Class Skins would add many new classes and be a major draw for a new expansion

[username993720]

Warrior -> Gladiator
Paladin -> Spellbreaker
Death Knight -> Mawsworn
Hunter -> Dark Ranger
Shaman -> Dragonsworn
Rogue -> Ninja
Monk -> Lorewalker
Druid -> Druid of the Flame
Demon Hunter -> Warden
Mage -> Blood Mage
Warlock -> Necromancer
Priest -> Cultist

Building on this idea, class skins can help to loosen the race/class restrictions. For example, Void Elves could be Paladins, but only if they use the Spellbreaker skin. Night Elves and Blood Elves could be Shamans, but only as the Dragonsworn skin. Along with this, race specific class skins could be added, allowing for more specific class fantasy. For example, Orc Warriors could be Blademasters or Night Elf Demon Hunters could be Night Warriors or Kul'Tiran Priests could be Tidesages.

Along with this whole system, I'd also advocate that one final class be added: the Tinker. This class is the most requested one I've seen and I think people would rejoice at its introduction. And with the class skin system, I'd add that Bard be a generic skin for Tinker and Apothecary as a race specific Tinker skin for Undead.

Gladiator would better serve as a 4th Warrior spec.
Dark Ranger would better serve as a new class (along with other archetypes, not alone).
Dragonsworn aren't Shamans. They are closest to a Druid.
Subtlety is already a Ninja.
Demon Hunters and Wardens are two different things.
Void elves and Paladins kinda contradict one another. The only reason they can be Priests is because of the Shadow spec (so, gameplay permits you to be a holy spec). Spellbreakers aren't Paladins, but more like Warriors. Paladins would be Blood Knights. There exists one Blood elf Shaman in game. And, since astrology refers to Shamanism (as in the case of Shadowmoon Orcs) i can see it being applied to Night elves. No connection to Dragonsworn, whatsoever. Orc Warriors would better serve as Grunts and Raiders. Blademaster deserves its own class (since the Warrior does not fulfill the fantasy of a Samurai). Night Warriors are not Demon Hunters, despite the use of glaives (which is a common weapon in night elven society). It would be easier for Tidesages to be Shamans, but i get your point.
What the... what do Bards and apothecaries have to do with Tinkers? apothecaries could be an undead skin for the Alchemist, which could potentially be a Tinker spec. The Bard, however, is unrelated at all.

You could argue the same about Allied Races. Does it make it exciting? Does it make the game better?

And if someone, anyone thinks it exciting, does that mean we rather not have Allied Races at all?

That's the thing about Allied races. They were subraces at the end of the day (except for Vulpera).

So, introduce "sub-classes" with class skins (I.E - class/race combination classes).

Since it works pretty darn well, I'd say it's a good one, yeah.

How so?

The idea that Druid could be a base for a Tinker/Artificer class skin is not new. Guardian spec is literally just the Tank mode, Restoration would be Alchemist. Moonfire and Sunfire and Starfire? Just different types of ammo. Teleport? Wormhole.

So, you can apply every class skin to the Druid just because it fills all roles?

It's easy. The whole piloting a mech thing is mechanically the same as just transforming into another being and using their skillset. Hence it would make sense to mofify the basic druid kit with a few different forms (per race) to resemble different mechs. The rest is mostly in the diversity of the class. You can have a melee spec, a tank spec, a ranged spec and a healer spec. Stuff like disposable minions (treants) work well as "bots", roots could be a trap launcher (single and aoe), largescale AoE works as bombardments, eclispe could be turned into polarity system etc. If you ignore the lore and such for a moment and just look at the mechanics it's fairly obvious how you could, with a few word and cosmetic changes, turn a druid into a tinkler.

Giving those changes to druids as an option is obviously not going to work in any way, but there are more than one way to do class skins. Having a warlock pick up necromancer is also not ideal, since warlocks have nothing to do with necromancy as such. The idea here is more along the lines of having a new class that requires the same tuning as existing ones, but comes with the visual feeling of something new.

This is just forced. Just because you can imagine it, doesn't make it any good. Oh, the Druid fills the roles a Tinker would? let's just strap on a coat of paint and call it a Tinker! transformation and 1 pet ability reminds me of Tinkers? for all measures, it can be called a Tinker!

This is hella stupid. The differences between Druids and Tinkers are like night and day. Go look at its (and the Alchemist's) abilities and tell me if they are still the same.

Sure. All a class really is is a combination of art + animation + mechanics. Class skins lets you piggyback the mechanics and just replace the art and animation. There's no reason that you couldn't replace the art and animation of a Druid with Tinker themed ones and easily have a class that fills the Tinker theme and identity. It's a simple way of adding a new 'class' without all of the headaches that go into balancing it.

Do Druid mechanics fit perfectly with those of a Tinker? i highly doubt it.

What I think it's interesting about Class Skins, is that some of them could work for entire classes, others just for certain specs. Major Fantasy divergences that deeply alter the core fantasy of the class, such as let's say "Void Knights", "Tinkers" and "Necromancers, would require all specs of Paladin, Druid, and Warlock to be reskined. Smaller fantasy divergences like "Dark Ranger", "Blood Mage" and "Spellbreaker", would more so be "Spec Skins" for MM Hunter, Destruction Warlock and Protection Paladin for example.

How about Tinker being their own thing, instead of arbitrarily applied to an existing class? Void Knights don't even exist in lore. And changing the Paladin to fit them would go against it's whole premise.

Dark Rangers are more like their own thing, believe it or not, rather than a shadowy hunter. I would argue that Blood Mages are now more akin to Fire Mages than Destruction Warlocks, and Spellbreakers are the Blood elven Warrior archetype, with the Paladin being a Blood Knight.
So, you guys go have a lore check before you spew things randomly into a thread.

So the claw pack would have to be the Cat Form, Robo-Goblin the Bear Form, etc. Is about making a fantasy fit a Class Archetype. Alternatively, if you think turrets are most intrinsic to Tinkers, then Shaman could be the base, with totems being the turrets -as it already is with goblin shamans- and elementals/ascendence as helper construct robots.

How about, instead of trying to force the Tinker into existing classes, you realize it's its own thing?
The square doesn't fit perfectly within the rectangle? Let's just push it into the circle!

You literally bring the issue with the Blood Mages. They DO exist between Warlock and Mage, so okay, which class should they be then?

Fire Mages.

Spellbreakers have an entirely different concept from Paladins, as they simply do not use light, is just the mechanics that match most.

Blood elven Warriors. The Paladins are Blood Knights.

Same for Necromancers, they have nothing to do with the demonology and fel usage and fire of warlocks, but being casters that can control minions is a close mechanical fit to their fantasy.

Yet, they do fit the Death theme of affliction.

Again that's the point, Class Skins are about making an unused fantasy fit an already existing class, but it has its drawbacks. The thing here is that Tinker is simply no more special or unique than other classes that get thrown on the idea of Class Skins.

It is, actually. Because we don't have technology-based class, aside from the Hunter which is very light on that aspect.

I do believe that Tinkers could be a very interesting Class, but when we talk about new classes we HAVE to consider all the development issues and game balancing that entails, as well as the necessity of a context that would make Tinkers thematic of the expansion that would introduce them. And right now, the only way I can see Tinkers being relevant on an expansion wide thematic level is if they get bundled with Artificers and we are looking at a more cosmic based/spaceship travel expansion.

With how much of a hassle balancing is, a new Class HAS to be relevant to the expansion itself to be worth it, this has been true for all 3 classes added post Vanilla.

There's Kezan, not introduced yet into the game.

With Dragonsworn you need a Tank spec. Necromancer a healer spec, and Tinker minions. In theory some of these can work as reworks and 4th specs (looking at Necro since it’s closest to Unholy Death Knight minus melee spells), but you’d still need decent reworks like in Legion.

Dragonsworn hasn't left the RPG sources yet.
Necromancers' healing spec? sounds unlikely (despite how much people want Blood to heal others).

others are solely about taking the closest gameplay and completely reskining it.

Key word here is "closest".

It doesn't quite fit, but it's a close one? who cares, let's just force it into the class' gameplay to fit our vision.

Tinker wouldn't be as different as other options such as Necromancer and Void Knight.

Yes, it would.
Void Knight is a made up class and Necromancer has already been integrated into the Death Knight. Meanwhile, the Tinker is an original class with no representation other than the Engineering profession which cannot really represent it adequately.

Class skins aren't new classes. It's as it says it is, skins... That's like saying mobas, like dots, lol and even hots have new classes /heroes when a new skin releases. It's still the same hero and class from a gameplay perspective...

If you want a new class, skins won't do...

Finally. Someone with some sense.
You want a Sunwalker? class skin.
A Tinker? new class.
These are two different things.
Tinker is not a derivative of a Druid. Sunwalker is of a Paladin. Hence, why a class skin would fit it.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Still waiting for Sunwalker to get custom fire themed spells. Sunwalkers are not Light worshipping Paladins! They are only "paladins" as a game mechanic, not in lore (because Blizzard wasn't going to make up a new class only one race can play). Sunwalkers are closer to Druids, except they worship the sun not the moon.

[Gaidax]

For the amount of effort, the return would be questionable.

People need content, something to actually do with their classes to begin with. Nobody will give a fuck about being able to turn your Demons into Skeletons and call it a Necromancer "skin" if all you do with it is fucking Korthia and some WQs.

It's like that other game, it did not even bother with talents, it simply just put a shitton of various content for players to do and that's all it needed.

[Teriz]

I did answer. No, a Tinker is not a Druid in the same way a Necromancer is not a Warlock. The whole point is to use the gameplay of one class to represent another fantasy. That's the whole issue as I presented it, yes, some would kinda work as "Spec Skins" because they could be fantasies that can be made to fit another class, but others are solely about taking the closest gameplay and completely reskining it.

Actually Warlocks are Necromancers at the base level. Affliction and Demonology are full of Necromancer spells like Drain Life, Life Tap, Haunt, Soulstone, etc. In fact, if you simply change the Warlock's minions from Demonic to Undead and do nothing else, Affliction and Demo wouldn't look anything different from a stereotypical Necromancer.

You really can't say the same with Druids and Tinkers.

As I said, you change every spell to fit the same theme. Bristling Fur is just a rage increase CD, you can literally give that any name, like "Overcharge". It's literally just about changing the name and icon to fit a theme. "Overcharge: Overcharge your capacitors, causing you to generate Rage based on damage taken for 8 sec."

It's all about just changing the cosmetics of the abilities, which would all remain the same in mechanic terms. Entirely cosmetic. It's the same druid class, the only thing that would change is Spell Name, Description and Animation. That's the whole point of a Class Skin.

Except it's not just cosmetic. New animations require new hit boxes which in turn require new mechanics. It isn't the same as simply changing the color of the spell, you're essentially creating a new ability. Not a problem if its one or two things, but if you're doing this across the board in every spec, you're essentially building a new class.

But again, the altering is completelly cosmetic. Spell Name, Description and Animation That's it, not at all that different from HotS, the difference is just the scope, like how some skins were Rares and other Legendaries, with legendaries completely reworking the animations and concept, but the effects are entirely the same. That's the whole point of a class, a completely new gameplay experience. Class Skins are literally ONLY cosmetic.

See above.

And again, that's simply the limitation of Class Skins as a concept, some things will simply not translate. But if Survival went from ranged to melee, The claw pack could also be made mele to work with feral, and the Balance spec could be reskined to be about distance bomb throwing/electricity. Again, the point is to give Druid abilities a Tinker thematic.

Survival going to melee wasn't a class skin, it was a specialization overhaul. It required a complete rebalancing of the spec with new abilities, new animations, new passives, and new talents. If you're arguing that this is what would be required for the Druid to become a Tinker, then yes you are in fact arguing for a new class.

Take "Bomb throwing" with the Balance spec. Tinkers don't throw bombs, they launch them via their claw pack. Again that would require a complete animation overhaul of Balance since the Moonkin is a caster shooting spells, not parabola projectiles with timers. Also Feral's melee is based around an agile cat, not a lumbering backpack with mechanical arms or a mech. Are you going to make something like this;



Fight like a cat that scratches and bites it's foes? Well no, those types of melee attacks don't work with the visual concept, so again we're looking at a complete animation overhaul.

You're also completely ignoring the fact that the Claw Pack is an intermediary form between the Tinker and the mech. A Tinker class would be able to have the Goblin or Gnome have a device on their back that could deploy into the claw pack, which could then transform into a mech. That would require mechanics not currently existent within the Druid class.

So you say then both Warlocks and mages should get a Blood Mage skin? That's just inneficient, the opposite of the point of Class Skins.

No, the relevant Blood Mage abilities went to the Mage class, and the Mage's fire spec is largely based on the Blood Mage from WC3.

And what else about the Spellbreaker fantasy fits Mages? I feel you are missing the point of Class Skins at this point, which is to reskin a class abilities to resemble another fantasy.

Actually the ability set of the Spellbreaker (Control Magic, Spellsteal) fits just fine in the Mage class.

See that's the thing about your bias here, because in what part do Necromancers have life manipulating abilities?

Life Tap, Drain Life, Soulstone, Healthstone, Siphon Life, Dark Pact, Phantom Singularity, Drain Soul, Soul Leach, Health Funnel, Power Siphon, etc.

They have death controlling abilities. The similarity is that you can frame their curses as poisons and diseases. It's literally the same that framing Driuid shapeshifting as different mechanical forms. Of course there are limitions because you won't be able to have ever raise an undead mob as a Necromancer, and won't be able to set turrets as a Tinker.

Again, if you simply reskin Warlock demons as Undead minions, there would be little to no difference between it and a standard Necromancer. You don't even have to change the names of the abilities, since in some games Imps and Succubi are Undead minions.

You can't say the same with Druid and Tinker, which as shown would require fundamental ability overhauls and name changes.

I think you just don't really get the point of Class Skins and are only seeing this as far as Spec Skins.

I get them just fine. It's simply a reskin of an existing class to give someone a variation of said class. Like making a "Dark Ranger" by adding an undead elf skin to Hunters and applying Shadow animations to some of their shots and maybe replacing one or two of their existing abilities with a few abilities from HotS like they were originally planning to do with Wailing Arrow replacing Kill Shot. Or simply reskinning Warlock demons into Undead minions, like changing the Felguard into an Abomination, or an Imp into a small skeletal mage. Sunwalkers and Dark Shaman could also rather easily be made into class skins since they're variations of Paladins and Shaman.

Again, that's a far cry from redoing and renaming every Druid ability in every spec and adding new races to the class which is what would be required to turn a Druid into a Tinker. In that case you are arguing for a new class to be attached to the Druid class much in the same way Shaman were attached to Paladins in Vanilla. Blizzard moved away from that design a LONG time ago.

[huth]

I swear this is the third time I see the same list of "class skins".. But I can't find one of them, so maybe just misremembering

Possible. We've had a lot of threads on this topic over the years, one might have had a similar list that you mistook for this one. Or this is the third copy of more or less the same thread because somebody can't come up with anything original.

[Teriz]

Class skins aren't new classes. It's as it says it is, skins... That's like saying mobas, like dots, lol and even hots have new classes /heroes when a new skin releases. It's still the same hero and class from a gameplay perspective...

If you want a new class, skins won't do...

Agreed. Class Skins is like Hunters getting a Dark Ranger skin, or Tauren getting a Sunwalker skin for Paladins, or Shaman getting a Dark Shaman skin. You can't use class skins to overhaul entire classes into something entirely different than the existing class, and add races to said classes.

At that point you're actually creating a new class.

[rogueMatthias]

I mean the thing is that if you go for the idea of Class Skins, then Tinker could just be a Class Skin for Druid, with their different mechas being forms.

Much as I hate mechagnomes, Id be game if they added a druid Transformer mechagnome, that can turn into a mini jet or a tank.

(Hopefully if they're adding new options to allied races we'll get some full robot options for them too)

- - - Updated - - -

Everyone wanting dark rangers for Hunters. For me I'd prefer if they added new animations so that Hunters can be Axe-Throwers instead if they want.

[8bithamster]

Are the tinker idiots out again? They are almost like Trump supporters.. blindly believing that someday their fairytale will come true if they keep repeating/shouting it over and over.

[Teriz]

Are the tinker idiots out again? They are almost like Trump supporters.. blindly believing that someday their fairytale will come true if they keep repeating/shouting it over and over.

You’re going to get the Tinker brought up in any future/new class discussion because the Tinker is the front runner for implementation. Also it’s rather hard to call it a “fairytale” when the concept has the same pedigree and history as previous expansion class inclusions.

[Thundering]

I think they should fix the classes first so they dont need borrowed power.-_-

[8bithamster]

You’re going to get the Tinker brought up in any future/new class discussion because the Tinker is the front runner for implementation. Also it’s rather hard to call it a “fairytale” when the concept has the same pedigree and history as previous expansion class inclusions.

yea.. and people say the same about:

Bards
Spell wardens/knights/whatevers
etc
etc
etc

You're not special.

[Teriz]

yea.. and people say the same about:

Bards
Spell wardens/knights/whatevers
etc
etc
etc

You're not special.

Incorrect. Tinker has the same pedigree as Death Knights, Monks, and Demon Hunters.

Your other examples do not.

[jellmoo]

Do Druid mechanics fit perfectly with those of a Tinker? i highly doubt it.

Sure it does. What do we need to make a Tinker?

A Mech mode for tanking? Reskin Bear Form.
A Claw pack for melee Dps? Reskin Cat Form.
Pocket Factory to make clockwork Goblins? Reskin Force of Nature.
Cluster Rockets? Reskin any number of Balance spells for the job.

That covers every ability from WC3. Then you can make as many other changes as you like to flesh out the theme. Turn Balance spells into a variety of gun, rocket and laser attacks. Reskin Resto spells to be alchemist like (use potions and spray guns). Make it as fun or as silly as you want. Travel form adds rocket skates. Add a stealth field generator effect for stealthing. The sky is the limit.

There's zero reason that it doesn't work other than "I don't like it", which is not exactly a terribly compelling reason.

[threads]

i'd rather have a new class than class skins. as long as it's not tinkers.

[username993720]

Sure it does. What do we need to make a Tinker?

A Mech mode for tanking? Reskin Bear Form.
A Claw pack for melee Dps? Reskin Cat Form.
Pocket Factory to make clockwork Goblins? Reskin Force of Nature.
Cluster Rockets? Reskin any number of Balance spells for the job.

That covers every ability from WC3. Then you can make as many other changes as you like to flesh out the theme. Turn Balance spells into a variety of gun, rocket and laser attacks. Reskin Resto spells to be alchemist like (use potions and spray guns). Make it as fun or as silly as you want. Travel form adds rocket skates. Add a stealth field generator effect for stealthing. The sky is the limit.

There's zero reason that it doesn't work other than "I don't like it", which is not exactly a terribly compelling reason.

This is an overgeneralization of the Druid and the Tinker.
Why would Tinkers stealth? Why would they need both melee and ranged DPS specs?
You haven't, exactly, thought this through, because all you can imagine are a few abilities that match your vision in a general way.
Does the Druid account for:
Reduce, Reuse, Recycle resource bar
Rock it! Turret
Deth Lazor
Xplodium Charge
Grav-O-Bomb 3000
Focus Turrets
Electroshock Strikes
Buster Cannon
Heavy Thrusters
Gigavolt Charge
Wormhole Generator
Deploy Spark Bot
World Enlarger
Exploding Sheep
Hyperdrive
Healing Spray
Chemical Rage
Acid Bomb
Transmute
?

It's more than just a simple "oh, look guys! Druids can take on forms! and so do Tinkers! that means they are both the same!"

[Alanar]

Lets not do Tinkers.

[shimerra]

Came here hoping for something interesting but nope another god damn fucking tinker thread.

[Lolites]

Tinker is the front runner for implementation

based on what exactly?
i mean i wouldnt mind tinker being added, but saying they are "front runner" is just wishful thinking

[Deferionus]

I would rather them make a necromancer than waste the potential on it being a reskinned warlock. I already play a warlock. I want to play a necromancer.

[Itori]

Class skins by themselves would be great.

Warrior - Barbarian
Rogue - ninja
Hunter - bard
Paladin - crusader
Druid - warden
Priest - bishop
Warlock - necromancer
Demon hunter - dreadlord
Monk - grand master
Mage - grand magus
Shaman - elemental lord
Death knight - rune knight