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  1. #521
    The Lightbringer De Lupe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    You're not wrong, but i think Blizzard also had extremely unreasonable expectations towards the game, the fact that they so badly tried to push the game into E-sports was a damn bad call.

    It created a bubble that the game never could live up to.

    And while i don't want bash more on HotS, the game does unfortunately summarize two very bad traits of Blizzard
    (1) Way too slow in development
    (2) Completey unable to read the room
    *Sigh*

    I miss HotS updates.
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  2. #522
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    It's pretty obvious most of it riding a bandwagon for views. None of those people actually found a game that happened this year to be perfect or suddenly realized wow is "bad" so what's happening here is that they think that hate for wow sells and they jump on a bandwagon of the streamer culture in the hope they'll get their subs count higher.
    How about you play whatever it is you like to play and not give a damn about what twitch streamers play?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Empower View Post
    Also blizzard has admitted to selling reforged in a broken state and unlike square enix they didn't give away the product for free after...
    SE has never given away a broken game. FFXIV was absolute garbage, but if you didn't buy the original release, you didn't get ARR for free. Unless you're talking about the free trial, in which World of Warcraft has offered similar for a long time, and SE never offered the significant free trail FFXIV has now as a result of the original 1.0 release being garbage. The free trial up through Heavensward came much later because they were making enough sales from the current game not being terrible to be able to support offering the base game and SOME expansion content for free.

  3. #523
    Quote Originally Posted by Neuroticaine View Post
    How about you play whatever it is you like to play and not give a damn about what twitch streamers play?

    - - - Updated - - -



    SE has never given away a broken game. FFXIV was absolute garbage, but if you didn't buy the original release, you didn't get ARR for free. Unless you're talking about the free trial, in which World of Warcraft has offered similar for a long time, and SE never offered the significant free trail FFXIV has now as a result of the original 1.0 release being garbage. The free trial up through Heavensward came much later because they were making enough sales from the current game not being terrible to be able to support offering the base game and SOME expansion content for free.
    I got a real reborn for free so you maybe confused there. They also stopped collecting subs till the servers went down. Now to this day they have a system where if you unsub from ff 11 they delete your characters and that does suck.

  4. #524
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Give it some time, sooner or later the retail wow streamers will be back - when new content arrives.
    This attitude right here is why WoW is suffering immensely. The expectations of return, you almost sound like I imagine the devs sounded. The amount of players has halved across all blizzard games in four years, this isn't doom saying or me wishing the game dead (I truly want it to be great again), It's facts.

    It's a borderline abusive relationship attitude to expect them to come back, some of them found an escape hatch and separated themselves from being known as WoW content creators, I don't see why they'd risk coming back for the bread crumbs of content the devs provide during an expansion and risk being categorized as a "WoW streamer" again.
    Last edited by Varitok; 2021-08-24 at 06:27 AM.

  5. #525
    Quote Originally Posted by Varitok View Post
    This attitude right here is why WoW is suffering immensely. The expectations of return, you almost sound like I imagine the devs sounded. The amount of players has halved across all blizzard games in four years, this isn't doom saying or me wishing the game dead (I truly want it to be great again), It's facts.

    It's a borderline abusive relationship attitude to expect them to come back, some of them found an escape hatch and separated themselves from being known as WoW content creators, I don't see why they'd risk coming back for the bread crumbs of content the devs provide during an expansion and risk being categorized as a "WoW streamer" again.
    To be fair, what we know of 9.1.5 shows a distinct change in direction. Sure, its like 5-10%, but its not 9.0.5 which was a doubling down. I wish i could remember 8.1.5 (since 8.2 was amazing for players like me), actually, 8.1 was really fun for me with the jaina story (i resubbed around 8.1.5 so lack perspective). All im seeing right now is a focus on qol. This makes me relatively optimistic theyre having a change of heart... so im optimistic. Im not on board... im just optimistic.

  6. #526
    The reason that people are leaving is because the devs under Ion's leadership have mismanaged the game into the ground, OCD fixating on systems and numbers instead of content.

    All it took was a few content creators to successfully cut the cord for others to see it as a viable option and do the same.

  7. #527
    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    To be fair, what we know of 9.1.5 shows a distinct change in direction. Sure, its like 5-10%, but its not 9.0.5 which was a doubling down. I wish i could remember 8.1.5 (since 8.2 was amazing for players like me), actually, 8.1 was really fun for me with the jaina story (i resubbed around 8.1.5 so lack perspective). All im seeing right now is a focus on qol. This makes me relatively optimistic theyre having a change of heart... so im optimistic. Im not on board... im just optimistic.
    Sir we are posting negativty around here. May I remind you of the chart?

    Is it shadowlands related ? Bad

    Wow classic ? bad but better than SL

    Ff14 related ? praise

    We had a meeting about this god dam it ippolite

  8. #528
    Quote Originally Posted by ArenaDk View Post
    Sir we are posting negativty around here. May I remind you of the chart?

    Is it shadowlands related ? Bad

    Wow classic ? bad but better than SL

    Ff14 related ? praise

    We had a meeting about this god dam it ippolite
    Dont get too smug . I said its 10% at best! But it is a trend line and thats cool. I do expect exponentials/logscale though. (I hope youll forgive my... distrust, though... i really want to be hype, but ive played since very early vanilla, and by my count, this is their third attempt to, lets say, 'recalibrate the core gameplay experience'). So im not quite ready to rejoice. But its a positive start, at least.
    Last edited by ippollite; 2021-08-24 at 11:01 AM.

  9. #529
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empower View Post
    Blizzard broke the sacred rule. The one that poisons and kills all who do. They sold power. You can try to deflect around that pointing out some small server from way back when selling runs for a fraction of the price to an extremely limited number of clients but it's simply not the same thing.
    Blizzard does not sell power. They sell gold. You even acknowledge that carries existed prior to the token but dismiss it "as a some small server". Gold Bid runs existed in the past. The explosion in popularity of the modern carry came from the Garrison in WoD and predates the existence of the token. It was because anyone could essentially print gold with the garrison that they became cemented in the player base. The token wasn't introduced until later in WoD.

    It isn't a deflection to acknowledge that everything the token is blamed for existed prior to. It is just reality and putting blame where blame is due instead of using a singular scapegoat.
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  10. #530
    Just red button nuke all the gold from game and start it from zero and delete the token. No WoD veteran sitting on a mountain of gold and sellers loose their stock

  11. #531
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    Quote Originally Posted by vashe9 View Post
    I'm still on my old guild discord and most of people raiding are new people I don't even know because most of the old players stopped playing too... it probably means something, no ?
    Same here. Most of the older players in my guild quit wow over the last few weeks. 50-60% new players.
    My gametime will expire the next few days and i dont think i will come back.

  12. #532
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Blizzard does not sell power. They sell gold. You even acknowledge that carries existed prior to the token but dismiss it "as a some small server". Gold Bid runs existed in the past. The explosion in popularity of the modern carry came from the Garrison in WoD and predates the existence of the token. It was because anyone could essentially print gold with the garrison that they became cemented in the player base. The token wasn't introduced until later in WoD.

    It isn't a deflection to acknowledge that everything the token is blamed for existed prior to. It is just reality and putting blame where blame is due instead of using a singular scapegoat.
    I sell carries it's how I pay for wow since I mostly just raid log now. A single carry discord I used had 648 buyers this week and all of them paid via token. Embracing real money trading is never going to be seen positively no matter how you try to spin it. The carries pretoken where rare... you had maybe one or two teams on most servers doing them not cartels of players.

    It also isn't excusable how blizzard just let's them run wild. They need to hire actual gms to actively mute them. The average spammer needs to have an account life of roughly 5 minutes compared to the 5 weeks it enjoys now.

    People are tired with blizzards lazy approach to their game. I admit a lot of the heat blizzard gets is from being constant fuck ups but that doesn't mean the issues brought up are not valid. Right now with final fantasy the game is good so players are more forgiving. WoW is in a terrible state with blizzard having managed to piss off every player base at once with a combination of lowered rewards, extremely tedious and long grinds, and insultingly bad storylines.

    The chickens have just finally come home to roost.

  13. #533
    Quote Originally Posted by odamienskii View Post
    Classic is dead? since when? you go to stormwind at 5am on classic there is 30/40 people around trade go to oribos there is maybe 4/5
    Standards have truly dipped if this is a sign of the game being well and alive.

  14. #534
    Quote Originally Posted by Varitok View Post
    This attitude right here is why WoW is suffering immensely. The expectations of return, you almost sound like I imagine the devs sounded. The amount of players has halved across all blizzard games in four years, this isn't doom saying or me wishing the game dead (I truly want it to be great again), It's facts.

    It's a borderline abusive relationship attitude to expect them to come back, some of them found an escape hatch and separated themselves from being known as WoW content creators, I don't see why they'd risk coming back for the bread crumbs of content the devs provide during an expansion and risk being categorized as a "WoW streamer" again.
    I dont disagree with your take at all. I know(everyone should know) that Blizzard has less players overall in the games they have. But the thing with wow is that people have always returned, atleast enough people each time a xpac launches. Thats how its always been with wow, not the other games. Most Blizzard IPs are left dead except wow.

    Right now its expected to take a dump on anything Blizzard related and that will keep on going. But - if Blizzard actually manages to pull out a great 10.0 xpac, things might turn. Content creators might not return to wow, but they might as players. It will probably be a rough situation for content creators if wow takes a turn for the better and is actually a great MMORPG again. Should they stick to what they said about never going back to wow or give in?

    In the end I bet most of these content creators will have something to do with wow, cause the constant dumping on wow will never not be popular.
    Last edited by crusadernero; 2021-08-24 at 03:49 PM.

  15. #535
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empower View Post
    I sell carries it's how I pay for wow since I mostly just raid log now. A single carry discord I used had 648 buyers this week and all of them paid via token. Embracing real money trading is never going to be seen positively no matter how you try to spin it. The carries pretoken where rare... you had maybe one or two teams on most servers doing them not cartels of players.
    They were not rare though. Garrisons is what caused the popularity to sky rocket because even the average person could amass a ton of gold. The token wouldn't be so popular if people couldn't make gold. Because the gold is 100% player sourced from the token.

    Blizzard doesn't just let them run wild. They keep taking active steps to limit advertisement in the LFG tool. The most recent change was to stop who can make and list groups. Trade chat isn't against the rules. Should it be? Sure. There are servers out there though that see little trade chat advertisment. So it isn't a universal one but just one that high pop servers see because there is a bigger target for the groups.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  16. #536
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    They were not rare though. Garrisons is what caused the popularity to sky rocket because even the average person could amass a ton of gold. The token wouldn't be so popular if people couldn't make gold. Because the gold is 100% player sourced from the token.

    Blizzard doesn't just let them run wild. They keep taking active steps to limit advertisement in the LFG tool. The most recent change was to stop who can make and list groups. Trade chat isn't against the rules. Should it be? Sure. There are servers out there though that see little trade chat advertisment. So it isn't a universal one but just one that high pop servers see because there is a bigger target for the groups.
    They need to try a hell of a lot harder... searching 15 shouldnt give me 3 pages worth of ads before real groups.. hell it's what got me running 20s since you can get actually groups for those.

  17. #537
    Quote Originally Posted by Leviathan1488 View Post
    I'm happy this is happening , it's time they start making World of Warcraft 2 and reinvent & modernize the whole franchise. Wow has been boring since Cata.

    They will never make a new mmo when people keep playing Wow.
    And I'm not going to stop playing wow just because Wow2 is out lol.
    If Blizz gets rid of Wow then I'll be on a private server
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  18. #538
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You are not even talking about company versus company though. You are comparing Blizzard to Final Fantasy 14. You keep stacking the deck in order to complain. Square as a company has done greedy things that you don't list and you ignore. Weird right? Because it isn't about who is greedier or not. It is about bashing Blizzard and defending your "new love".

    It was never stated that Blizzard, or WoW, is not greedy. It was stated that if WoW is greedy because of a cash shop then its competitors have to be equally greedy or greedier then WoW because of their expanded cash shops. But people always find ways to make other games acceptable while trashing WoW. But someone talked bad about your new love so you are charging into to defend it at all costs. Lol.
    It was never about "bashing" blizzard and defending my love. I acknowledged that both have cash shops which are dubiously greedy, skimming more money off the top. That's been your WeirdChamp obsession this whole time, projecting some kind of unhinged fanboy image onto my posts. Stop projecting.

    You kept claiming that SQUARE was the greedier COMPANY. And you have since failed to defend that stance.

    All I did was provide facts, that nobody buys the great majority of event items on the FF store. That blizzard has constantly been at the cutting edge of corporate greed, copying money-making methods from gacha games and gambling rings. You haven't even denied these things, you've just called me "mad" "triggered" and now unhinged. When you use ad homs such as these and cant even address the facts presented, you've already lost. You have no real argument, so you call me names and try to paint me as some rabid fanboy frothing at the mouth. It's both aughable and pathetic.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Dunno how the cash shop works in FF, but atleast in wow its not throw in your face.
    This is something addressed by a lot of streamers and youtubers. When playing the game normally, the only time the cash shop is referenced is on the launcher, and only when they add a new item. WoW content creators compared this to WoW, where Blizzard makes sure you know th cash shop is available in game, as well as regularly popping up windows in game to tell you of new store mounts and pets. Plus the ever present WoW token.

    These are not my words, but the words of content creators who play both games. They complain that Blizzard is more direct about making sure you know the cash shop is in game.

    But I have agreed this whole time with one point. Cash shops are not healthy for a game. But if the game is good otherwise, it is something that can be overlooked and ignored. If a game is riddled with issues, terrible gameplay and systems, then the cash shop just becomes another turd on the pile of garbage. I've never once defended the cash shop as a good thing. Just correcting misconceptions and falsehoods dome are claiming. The WoW token as a separate entity from the cash shop is in my opinion 50 times worse than the cash shop. Sanctioned gold buying turns my gut. It's disgusting that its allowed, and it's even more disgusting that certain people are defending it.

    I could call them fanboys, wow andies, mad, unhinged, triggered, but personally attacking someone rather than addressing the meat of what they say is pretty much admitting defeat before you've even hit the post button.

    - - - Updated - - -

    On topic, Zach streamed WoW last night and the WOW fans started celebrating in chat that he'd quit FF.

    FFXIV was in maintenance last night, and Zach is back to full time FF streaming today. It was super cringe watching people shit on FF to the degree those people were. That kind of naked tribalism is ultra cringe.
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  19. #539
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    It was never about "bashing" blizzard and defending my love. I acknowledged that both have cash shops which are dubiously greedy, skimming more money off the top. That's been your WeirdChamp obsession this whole time, projecting some kind of unhinged fanboy image onto my posts. Stop projecting.
    So you agree with what I said yet still use lengthy posts to disagree with what I said? Lol. I haven't failed to defend my claims at all. Final Fantasy has a cash shop with more items which makes it greedier. It doesn't matter if some are past events or some are items you can no longer obtain. What matters is that they exist and they exist for money just to make more money. Which is greed. They could have been given for free or for in-game gold right?

    Most companies are at the cutting edge of greed. They seek to make the most money off of their products that they can and Square Enix is no exception. Did you not see their cash grab Marvel Avengers (which actually lost them $40 million)? You can't see, or don't even know, the things Square Enix has done in the past. That isn't even what the discussion as about yet you keep claiming a list of Blizzard's greed is irrefutable proof that they are the greediest company around. You even claimed they are greedier then gotcha games which is hilarious.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  20. #540
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    It was never about "bashing" blizzard and defending my love. I acknowledged that both have cash shops which are dubiously greedy, skimming more money off the top. That's been your WeirdChamp obsession this whole time, projecting some kind of unhinged fanboy image onto my posts. Stop projecting.

    You kept claiming that SQUARE was the greedier COMPANY. And you have since failed to defend that stance.

    All I did was provide facts, that nobody buys the great majority of event items on the FF store. That blizzard has constantly been at the cutting edge of corporate greed, copying money-making methods from gacha games and gambling rings. You haven't even denied these things, you've just called me "mad" "triggered" and now unhinged. When you use ad homs such as these and cant even address the facts presented, you've already lost. You have no real argument, so you call me names and try to paint me as some rabid fanboy frothing at the mouth. It's both aughable and pathetic.

    - - - Updated - - -



    This is something addressed by a lot of streamers and youtubers. When playing the game normally, the only time the cash shop is referenced is on the launcher, and only when they add a new item. WoW content creators compared this to WoW, where Blizzard makes sure you know th cash shop is available in game, as well as regularly popping up windows in game to tell you of new store mounts and pets. Plus the ever present WoW token.

    These are not my words, but the words of content creators who play both games. They complain that Blizzard is more direct about making sure you know the cash shop is in game.

    But I have agreed this whole time with one point. Cash shops are not healthy for a game. But if the game is good otherwise, it is something that can be overlooked and ignored. If a game is riddled with issues, terrible gameplay and systems, then the cash shop just becomes another turd on the pile of garbage. I've never once defended the cash shop as a good thing. Just correcting misconceptions and falsehoods dome are claiming. The WoW token as a separate entity from the cash shop is in my opinion 50 times worse than the cash shop. Sanctioned gold buying turns my gut. It's disgusting that its allowed, and it's even more disgusting that certain people are defending it.

    I could call them fanboys, wow andies, mad, unhinged, triggered, but personally attacking someone rather than addressing the meat of what they say is pretty much admitting defeat before you've even hit the post button.

    - - - Updated - - -

    On topic, Zach streamed WoW last night and the WOW fans started celebrating in chat that he'd quit FF.

    FFXIV was in maintenance last night, and Zach is back to full time FF streaming today. It was super cringe watching people shit on FF to the degree those people were. That kind of naked tribalism is ultra cringe.
    Just want to say i agree with your post. Well said.

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