Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Dracullus]

Even if they wanted to be 'more careful', I don't think they could actually manage to do so. Ion & co. are too set in their ways, and I don't see what could they do differently in 10.0, if BfA and SL are any precedent.

SL is precedent that "Ion & co." are too set in their ways?

@draugril Yeah that's perfect. SL has very "clean" design.. and it's boring compared to messy Legion launch that had spectacular hits as misses.

[draugril]

Even if they wanted to be 'more careful', I don't think they could actually manage to do so. Ion & co. are too set in their ways, and I don't see what could they do differently in 10.0, if BfA and SL are any precedent.

When you think of the Platonic ideal of what an MMO designed by the guild leader of Elitist Jerks would look like... WoW has very nearly achieved that ideal. There are still holdover features, like pet battles, collections, leveling, world content, and so on, and they're ingrained enough that I don't think they'll go away (I may have said the same thing about archaeology and First Aid not so long ago), but the greater point is that the core philosophy of what WoW prioritizes is evident. Competitive, difficult PvE content.

I have a hard time believing we'll ever see any significant features that veer away from that core.

[Nagawithlegs]

SL is precedent that "Ion & co." are too set in their ways?

@draugril Yeah that's perfect. SL has very "clean" design.. and it's boring compared to messy Legion launch that had spectacular hits as misses.

SL is very “conservative” in its design, no huge new features. Part of the reason I believe it was designed as sort of filler before a big messy expansion like 10.0.

Even small stuff like no archaeology just points to more archaeology work being done for the next expansion... which makes sense if it’s Azeroth and they need to do tons of new artifacts.

[Edward Wu]

SL is very “conservative” in its design, no huge new features. Part of the reason I believe it was designed as sort of filler before a big messy expansion like 10.0.

Even small stuff like no archaeology just points to more archaeology work being done for the next expansion... which makes sense if it’s Azeroth and they need to do tons of new artifacts.

No huge new features? We just got a Roguelike mode that's completely new in terms of design compared to anything else they've tried.

[Hyrja]

I came across this clip from Towelliee where he talked about 9.1.5 today, its gonna have alot of positive changes acording to him.
https://clips.twitch.tv/SucculentImp...XaD1s6R8KuL1Mr

[Nagawithlegs]

No huge new features? We just got a Roguelike mode that's completely new in terms of design compared to anything else they've tried.

It’s not completely new because they said they used island tech for certain randomized elements. Yes it’s a new feature for WoW but compare that to BFA that had two attempts at a new gamemode (both failed) and Legion which introduced an evergreen M+ system and had a meaty artifact system.

It’s smaller than them to the point that people were upset at reveal that Torghast was the only new gamemode and started saying it was maintenance mode already. No, just a smaller expansion, but people have higher expectations for WoW now.

I believe the devs are doing something similar to WoD - Legion but not canceling the expansion to make the next one better... just making a small expansion so they have more time to work on the next one.

[draugril]

No huge new features? We just got a Roguelike mode that's completely new in terms of design compared to anything else they've tried.

Then they immediately neutered it because they tied it into the loot treadmill in order to make it semi-tolerable for everyone engaging in any endgame activity.

Just like they neutered island expeditions and warfronts and arguably visions. The design is so soft and safe that it doesn't appeal to people that actually enjoy the roguelike experience while simultaneously being an arduous timesink for people that would never engage with the system otherwise but are obligated to because of how the game is structured.

[Nagawithlegs]

I came across this clip from Towelliee where he talked about 9.1.5 today, its gonna have alot of positive changes acording to him.
https://clips.twitch.tv/SucculentImp...XaD1s6R8KuL1Mr

Wonder when they’re going to drop an announcement. They’ve been weirdly quiet.

[Tyrien]

Wonder when they’re going to drop an announcement. They’ve been weirdly quiet.

Annoyingly quiet. Especially during Gamescom week. Remember it was Gamescom where they announced Legion afterall.

[Nagawithlegs]

Annoyingly quiet. Especially during Gamescom week. Remember it was Gamescom where they announced Legion afterall.

Considering they haven’t said anything since the art update, I wouldn’t be surprised if they aren’t allowed to reveal the patch when the lawsuit is in the news this week.

[Kiivar86]

Even small stuff like no archaeology just points to more archaeology work being done for the next expansion... which makes sense if it’s Azeroth and they need to do tons of new artifacts.

Heh, you have a lot more faith for Archaeology than I do. They barely do anything for it at this point (well I mean, they did nothing for Shadowlands, of course, but I mean prior to that). Legion they at least tried something, even if it didn't work out that well, but then BfA...honestly, I forgot it even had archaeology. Looking at it, two pets, two trinkets, two toys and that's it.

Could've done something for Nazjatar, at least.

[Sondrelk]

I came across this clip from Towelliee where he talked about 9.1.5 today, its gonna have alot of positive changes acording to him.
https://clips.twitch.tv/SucculentImp...XaD1s6R8KuL1Mr

Why do people still believe that guy is in the know more than the next streamer?

He might have been told something once or twice way back, but since then his predictions have either been obvious or flat out wrong.

You cannot claim to be a prophet if your predictions are all so vague as to be pointless.
Claiming 9.1.5 will have more positive changes means absolutely nothing. Pretty much any need or addition would be a positive change.

[Le Conceptuel]

Counterpoint: A lot of industry insiders will use a generic term for those within their industry when speaking to an external audience. The mining industry, for example, might have Surface Miners, Underground Captains, Process Plant Operators and Mobile Maintenance Welders. Any one of these might be referred to as a "Miner" to external parties while only two of them are directly involved in by definition mining tasks, and only one actually has "Miner" in their title. The analogous term for the video game development industry is "developer." I've seen artists and QA and even community managers referred to as "developers" because that is simply shorthand for "has a position in the video game development industry." This isn't much of a smoking gun.

That being said, there are reasons to dismiss it. Firstly, the lack of a new class, I personally find hard to believe, but that might be my own personal bias creeping in. Secondly, the existence of a housing system at all. I do not believe that Blizzard sees players philosophically as homesteaders. We're Luke Skywalker, not Owen Lars. I fully believe that housing will never be a feature of WoW because of this. Lastly, and perhaps most obviously, it is the willingness to post at all. No one in a coveted video game development job is going to roll the dice on getting blacklisted for violating an NDA. Period. Full stop.

To be fair on the point of there being no new class, keep in mind that we already have twelve which are already difficult to balance properly. Although it would be a useful selling point for 10.0, there would surely be other things they could do to draw people in for such a milestone. Shadowlands does muddy the waters a bit, as it features the first time a second expansion has not had a new class added, so this alteration could mean a few different things; either Blizzard couldn't associate a new class with Shadowlands, they realized a new class would be a bad idea, or they wanted to save the new class for 10.0. The last of those only really works within the narrative that Shadowlands was truly meant to be a filler expansion from the very start, so I suppose varying takes on that could emerge. I, however, think this seems like one of the more realistic bits.

I do agree on Player Housing, though. It's a rather rough idea, and Blizzard has tried something in the ballpark before. If they can't make it fit the style they approve of, I don't think they would be willing to do it at all. As for the fantasy matter, it does seem like "murderhobo" is already pretty hammered-in to our characters. Although WoW has changed pretty dramatically, it has always actually kept certain fantasies, themes, and gameplay details consistent, and Player Housing may violate that.

[draugril]

I like him on a personal level, but when he starts in on this insiders stuff it has always struck me as... pathetic, I suppose.

[Edward Wu]

Personally I am all for changes like more customization and solo island expeditions as these all technically increase the quality of the casual experience, but for me what I'm really looking for is an improved endgame experience.

My 2 main issues with the game (I haven't played 9.1 WoW) is that running M+ and the world content portion of the endgame (World Quests, Covenant campaigns, and The Maw) is not enjoyable at all. I personally enjoyed myself raiding in 9.0 and I liked Castle Nathria but I'm hearing people have big issues with SoD and these Domination Sockets system, so that might be another thing they need to look at.

9.1.5 is obviously not going to hold a lot of content in it at all, so if they want to bring people back and "compete" with Endwalker or whatever, it needs heavy systems changes and a new design philosophy for Shadowlands brought with it.

Here's hoping.

[draugril]

To be fair on the point of there being no new class, keep in mind that we already have twelve which are already difficult to balance properly. Although it would be a useful selling point for 10.0, there would surely be other things they could do to draw people in for such a milestone. Shadowlands does muddy the waters a bit, as it features the first time a second expansion has not had a new class added, so this alteration could mean a few different things; either Blizzard couldn't associate a new class with Shadowlands, they realized a new class would be a bad idea, or they wanted to save the new class for 10.0. The last of those only really works within the narrative that Shadowlands was truly meant to be a filler expansion from the very start, so I suppose varying takes on that could emerge. I, however, think this seems like one of the more realistic bits.

I do agree on Player Housing, though. It's a rather rough idea, and Blizzard has tried something in the ballpark before. If they can't make it fit the style they approve of, I don't think they would be willing to do it at all. As for the fantasy matter, it does seem like "murderhobo" is already pretty hammered-in to our characters. Although WoW has changed pretty dramatically, it has always actually kept certain fantasies, themes, and gameplay details consistent, and Player Housing may violate that.

There are certain "hail Mary" ideas that you often seen thrown around: world revamps, narrative time skips, player housing, class skins, and so on. Looking at how Blizzard actually develops the game and looking at the direction the game has taken for the past decade or so... this just isn't the company that is going to try to make that pass to save the game. They just aren't in their wheelhouse.

As so-called "tentpole" features go, though, new classes are entirely within this team's wheelhouse. They are mechanically focused and data driven - a new class allows them to riff on their formula in a way that you can't with raid design and the like. This is the team founded on number-crunching, breaking down the numerical theory of each class. The creation of a new class is something that I can see them doing while acting completely "in character" in a way that most other ideas I see suggested simply do not.

That being said, the system they suggested does seem like the kind of disconnected, missing-the-point implementation that we would get if this numbers-focused team was given the task of designing a system that is completely qualitative. It even makes the requisite mistake of potentially tying it into player power when it has no business doing so.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

It’s not completely new because they said they used island tech for certain randomized elements. Yes it’s a new feature for WoW but compare that to BFA that had two attempts at a new gamemode (both failed) and Legion which introduced an evergreen M+ system and had a meaty artifact system.

It’s smaller than them to the point that people were upset at reveal that Torghast was the only new gamemode and started saying it was maintenance mode already. No, just a smaller expansion, but people have higher expectations for WoW now.

I believe the devs are doing something similar to WoD - Legion but not canceling the expansion to make the next one better... just making a small expansion so they have more time to work on the next one.

Thats well I'm not sure thats the answer but I don't think they should do it, they should stay with the large expansions, if it means each expansion lasts longer...so be it(World events not interfering that is).

[Nyel]

No huge new features? We just got a Roguelike mode that's completely new in terms of design compared to anything else they've tried.

Not really. It’s just a pumped up Island Expeditions. It clearly uses that tech or at least their experience made with it. Unfortunately, they weren’t able to significantly improve the fun factor. For some they made it even worse and that’s why Torghast isn’t received positively by the majority.
_______

I wish I could get aboard the world revamp hypetrain as this is the thing WoW needs the most right now, but I only believe it when I see it. Too often I was hoping for it and got disappointed. Three times not the charm for me, in this case.

By the way, I f* hope they never ever do an expansion again where the zones are disconnected and the new continent is not a seamingless world. This was always something WoW got right, I hate MMORPGs where there are loading screens between zones. And then they did this in Shadowlands - such a massive misfire in my opinion. One thing WoW always had going for it was the open seamingless world.

[Pheraz]

Personally I am all for changes like more customization and solo island expeditions as these all technically increase the quality of the casual experience, but for me what I'm really looking for is an improved endgame experience.

My 2 main issues with the game (I haven't played 9.1 WoW) is that running M+ and the world content portion of the endgame (World Quests, Covenant campaigns, and The Maw) is not enjoyable at all. I personally enjoyed myself raiding in 9.0 and I liked Castle Nathria but I'm hearing people have big issues with SoD and these Domination Sockets system, so that might be another thing they need to look at.

9.1.5 is obviously not going to hold a lot of content in it at all, so if they want to bring people back and "compete" with Endwalker or whatever, it needs heavy systems changes and a new design philosophy for Shadowlands brought with it.

Here's hoping.

World quests are indeed much worse than in previous xpacs. Mainly for two reasons:

1) You need to pick up the emissary quests yourself, which is incredibly annoying, especially as a venthyr
2) you cannot travel through the landmass because it is split as islands and you need to use the gateways

Subjectively speaking, SoD is much more fun than castle nathria though but that didn't make 9.1 a good patch.

I really hope they'll stop those star wars expansions and focus on classic Warcraft themes and local threats like warlords, dragons and so on. Soooooo sick of this overblown epic stuff. It feels like the main story and the "what will come next?!?!" Idea is damaging the game very hard

[Raetary]

PTR next week!