculine/feminine forms. There's a reason why Night Elves and Blood Elves were always this famous and it's not just their racials.

You're really gonna make me repeat myself aren't ya ?

It's a videogame made mostly by boys, for boys. It has become very obvious since that interview resurfaced with a girl saying "Can we have females that are not out of a Victoria Secret magazine ?" and the team responding "lol which magazine do you want them to be out of ? lol"

So it has to appeal to boys right ? So, sexy women and cool monsters. Sexy women and cool monsters are what we have.

And no, every male is not in the most generic sexy self. Ask your girlfriend maybe, but I doubt the hunched orcs and trolls are the most appealing to girls. I doubt that the very obese pandarens are the generic beauty standard for men.

At most, the orcs and humans (and the BE, NE you just mentioned) are like He-man : what men think men should look like. This is where the sexism is. The vision of a male team aiming at a male audience and dictating the designs. As I said, it is not the most terribly harmful form of sexism.

It's just the dying hard frustrating habit of the industry and IMO the reason why female ogres have yet to be made ingame. Blizz just can't make an honestly decent ugly woman, because they think the playerbase won't play it.

[Triceron]

Draenei has extreme dimorphism... Like, the male would crush the female if they ever decided to lay on top of each other. His biceps are thicker than her thighs...
Always wondered how they could even belong to the same race.

They're space goats, so they prolly do it doggy style.

[Inoculate]

Oh well. I guess I was wrong and the outdated mentality that brings this sexual dimorphism affects all races, then.



Okay. I'll have to reformulate.

It's a videogame made mostly by boys, for boys. It has become very obvious since that interview resurfaced with a girl saying "Can we have females that are not out of a Victoria Secret magazine ?" and the team responding "lol which magazine do you want them to be out of ? lol"

So it has to appeal to boys right ? So, sexy women and cool monsters. Sexy women and cool monsters are what we have.

And no, every male is not in the most generic sexy self. Ask your girlfriend maybe, but I doubt the hunched orcs and trolls are the most appealing to girls. I doubt that the very obese pandarens are the generic beauty standard for men.

At most, the orcs and humans are like He-man, what men think men should look like. This is where the sexism lies. The vision of a male team aiming at a male audience and dictating the design. As I said, it is not the most terribly harmful form of sexism.

It's just the dying hard frustrating habit of the industry and IMO the reason why female ogres have yet to be made ingame. Blizz just can't make an honestly decent ugly woman, because they think the playerbase won't play it.

And apparently, given the popularity of the Kul tiran females, the playerbase is proving them right.
(Although I don't know what would have happened if they actually had the balls to make a big angry woman design instead of what we have here, some girls that look neither buffed nor fat and looking quite bland instead of tough.)

Well, what you want isn't clear and if you check my post history you'll see I'm all for equity and proper representation. I don't find most the females in the game to be cute or attractive so if you are finding everyone attractive, that's your personal taste.

[DatToffer]

Well, what you want isn't clear and if you check my post history you'll see I'm all for equity and proper representation. I don't find most the females in the game to be cute or attractive so if you are finding everyone attractive, that's your personal taste.

Honestly at this point all I want is to be understood.

[sensei]

Because if they made ogres playable before murlocs players would storm Blizzard headquarters with torches and pitchforks?

[Kyphael]

I'm still waiting to play a two headed Ogre Warlock or Mage.

[username993720]

I honestly don't know what you mean, Rexxar and in-game ogres look different from Kultirans. Pay more atention to the legs, the torso and the shoulders. They are different.

Rexxar uses a Kul Tiran model, as of BfA.
Ogres are, indeed, different model-wise (using the Moonkin skeleton) but could be given Kul Tiran skeletons to make them playable.

why would ogres need a female model?

To become playable.

Doors. Ogres aren't going to fit through most door frames, and a significant number of doorways are part of instanced content in addition to outdoor content (ie. questing).

As you said, Rexxar-sized model would solve this issue.

Best bet for adding an Ogre-related race would be to add Mok'nathal, use the Orc models as a base and scale them up by about 10% or so in size. For a unique feature they could go with horn options, I know Rexxar lacks horns but I don't see why they couldn't add horns to playable Mok'nathal. For faction parity I'd like to see the Alliance get Vykrul in return (slightly shrunken Vykrul, they'd need to be scaled down about 15% to avoid the door frame issue that Ogres would have).

He doesn't use the Orc skeleton anymore, but a Kul Tiran one. So, no: an Ogre playable race would not use the Orc skeleton.

As for Vrykul, you already have the Kyrian, who use a modified female Vrykul skeleton, for reference.

I'd definitely play an Ogre. I don't care if the character is dumb or ugly, it has its own unique charm.

Likewise I'd love a buff Forest Troll as well.

I really don't understand how these races haven't been added to Horde yet, they have a long history with the Horde and canonically are part of the Horde, we just can't play them.

Finally, someone mentioned the Forest Trolls. Just like the Ogres, they have a long history with the Horde and deserve their place among them.
They were part of the Old Horde, Horde of Draenor, Dark Horde and New Horde.

But you're right, unlike taurens, we have examples of pretty gigantic ogres in wow that would make the playable ones look like children. Or low level.

Almost every NPC we encounter is bigger than it is supposed to be.

Because if they made ogres playable before murlocs players would storm Blizzard headquarters with torches and pitchforks?

Thanking them.

[Nerovar]

You're really gonna make me repeat myself aren't ya ?

It's a videogame made mostly by boys, for boys. It has become very obvious since that interview resurfaced with a girl saying "Can we have females that are not out of a Victoria Secret magazine ?" and the team responding "lol which magazine do you want them to be out of ? lol"

So it has to appeal to boys right ? So, sexy women and cool monsters. Sexy women and cool monsters are what we have.

And no, every male is not in the most generic sexy self. Ask your girlfriend maybe, but I doubt the hunched orcs and trolls are the most appealing to girls. I doubt that the very obese pandarens are the generic beauty standard for men.

At most, the orcs and humans (and the BE, NE you just mentioned) are like He-man : what men think men should look like. This is where the sexism is. The vision of a male team aiming at a male audience and dictating the designs. As I said, it is not the most terribly harmful form of sexism.

It's just the dying hard frustrating habit of the industry and IMO the reason why female ogres have yet to be made ingame. Blizz just can't make an honestly decent ugly woman, because they think the playerbase won't play it.

I'm curious. What do you think women want their characters to look like?

[DatToffer]

I'm curious. What do you think women want their characters to look like?

Can't tell for sure since I don't think all women want the same thing. I guess you'd have to let them make the decision on art direction to really know.

As for now, not having designs ruined by the «appealing to male majority» marketing habit would be fine.

[Polyxo]

Women are attracted to men with layers. And ogres have layers.

Parfaits also have lairs. Parfait race now Bliz.