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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Temna View Post
    Thats more or less how the top end of 14 goes however. You do your 8 weeks of kills to get bis, then either unsub or push for the best times. Not much else to do at that point.
    ?

    There is a massive amount of things to do. You're talking solely about the gear treadmill...which yea, that's literally all WoW has.

    FFXIV is more than just gear grinding.

  2. #62
    I think one thing wow could steal is ff14 difficulty slider for repeatable quests. Let people scale up quest mobs to 252 ilv tuning then drop them in a instanced version of the fight.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Temna View Post
    Thats more or less how the top end of 14 goes however. You do your 8 weeks of kills to get bis, then either unsub or push for the best times. Not much else to do at that point.
    Whats wrong with that? In FF14 you can play multiple classes on one character, so any longer than 2 months would be insane otherwise it would take too long to gear your alts.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    Once player is done with LFR he have absolutly no reason to continue playing game. Which also reason why Blizzard gated LFR releases as most people just stop playing right after they beat content.
    Once player is done with M+0 he has absolutely no reason to do M+1. And somehow we see players doing M+20. Yeah? So hypocritical.

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Once player is done with M+0 he has absolutely no reasons to do M+1. And somehow we see players doing M+20. Yeah? So hypocritical.
    Not mythic 0 but LFG. It might shock you but most people play to experience and see content not to endlessly farm pointless gear for no reason. Gear should be tool what allows you to beat content. Not something what you getjust too ser your numbes get bigger so you can do same content all over again but this time with bigger numbers.
    Last edited by Elias1337; 2021-08-25 at 06:09 AM.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    Not mythic 0 but LFG. It might shock you but most people play to experience and ser content not to endlessly farm pountless gear for no reason.
    And what is difference? They're all just different difficulties of the same content. But ok. Your argument becomes worse and worse. Once player is done with normal 5ppl in LFG, he has absolutely no reason to do Heroic, Mythic, Mythic+. And somehow we see players doing M+20. The biggest misconception about this argument - is that if we would delete all difficulties, except Mythic+, all players would all of a sudden switch to it, instead of just quitting this game. That's why such argument is so elitist and egoistic - it's "Do it hard or you don't deserve playing this game".

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by hydrium View Post
    Amazing how the other top 4 MMOs manage to keep players engaged without using time gates and must do chores yet if WoW did it, it would instantly die.

    Sounds like real shit design to me.
    Becouse other mmo are not easy and acesdible to the point you can faceroll entire expansion in 2 days. FF14 have over 200 hours of playtime just in story questing. Why? Becouse you cant just pull half zone and aoe everything down while watching netflix.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    And what is difference? They're all just different difficulties of the same content. But ok. Your argument becomes worse and worse. Once player is done with normal 5ppl in LFG, he has absolutely no reason to do Heroic, Mythic, Mythic+. And somehow we see players doing M+20. The biggest misconception about this argument - is that if we would delete all difficulties, except Mythic+, all players would all of a sudden switch to it, instead of just quitting this game. That's why such argument is so elitist and egoistic - it's "Do it hard or you don't deserve playing this game".
    No they dont. Participation in raids above lfr is less than 10% in 9.1. And thats with boosting. Participation in high end content is at its lowest point since we can track. Players do not care about difficulty levels. There should be just 1 difficulty and thats mythic raid. So people dont get to see content in single day. So they have desire to stick around and play longer which increases playtime which means Blizzard doesnt have to gate and put grindy systems into the game in order to compensate for low playtime on baseline difficulty.

    Its total myth that players quit if game is too hard or unacessible. They do in fact stick around becouse desire to see content is what keeps them playing. Yeah i dont get to experience every single boss but what if? That "What If?" is what retains players. Difficulty levels dorsnt work.in mmos. Specialy not when you have 4 of them.
    Last edited by Elias1337; 2021-08-25 at 08:00 AM.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    Becouse other mmo are not easy and acesdible to the point you can faceroll entire expansion in 2 days. FF14 have over 200 hours of playtime just in story questing. Why? Becouse you cant just pull half zone and aoe everything down while watching netflix.
    No it's because ffxiv has roughly 190 hours of cinematics because it's built as a final fantasy first, mmo second. The main world of ffxiv is as easy to kill as wow open world is. Dungeons is basically tank grabs everything until standing next to boss room.

    Raids unless you're doing it on highest difficulty (so another piece of accessability) has this thing called the echo which increases your stats after every wipe much like lfr.

  9. #69
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    Its total myth that players quit if game is too hard or unacessible. They do in fact stick around becouse desire to see content is what keeps them playing.
    The first six months of Cataclysm was just some accident then? Blizzard said they made heroics too difficult for random dungeon groups and that their initial design for difficulty was a problem.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    No they dont. Participation in raids above lfr is less than 10% in 9.1. And thats with boosting. Participation in high end content is at its lowest point since we can track. Players do not care about difficulty levels. There should ve just 2 difficulty and thats mythic raid. So people do t get to ser content in single day. So they have desire to stick around and play longer which increases playtime which means Blizzard doesnt have to gate and put grindy systems into the game in order to compensate for low playtime on baseline difficulty.

    Its total myth that players quit if game is too hard or unacessible. They do in fact stick around becouse desire to see content is what keeps them playing. Yeah i dont get to experience every single boss but what if? That "What If?" is what retains players. Difficulty levels dorsnt work.in mmos. Specialy not when you have 4 of them.
    Yeah, this topic is as old, as Cataclysm is, so there is close to 0 reason to discuss it. Raid participation has always been around 10% with only 1% doing hardmodes. Problem is - raids aren't worth spending resources on them, if they're not used by 90% of playerbase. WotLK clearly shown, that making raids more accessible = big sub numbers boost.

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Yeah, this topic is as old, as Cataclysm is, so there is close to 0 reason to discuss it. Raid participation has always been around 10% with only 1% doing hardmodes. Problem is - raids aren't worth spending resources on them, if they're not used by 90% of playerbase. WotLK clearly shown, that making raids more accessible = big sub numbers boost.
    No. Raid participation was way higher pre LFR then it is now. Content what keeps players interest in playing game despite them not beating it are totaly worth of resources. But w/e keep yourself in this myth that LFR somehow makes peole play more and enyoj game more when in reality it made players bored and makes them quit faster.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    The first six months of Cataclysm was just some accident then? Blizzard said they made heroics too difficult for random dungeon groups and that their initial design for difficulty was a problem.
    Problem were not difficult heroic dungeons. Problem was LFG. They were difficult only for random groups made by this automatic systems. For organized froups and guilds those dungeons were absolutly amazing. So its LFG what shouldnt exist in first place so players would play in organized groups where heroics wouldnt be sh** show.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Fabled View Post
    I know I'm not who you replied to, but, I kinda wish we could get pieces we got in Classic as transmog in Retail, but I get why they wouldn't do that.
    if i could get corrupted ashbringer and "sent" it to retail i would put some time into classic
    i had it LOONG ago, in different time, on different account i no longer have, and im so pissed i cant get it anymore

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    if i could get corrupted ashbringer and "sent" it to retail i would put some time into classic
    i had it LOONG ago, in different time, on different account i no longer have, and im so pissed i cant get it anymore
    That's another one I wouldn't mind having. I never bothered to get around to running Naxx when I could farm it.
    "May the way of the Hero lead to the Triforce"

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    "Hero", is what they've all been saying. This world, it isn't worth the saving."

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Yeah, this topic is as old, as Cataclysm is, so there is close to 0 reason to discuss it. Raid participation has always been around 10% with only 1% doing hardmodes. Problem is - raids aren't worth spending resources on them, if they're not used by 90% of playerbase. WotLK clearly shown, that making raids more accessible = big sub numbers boost.
    While I think WotLk was more about the actual premise of the expansion that got many people invested (as the expansion was essentially the sequel/resolution to WC3 in many ways), I think accessibility to raids is a huge issue to consider.

    I feel that we're at the point where we do have too many difficulties for raid, causing issues when it comes to balancing in various aspects of the game (time spent on development of said raids, power creep, etc.). An additional issue is that raid content has become progressively harder and harder over time, as admitted even by Blizz. One of the big reasons is that raid content is made with the assumption of bossmod addons, which means you have to tune up fights to the Nth degree to attempt to maintain some level of difficulty. As such, this makes designing raids more difficult, and in the process it seems the 'fun' aspect gets lost. Accessibility to raids in such an environment naturally becomes increasingly harder, especially when you get to Mythic raiding in terms of tuning, roster/raid management, and so forth. Ironically enough, the start of this trend was in WotLK, however I feel that expansion was way more experimental with their raid structure.

    Honestly, I wouldn't mind a return to Normal/Heroic as the only raid difficulties, with the caveat that you have some boss fights have hard modes a la Ulduar that could bump up the difficulty to current Mythic raiding level with vanity rewards (or maybe more drops, but not increasing ilvl). You could even make them flex, as I feel Blizz should start trending towards not tightly tuning fights so much. While some people may like bleeding-edge insanely difficulty raid fights (admittedly I'm one of them), that is raid content the vast majority of players do not want nor will ever do. However, it's very clear that the content Blizz keeps putting out is less and less polished, which makes any content intended to be tightly tuned can end up being a nightmare. Loosening up the tuning for the most part while maximizing the accessibility and minimizing the work you need to do in order would make most people happy while allowing Blizz to focus on making the content enjoyable and giving more time for polishing.

    If anything, that's the big problem with the game: the design philosophy, the tuning, the systems, everything is just way too rigid.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  15. #75

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    While I think WotLk was more about the actual premise of the expansion that got many people invested (as the expansion was essentially the sequel/resolution to WC3 in many ways), I think accessibility to raids is a huge issue to consider.

    I feel that we're at the point where we do have too many difficulties for raid, causing issues when it comes to balancing in various aspects of the game (time spent on development of said raids, power creep, etc.). An additional issue is that raid content has become progressively harder and harder over time, as admitted even by Blizz. One of the big reasons is that raid content is made with the assumption of bossmod addons, which means you have to tune up fights to the Nth degree to attempt to maintain some level of difficulty. As such, this makes designing raids more difficult, and in the process it seems the 'fun' aspect gets lost. Accessibility to raids in such an environment naturally becomes increasingly harder, especially when you get to Mythic raiding in terms of tuning, roster/raid management, and so forth. Ironically enough, the start of this trend was in WotLK, however I feel that expansion was way more experimental with their raid structure.

    Honestly, I wouldn't mind a return to Normal/Heroic as the only raid difficulties, with the caveat that you have some boss fights have hard modes a la Ulduar that could bump up the difficulty to current Mythic raiding level with vanity rewards (or maybe more drops, but not increasing ilvl). You could even make them flex, as I feel Blizz should start trending towards not tightly tuning fights so much. While some people may like bleeding-edge insanely difficulty raid fights (admittedly I'm one of them), that is raid content the vast majority of players do not want nor will ever do. However, it's very clear that the content Blizz keeps putting out is less and less polished, which makes any content intended to be tightly tuned can end up being a nightmare. Loosening up the tuning for the most part while maximizing the accessibility and minimizing the work you need to do in order would make most people happy while allowing Blizz to focus on making the content enjoyable and giving more time for polishing.

    If anything, that's the big problem with the game: the design philosophy, the tuning, the systems, everything is just way too rigid.
    I think it's a catch 22. Mythic raiders are the population of the playerbase that evolves their skills at the most rapid pace and the only thing wow is really known for anymore is their dungeons and raids. If you trim that down to only heroic... well I think that would rip away the top end of the player base and they would jump ship to FF14.

    That would be utterly devastating for blizzard financial. They would lose their most valued community of invested players ones that regularly feed into the cash shop by buying transfers and supplying runs for boosts that in turn fund the wow token.

    Blizzard might not respect mythic raiders time but they are the back bone of their profits. I don't think they would dare even at hinting of harming mythic raiding just adding grinds to it.

  17. #77
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    Its total myth that players quit if game is too hard or unacessible. They do in fact stick around becouse desire to see content is what keeps them playing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    Problem were not difficult heroic dungeons. Problem was LFG. They were difficult only for random groups made by this automatic systems. For organized froups and guilds those dungeons were absolutly amazing. So its LFG what shouldnt exist in first place so players would play in organized groups where heroics wouldnt be sh** show.
    This is why I rarely argue with people about this. First "It's a total myth that players quit if game is too hard or unaccessible." Then it's "Problem was LFG. They were difficult only for random groups, yada, yada, yada."

    Fine. Still, people quit because the game was too difficult for the normal way they played in Wrath. They did not in fact stick around because their desire to see the content was enough to keep them playing. THEY. QUIT.

    I kind of loathe goal post moving but at least you proved your original point wrong. So there's that.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    This is why I rarely argue with people about this. First "It's a total myth that players quit if game is too hard or unaccessible." Then it's "Problem was LFG. They were difficult only for random groups, yada, yada, yada."

    Fine. Still, people quit because the game was too difficult for the normal way they played in Wrath. They did not in fact stick around because their desire to see the content was enough to keep them playing. THEY. QUIT.

    I kind of loathe goal post moving but at least you proved your original point wrong. So there's that.
    I think it comes down to trying to argue majorities and even blizzard has shown they are uncertain what it is the " average " player wants.

    I think a lot of players are driven by ego to an extent and if they can't demolish content instantly they quit. It's why I personally think lfr and dungeons were so heavily nerfed once they started to become difficult.

    I think blizzards big problem was mostly caused by them being the only show in town. While they had competitors they always had a better product then them. It's only recently that mechanical systems in the game have gotten so out of control that players are rebelling on mass to join different games.

    I think blizzard just need to pick a audience and commit to it. If they want to be a Korean grind mmo fine but don't expect people to jump through hoops who want to do difficult content. If they want to be an action mmo focused on content don't expect an once of tolerance for grinds or dumb ideas like the covenants.

    They can't have their cake and eat it to.

  19. #79
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empower View Post
    I think blizzard just need to pick a audience and commit to it. If they want to be a Korean grind mmo fine but don't expect people to jump through hoops who want to do difficult content. If they want to be an action mmo focused on content don't expect an once of tolerance for grinds or dumb ideas like the covenants.
    You and I exchanged posts on this earlier so I won't go through it again but I don't think they need to pick an audience as such. I think that within an expansion they need to clarify how players on different paths can be kept satisfied and then support the idea that not everyone wants or needs to be on all paths. Dungeons/Raids can have their own progression ecosystem as can PVP and players who never set a foot in either an M+ dungeon or organized raid. There is a way. It is not the historical or current Blizzard way.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    You and I exchanged posts on this earlier so I won't go through it again but I don't think they need to pick an audience as such. I think that within an expansion they need to clarify how players on different paths can be kept satisfied and then support the idea that not everyone wants or needs to be on all paths. Dungeons/Raids can have their own progression ecosystem as can PVP and players who never set a foot in either an M+ dungeon or organized raid. There is a way. It is not the historical or current Blizzard way.
    I don't think there is myself. Don't get me wrong everyone being happy would be ideal. I just think that a game focused on one audience will always serve that audience better. I don't fault them for trying I just honestly can't see how it could be done. It's like merging rts and first person shooting into the same game. Its doable and it has been done but it will never be remember as an amazing shooter or an amazing rts.

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