Rage quitters in m+ deserve a massive penalty

[Hamburger]

To be honest, I just report leavers (without a justified reason, like an emergency) as griefing and then block them.

[Stormwolf64]

I've only done one and it was very easy to do so. People were stressing and shouting over mistakes. Fuck those people so hard they cant walk for a year

[Alroxas]

Im not sure why I'm even taking part in this discussion, but there should be commitment when you are part of m+ group.

Eh... now you're mandating a social construct among strangers when no such contract exists. At the minimum, your suggestion (locked out of M+ for remaining time of dungeon timer) means that effectively you're holding players hostage for 20~30 minutes.

Moreover, imagine the degenerate gameplay if such a system exists. Here's an example:

The group clearly lacks the DPS/knowledge to do the first boss let alone the rest of the dungeon. If you leave, then you're benched for 20+ minutes so instead of leaving, the player (who wants to leave) either:

A) Doesn't do anything period. Is active enough so that they don't trigger the AFK timer but doesn't contribute so effectively everybody is waiting that 20+ minutes.

B) Purposely plays bad but you can't tell if they are being a bad player or trolling the group. Maybe they pull extra trash. Or body pulls (by accident) the next pack. Or doesn't use their DPS cooldowns. Or uses group DPS cooldowns at random points (i.e. pops Lust just as the last add is about to die).

Also counter how many m+ you left that were not completed? No matter whether you were the one who left first or later. You are inside the m+ group and you dont complete it, a number grows by one. It should show something like sum of week or month. Legitimate players should have lower number than troll or ragequitter.

So then even legitimate players are dragged down by those who ruin the key. Further disincentivizing random PuG M+.

I guess if you wanted to force players to play with known people versus strangers, this last bit would be the way to go.

- - - Updated - - -

Penalty sure is needed. Blacklisting is useless because no one is willing to run 100 000 dungeons to get 50 000 leavers out of their system.

Maybe, depends on how blacklisting is done. On an individual basis, yeah it would take a long time but if you crowdsourced it by compiling all the players blacklisted players (centered on accounts and not individual toons) then filtered the top 5% across a region so that those players could only PuG amongst those top 5%. So ragequitters can only play with other ragequitters.

Maybe put in a time buffer so that eventually those in the top 5% of being blacklisted could cycle out eventually but don't tell players so the players can't game the system.

- - - Updated - - -

The problem with M+ is the penalty of a keystone downgrade. Maybe if you could pull in people mid timer, it would mitigate the damage one player could do to the entire group.

If you could pull in people mid-run, then what is to prevent a group of 4 replacing the 5th just prior to fighting the last boss of a dungeon so their friend carry can get the benefit?

Sounds like a lot more abuse would happen under such a system.

- - - Updated - - -

m+ deserve being completely removed from the game

Then you might as well remove dungeons as well. Because functionally dungeons have ZERO purpose without M+.

Cataclysm dungeons were a good example. At launch, you would do up to 9 dungeons because they had relevant gear drops but quickly once we got to the next content patch, that dropped down to 2 dungeons then finally up to 3 dungeons (because why run the initial 9 when the later 3 gave better loot).

M+ keeps dungeons relevant throughout the entire expansion because the loot drops can stay competitive with the raid tier. Yeah that also means that loot cycle can be stale (i.e. running DoS for the Nth time to get the most recent season's version of IQD) but at least it keeps players doing dungeons.

- - - Updated - - -

ppl like this need a sever penalty for doing this either that or blizzard and mmoc forums need to start allowing naming and shaming as ppl will keep doing this until they are know.

Why? Was the run advertised as going for completion regardless of time? Was the key marked as Push/Timing? Why did the group leader make that comp? What factors lead to the recruitment of those people?

Again we can go back the bottom line, why should someone (anyone) stay longer than they have to once they have determined that anymore investment of their time would be wasted? Sure your own time is valuable to you, but other players also share that same view. So in their minds, if their time is better served dropping this group for another, who are you to say "no you can't do that"?

If you want more successful PuGs (especially in M+) then be up front about the goals of the group and the skill/knowledge of the players before starting the key. Make sure everyone is in agreement of the goals and acceptance of skill/knowledge so everyone knows what they are getting into. Anything short of that, and it's entirely the fault of the group leader for not doing their due diligence in forming the group.

- - - Updated - - -

You go do content like m+, you should commit the minimum time. Even if your group sucks, you should have commited enough time.

Well I only commit to the group if they are actually of the appropriate skill and knowledge in relation to the content being done. If we're doing a +15 and the tank doesn't even know the basics of the first boss' mechanics then I'm outta there.

Even on lower keys (lower than 9), I will comment if I see players fundamentally screwing up mechanics like not interrupting a key ability. After a few instances where the other players ignore those comments to improve then I'm outta there as well. After all if they aren't even going to attempt to fix their failures then why the hell should I help carry them through the dungeon?

If the other players can't value my time then I don't have any respect for theirs either.

Go in the group assuming they are bad and you might be there until the max time.

And what exactly is max time? A few hours? Half a day? Who has that kind of time?

[Alexeht]

-snip-

m+ killed raiding for me, and I will stick to it

[Morae]

And what exactly is max time? A few hours? Half a day? Who has that kind of time?

M+ timer? I thought it was obvious.

All this is basically based on what I recall overwatch having in their comp with just adjustment to wow. At least was. I havent really played that game in a long time. If you dc too many times in the comp, you could not play it anymore. It didn't matter if it was legitimate or not. You went in, you commited to that comp match. You leave early, dc, troll, ragequit, etc., they didn't want you there.

Additionally, I feel people take this a bit too far. If you dc or leave just once or twice, it probably wouldn't matter at all. Most people likely would have a few marks that , if you recall my suggestion, would fall of in a week, two weeks or month. Whatever devs would find ok. Nothing would change, if you arent a ragequiter or troll.

[Empower]

M+ timer? I thought it was obvious.

All this is basically based on what I recall overwatch having in their comp with just adjustment to wow. At least was. I havent really played that game in a long time. If you dc too many times in the comp, you could not play it anymore. It didn't matter if it was legitimate or not. You went in, you commited to that comp match. You leave early, dc, troll, ragequit, etc., they didn't want you there.

Additionally, I feel people take this a bit too far. If you dc or leave just once or twice, it probably wouldn't matter at all. Most people likely would have a few marks that , if you recall my suggestion, would fall of in a week, two weeks or month. Whatever devs would find ok. Nothing would change, if you arent a ragequiter or troll.

I can't say I agree with the idea of investing a significant amount of time in a doomed run. A lot of wow players want a never say die clear a key bit matter what with levels of wiping that would never be considered acceptable pre mythic plus.

I don't see the value in being forced to wait out a clearly doomed run I rather just move on.

[thunderdragon2]

To be honest, I just report leavers (without a justified reason, like an emergency) as griefing and then block them.

sadly you cant block them unless you whisper them or they have said something in chat........

[kamuimac]

I can't say I agree with the idea of investing a significant amount of time in a doomed run. A lot of wow players want a never say day clear a key bit matter what with levels of wiping that would never be considered acceptable pre mythic plus.

I don't see the value in being forced to wait out a clearly doomed run I rather just move on.

its because of clear conflict of interest

you as good player dont want to waste time boosting bad players so you leave

they as bad players dont want to waste time by having to remake group and start again and want to get boosted

ofc they will do anything possible to force you into boosting them

[thunderdragon2]

Why? Was the run advertised as going for completion regardless of time? Was the key marked as Push/Timing? Why did the group leader make that comp? What factors lead to the recruitment of those people?

Again we can go back the bottom line, why should someone (anyone) stay longer than they have to once they have determined that anymore investment of their time would be wasted? Sure your own time is valuable to you, but other players also share that same view. So in their minds, if their time is better served dropping this group for another, who are you to say "no you can't do that"?

If you want more successful PuGs (especially in M+) then be up front about the goals of the group and the skill/knowledge of the players before starting the key. Make sure everyone is in agreement of the goals and acceptance of skill/knowledge so everyone knows what they are getting into. Anything short of that, and it's entirely the fault of the group leader for not doing their due diligence in forming the group.

yes ive stated in the tool and be4 i started the run that its just for completion to read i shouldn't be penalised for other peoples inability or unwillingness to read. i have noticed that people don't read that's in the advertisement at all i'll give you an example i had made a grp on my bear for spires 12 and still lacked hero so i put in the title need hero and i kid you not the 1st 3 applicants apon listing were as follows in this order a warrior a ret pala and a dh.

and when we get to the last boss with 3 mins left a dps thinks we aren't going to make it and leaves we were 12 secs over the timer

[Bloodyleech]

sadly you cant block them unless you whisper them or they have said something in chat........

Ofc you can ignore people without these using the chat first.
Type: /ignore Name-Server

[ClassicPeon]

This is a two way problem so its not as easy as just punnishing half of the problem.

When you enter into a m+ its usually with a pre-existing arrangement.

If you sign up for a 15+ dungeon the + implies its on time. So when people dont meet the requirements, or enough goes wrong, people will probably leave.

There are people who agree with this pov and want all runs to finish no matter if they are timed or not and there are people who are only there for the on time rating.

Unless blizzard starts supporting the lfg tool with "on time" vs "just finnish" check boxes this problem wont be fixed.

[thunderdragon2]

Ofc you can ignore people without these using the chat first.
Type: /ignore Name-Server

i tried that 90% of the time it just comes up with 0 players found sadly.....

[Eli85]

Some of the takes in this thread are just baffling.

There should be no penalty, never mind a massive penalty, for people leaving a M+ group, regardless if it is "rage quitting" or not.

If the run is not going as expected (based on the group's intentions when you joined), leaving the group is acceptable. If the run is frustrating for the player, leaving the group is acceptable. If the group is toxic in any way, leaving the group is acceptable.

This is a game, folks. This is not work. This is not an esports league. This is not an organization. This is a game. If you are no longer having fun in a game, removing yourself from the activity is not a degenerate behavior.

[thunderdragon2]

Some of the takes in this thread are just baffling.

There should be no penalty, never mind a massive penalty, for people leaving a M+ group, regardless if it is "rage quitting" or not.

If the run is not going as expected (based on the group's intentions when you joined), leaving the group is acceptable. If the run is frustrating for the player, leaving the group is acceptable. If the group is toxic in any way, leaving the group is acceptable.

This is a game, folks. This is not work. This is not an esports league. This is not an organization. This is a game. If you are no longer having fun in a game, removing yourself from the activity is not a degenerate behavior.

i completely disagree with this if i list a grp stating in the title that its a vault run and some1 leaves the instant we wipe or the timers going out, imo they should be penalised and heavily and don't give me any crap about them not having the time, IF THEY DONT HAVE TIME, THE SHOULDN'T JOIN OR APPPLY! its not my job to baby people that wont read the listing. if the cant or wont read it that's not my fault or problem its theirs

[Tyris Flare]

Some of the takes in this thread are just baffling.

There should be no penalty, never mind a massive penalty, for people leaving a M+ group, regardless if it is "rage quitting" or not.

If the run is not going as expected (based on the group's intentions when you joined), leaving the group is acceptable. If the run is frustrating for the player, leaving the group is acceptable. If the group is toxic in any way, leaving the group is acceptable.

This is a game, folks. This is not work. This is not an esports league. This is not an organization. This is a game. If you are no longer having fun in a game, removing yourself from the activity is not a degenerate behavior.

I mean broadly, sure. But if you agree to do a group thing with other people there is (or should be) a basic covenant that you don't want to waste their time, and that they shouldn't waste yours. So leaving if you have an emergency or because the key is falling apart is all well and good, but yeeting off because you lost interest halfway through is just douchey imo.

That said, they can't (and shouldn't) police this. Any cure would be worse than the disease.

[Empower]

Wouldn't a solution be to add some kind of setting for what difficulty level you want 1-30 for example and simply remove the keystone system?

It seems that having difficulty be a risked resource is the cause of most of the friction.

[Eli85]

i completely disagree with this if i list a grp stating in the title that its a vault run and some1 leaves the instant we wipe or the timers going out, imo they should be penalised and heavily and don't give me any crap about them not having the time, IF THEY DONT HAVE TIME, THE SHOULDN'T JOIN OR APPPLY! its not my job to baby people that wont read the listing. if the cant or wont read it that's not my fault or problem its theirs

There are two sides to to this hypothetical vault run: group wipe and timer going out. For the latter, when you join a vault run group, there is an explicit notion that it may not be timed, so leaving for that reason and that reason alone is crummy. The former, however, is not the same. When your group wipes, it's easy to tell what went wrong and why. If I see incompetence from that wipe, it's a clear signal that the rest of the run is going to be ... taxing. In this hypothetical, I didn't sign up for a wipefest, so leaving is completely acceptable, regardless of perceived hurt feelings or whatever else.

The problem with your take here is you're reading too narrowly into the reason why someone leaves. I may join your group agreeing to an untimed vault run, but that doesn't mean I agreed to wipe repeatedly with subpar players.

Most of all: if something is no longer fun, coercing people to stay is really, really bad. It doesn't foster good relationships, both with other players and the game.

I mean broadly, sure. But if you agree to do a group thing with other people there is (or should be) a basic covenant that you don't want to waste their time, and that they shouldn't waste yours. So leaving if you have an emergency or because the key is falling apart is all well and good, but yeeting off because you lost interest halfway through is just douchey imo.

That said, they can't (and shouldn't) police this. Any cure would be worse than the disease.

More or less agree, though I wouldn't equate "losing interest" in the same way of not having fun. They can certainly intersect, but if I simply lost interest, and there is no issue with the group otherwise, that is definitely on me, and if I leave in that hypothetical scenario I would certainly be in the wrong.

[thunderdragon2]

There are two sides to to this hypothetical vault run: group wipe and timer going out. For the latter, when you join a vault run group, there is an explicit notion that it may not be timed, so leaving for that reason and that reason alone is crummy. The former, however, is not the same. When your group wipes, it's easy to tell what went wrong and why. If I see incompetence from that wipe, it's a clear signal that the rest of the run is going to be ... taxing. In this hypothetical, I didn't sign up for a wipefest, so leaving is completely acceptable, regardless of perceived hurt feelings or whatever else.

The problem with your take here is you're reading too narrowly into the reason why someone leaves. I may join your group agreeing to an untimed vault run, but that doesn't mean I agreed to wipe repeatedly with subpar players.

Most of all: if something is no longer fun, coercing people to stay is really, really bad. It doesn't foster good relationships, both with other players and the game

fair enough but that im describing is what im seeing the majority of times, and im not taking subpar ppl unless i want to make the run easier to deal with for example no 1 with hero is signing up and no 1 with drums, im taking people with a reasonable io and ilvl for that dungeon, which means i wont take someone with 225 ilvl and 200 score to a 12 even if its a vault run i hope that example clears up what im doing with my vault runs.

personally i think with how the scoring system works 1.1-1.3k and say 230 ilvl is reasonable for a 12 since everyone has their won definition of that's reasonable for what level of content feel free to disagree with this, if i was pushing it i would have higher score requirements

[Eli85]

fair enough but that im describing is what im seeing the majority of times, and im not taking subpar ppl unless i want to make the run easier to deal with for example no 1 with hero is signing up and no 1 with drums, im taking people with a reasonable io and ilvl for that dungeon, which means i wont take someone with 225 ilvl and 200 score to a 12 even if its a vault run i hope that example clears up what im doing with my vault runs.

personally i think with how the scoring system works 1.1-1.3k and say 230 ilvl is reasonable for a 12 since everyone has their won definition of that's reasonable for what level of content feel free to disagree with this, if i was pushing it i would have higher score requirements

Score and iLevel are very misleading. It's all too common to join a group with a reasonable score and ilevel for the dungeon in question, just to find out after the dungeon starts that the group either can't time the dungeon, or it will take a lot of wipes for the untimed completion. This is the largest, most singly frustrating aspect of pugging M+. I don't doubt that you see leavers the majority of times, and I'm sure there are some unhinged rage quitters in there as well, but I reckon most people who leave M+ groups do so because what they expect the group to be doesn't correlate with reality, even when score and ilevel say otherwise.

[Alroxas]

There are people who agree with this pov and want all runs to finish no matter if they are timed or not and there are people who are only there for the on time rating.

Technically, the changes in season 2 allow for a score even if you don't time the key. Granted the score drops the longer the key goes on but a few seconds over the timer on a +17 can be better than a +15 finished exactly on time.

Some have raised that this is a bad thing because it's inflating the scores of players who can't time keys but make up for it by having higher keys (untimed) completed.