I also think that one of the best parts about FFXIV is easily its story and how it all unfolded. Even Stormblood, which is on the bottom of the list of expansion storytelling for me, kept me entertained just about all the way through.
Opinions on a story are very subjective, though. Someone could say FFXIV has one of the worst stories in video games, and I'd vehemently disagree with them, but it's not really my place to tell them they're wrong or try to convince them otherwise. There's honest, earnest discussion about what you think are your game's good points, and then there's being an asshole. Learn the difference. Don't be an asshole.
That said, I also feel like there's a bit of a difference between acknowledging flaws in a game's storytelling and just outright ruining that storytelling for yourself, by not suspending your disbelief when you're supposed to.
"Why are my party members only here for one dungeon and are never a part of the story again?" feels close to the same tier as "Why do you need exactly five boar asses?" or "Why am I only being told to free six slaves from the mines, when there's at least 60 further in, and more fresh arrivals that I run past by the time I have to leave?"
These are not invalid questions to ask. But you're... not supposed to ask them. They're cursed. They will ruin your immersion if you allow them, yes, but it's mostly your fault for allowing them. And while it's true that some game genres might ask you to suspend your disbelief in less/different ways than others, that fact in itself doesn't really necessitate that other game genres are "better" storytellers. Ultimately, it comes down mostly to the story itself.
I think the problem I've had with it is that it's felt at a couple of points like it has deliberately got in its own way on that front. I'm not that far in yet, I just killed Ifrit, but that was a prime example. I was playing with a friend, then we were forced to disband our party to get ambushed by the Amaljaa, then we had to reform to take on Ifrit, only to be put immediately into a cutscene where I alone resist Ifrit's magic, then I get out of the cutscene into the fight and sure enough there are 4 of us fighting him. It felt like it would have worked better if the game had simply allowed a number of Warriors of Light to be captured canonically, but sure enough I returned to the Scions and was told that I was the special one who had overcome the mighty Ifrit. Some small acknowledgement of the other Warriors of Light would have been so simple and helped with the immersion. Even Blizzard picked up on this recently and explicitly acknowledged the existence of multiple Maw Walkers in a few places.
Hasn't WoW always acknowledged that there were multiple champions waltzing around? The player being the one and only adventurer/champion is the exception, not the norm.
- Vanilla: you're just one of many adventurers. Adventurers took out all of the threats.
- BC: you're just one of many adventurers. Adventurers took out all of the threats.
- Wrath: at this point, you're starting to become one of the elite few that is being called up by Varian/Thrall/Tirion/Brann/whomever to come deal with the threat of the week. You are the champion of your faction. But you are not the only one.
- Cata: you are one of a few legendary adventurers, and one of your faction's greatest champions.
- MoP: same as Cata.
- WoD: this is the only time you are are canonically the only hero. You are the only garrison commander and you're the only player character that is involved on Draenor. The only heroes on Draenor either came through the Dark Portal (and almost all of them are dead by the end of the intro scenario, with just you, Thrall, Khadgar, Maraad, and a handful of others fleeing from Grommash). You built a garrison and called in reinforcements from Azeroth, but you're the only champion running around Draenor.
- Legion: is back to you being one of a handful of elite champions. There is canonically at least one champion of every class (as at least 12 champions/elite adventurers)
- BFA: same as usual.
- Shadowlands: is all over the place with the lore.
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Whereas in FFXIV, the idea of there being multiple player Warriors of Light was an idea that existed in ARR, and then was dropped by the time of HW, at which point you canonically do everything yourself or with the MSQ NPCs who were present (ie you canonically did Bardaam's Mettle with Hien, Gosetsu, Yugiri, and Lyse). There are no other elite player adventurers or WoLs in the story.
Last edited by Val the Moofia Boss; 2021-08-27 at 12:43 PM.
Just so you know FF14 does this too. The DRG AF1 armor, which is iconic and well loved, if put on a female has them show off their tummy. Armor made with spikes to prevent a dragon from eating you or clawing you, has a gaping sexy hole right in a vital organ area, for what possible reason?
That said, who cares lol.
Not the person you quoted and I'm certainly not listing 50 games here, but games I've really enjoyed stories include:
- Xenogears
- FFT/FF9/FF7
- Valkyrie Profile (1 and 2 honestly)
- Bloodborne
- Persona series (specifically 5, 4, and 3, in that order for me)
- Star Ocean Till End of Time
- Mana Khemia series
- Legend of the Dragoon
- Legend of Legaia
- Most Tales of (Really enjoyed the Berseria/Zesteria stories, but Abyss is probably my favorite?)
Those are some of my personal favorites of great storytelling, with Xenogears being at the top. Sometimes it's because of the overall story (Xenogears, FFT, Bloodborne), sometimes it's because of the setting (VP, SOTtEoT, LoD,LoL), and other times it's because the characters (Persona, Tales of, FF9/7).
While I enjoy the story of FF14 and do consider it good, I don't think it compares with my examples above (for me personally).
The Bowl of Embers, as it's presented storywise, was pretty clumsy, at least compared to every other time you'll have to deal with similar set-ups. I don't want to imply at all that I think FFXIV's storytelling is utterly faultless. I also don't want to insinuate that suspending your disbelief is like the panacea of clumsy storytelling, because it's not. This is one of those things where it's more on the side of acknowledging the flaws, rather than needling at something you're not supposed to be needling at.
There are definitely times in the story where the fact that you weren't alone going into or coming out of a dungeon or trial is acknowledged, however. Of course, being the main character/chosen one/messiah is a pedestal you will never come down from. But if it helps at all, while you're definitely 'The Hero', there are other 'heroes' around, as a nod to the other players in the world. That was a sense I remember feeling from the story while I was playing through the early game, and if you haven't felt that yet, hopefully you'll get to the point where it sort of feels that way before long.
Naw dude just sink hundreds of hours into the game until you get to Shadowbringers, trust me, it will be good.
It's like telling somebody to pick up S4 or S5 of a television series because it gets good then, and your opinion doesn't really matter until you get to that part.
I'm sorry but anybody who has sunk dozens of hours into a game still has an opinion on the game, lol. Beating an entire story and not liking it is grounds enough to give a pretty good opinion on it. Besides classes getting a bit more complicated with each new expansion, the core gameplay loops, let alone how the game interacts with the world doesn't really change at all. It's still functionally the same system, and that hasn't changed.
FF14 to me has a really good story, but asking people to list all of their favorite games that usurp it is really silly. Simply put, there are several FF games that SQUARE made that have better overall stories. Does that mean FF14 is bad? No. It just means there are better games out there if you're comparing them from a narrative perspective.
ARR was mostly world building which I can appreciate, but hardly anything happened of note until the very end. Heavensward was pretty solid the entire way through, while Stormblood was bouncing between two storylines which made it really hard to engage with. No offense to those that liked it, but I felt like the majority of the experience was just teleporting to one area, listen to dialogue and then watch characters keyboard turn 90 degrees and walk off.. only to teleport and do the same thing. It is not hard to tell and a massive amount of Stormblood could be told in way less MSQ.
I've put over 400 hours into the game, is that not enough? Trust me just put 500 or 600 hours in, then you'll like it. Do people not realize how many games people could have played with that time budget?
Last edited by Tojara; 2021-08-27 at 04:05 PM.
I sincerely hope after EW that FFXIV does something about ARR. It's disappointing seeing how much that experience is turning people away from the game and I was almost one of them.
I loved Legend of Legaia. I have wished for years that they'd make it into a series, I always thought they were short-sighted killing off all the Seru at the end. They could've at least done some prequels where they still existed.
Suikoden 1 & 2 would be on my list. The original Phantasy Star series (1-4) on console. The Quest for Glory series. FFX is my favorite of all the FF titles.
My #1 game of all time is Okami though. I've purchased it on multiple platforms, bought the soundtrack and the artbook, designed and named my Draenei shaman around the main character, I love it so much.
"We must now recognize that the greatest threat of freedom for us all is if we go back to eating ourselves out from within." - John Anderson
The ideas that a) you should give the game a chance beyond ARR and b) putting in dozens of hours into the game is enough to form an opinion can BOTH be true. People are free to like and dislike the things they want. They may not have a fully formed opinion yet, or they may be biased for it. It doesn't matter because someone else's opinion doesn't take away from yours. Anyways, that's my 2 gil.
I'd have to dig into my entire library of rpg/adventure games I've played since the GBA and N64 days. The number was quickly pulled out of my head. I first typed top 10 but quickly realized that was off, even top 30, so to stay safe I chose with 50 games or so I've played with a better story that FFXIV.
Could be a little more or less but as I said already the story is very shounen like. The way they save some characters from death or how the chosen hero just prevails with sheer willpower and friendship is like some Naruto or Fairytale anime arc.
The wise wolf who's pride is her wisdom isn't so sharp as drunk.
While I agree with your reply in general, this one seemed like an oddball. How many games let you be hurt/killed/taken out of the game in any meaningful manner?
There are those games where that is part of the gameplay loop (and as such do not really influence how you feel about the story), and maybe a few games where the ending/near end of the story uses that.
I mean feel free to admit you can't be bothered to be sucked into a story but let's stop pretending just being a cynical jaded person about everything is the default state.
You can have an opinion about anything, and people can dismiss the opinion when its one based on ignorance. You can proudly declare the world that you know for a fact that the Earth is flat and congratulations you sure have an opinion there buddy. But factually you are just wrong and you don't even understand the topic you're talking about.Yeah, can we not gatekeep opinions?
People are fucking allowed to not like something. You guys constantly coming out of the woodwork to tell them that they're somehow "wrong" about it are being extremely ill-mannered.
Do we have to have this conversation every time a new person stops like 30% way through the game and declares the entire thing bad? Yeah sure your opinion is that you didn't have a good time, congratulations go play another game then. But don't sit there and start making blanket statements about the game if you haven't done even half of anything significant yet -- especially if you haven't even touched the stuff people repeatedly talked about loving the most.
Enjoy believing the Earth is flat, but stop telling people who are responding to those saying it by going, "No, it's not, you're just factually wrong" that they're just big ole meanies who are gatekeeping opinions.
@CalamityHeart nailed it better than I could, and more succinctly, with their post:
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Agreed 100% and people in this thread are missing the point here.
People can have a totally valid experience and say, "Yeah I got to level 40 and it wasn't for me, so I quit." Cool, the game isn't for everyone. I know several people who tried it out and couldn't make it out of ARR and just moved on.
But if you're going to then follow that up by saying, "The story of FFXIV is bad, overrated, and its gameplay is shit" people are going to rightfully call you out on your bullshit because you're now making statements based wholly in ignorance having not played the majority of the content.
Last edited by Drindorai; 2021-08-30 at 04:05 AM.
They actually DID have stuff about this pre heavensward.
Like if you go to the Weavers guild in Ul Dah they'd say hpw they don't buy the idea you did evil crap for a second.
Most Ul dahns know there systems corrupt as fuck so they are looking the other way/not reporting you(and most "guards" are mercenaries that likely know not to f with you). The other cities leaders assume you are innocent given what they know of you and Ul Dahs whole corrupt shadow leaders thing
this topic basically invites people to say what they THINK is good / bad about ff14 right? must everyone like it? must everyone think the story is good? of course not...
and people saying you have to play trough the whole story to have a valid opinion if you like it or not is like saying i should marry someone i went on a date with a few times to truly see if i like them or not. MY ENJOYMENT of ff14 during those month and a half i played it was mediocre, taking in its pros and cons....MY EXPERIENCE was not one of continuous fun and passion and motivation to go further due to the relation of pros and cons I PERCIEVE.
how can anyone try to tell me i should be enjoying something if i am not? and i can onl share my experience here, what i think is good and what i think is bad, and its has the same validity as your totally positive one. its all just personal experiences here, nothing more, nothing less.
Last edited by srambo; 2021-08-30 at 05:16 AM.
If you don't like it and want to move on, you're not repeatedly barfing out the same goddamn ignorant attack lines on threads about the game.If people don't like it, they don't like it. Just let them fucking not like it and move on.
Ill-informed or ignorant opinions are a thing. Just because you have an opinion about something doesn't mean your opinion is valid.
I've already exactly explained this in my comment that you flatout ignored, but somebody can say, "I didn't like X job because it felt slow." That's a valid opinion and experience to have. However if you follow up with that by dismissing the job and declaring that it's just slow in and of itself, when people are flatout telling you that it turns into something that IS not that? That is not a valid opinion to have.
Be mad that I accurately compared people declaring an entire game bad after playing 15% of it to idiots thinking the world is flat, I guess. It's the exact same kind of arrogant ignorance.
Last edited by Drindorai; 2021-08-30 at 10:56 AM.
What i like about the game is that you can create a character that acts as your avatar in the game and you experience his/her life.
Surely that can be the same way for you? You can’t say a game is good until you have finished literally everything. That 0.1% of content you missed might be the pieces that makes you hate the entire game. You don’t know, so your opinion is invalid…. Going by your logic that is.
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The story is bad, that was my opinion in the first 10 minutes, after the first 30 minutes, after the first hour and after I finished it.
You can’t say it’s good, you didn’t finish the entire game. So your opinion is just as invalid.
So if someone doesn’t finish something, their reason and opinion as to why they didn’t finish it is invalid?
God what stupid logic to hold.
I guarantee you won’t be saying the same if the person said it was good half way through, as going by your logic, that person is also wrong. But we won’t talk about that.