Do you think the night elves were justified in their spying on the blood elves?

[Tanaria]

SNIP

Ok then - so, Alliance surrenders all of it's land and gives it back to the Trolls.

Horde already has the most powerful faction of Trolls within it's ranks, so we're safe.

[Feanoro]

Reported.

If you can't debate then the MMo-Mods need to be involved.

I'm willing to debate, but if your calling me names (which is against the forum rules) then I will report. I don't resort to name-calling because if you do that, you have no argument.

Speaking of forum rules, informing people they are "reported" or "ignored" is against those rules.

[Tanaria]

Speaking of forum rules, informing people they are "reported" or "ignored" is against those rules.

Ahh - so when some Alliance fans told me that they were "sticking me on their ignore list" then that was all good, because they weren't suspended.

Can I ask, are you an Alliance fan?

[Hitei]

Ok then - so, Alliance surrenders all of it's land and gives it back to the Trolls.

Horde already has the most powerful faction of Trolls within it's ranks, so we're safe.

Do you see what I mean? You don't want to have a debate. You want to deflect to dumb strawman arguments. Also, the Zandalari are only the most powerful faction of trolls in their own minds, the entirety of their tiny mountain empire has been underwater for 10,000 years, with the only remaining part being Zandalar.

But sure, let's go with your strawman and all the land goes back to its original owners. That still wouldn't be Horde land, because even before it belonged to the ancestors of the Trolls, it belonged to the Titans and so would be the property of their descendent races (read: Humans, Dwarves and Gnomes) and before them it belonged to the Old Gods and insect races, and before that the Elementals.

So that land still isn't going to belong to the Blood Elves. But I guess enjoy your convoluted excuses for why the land only belongs to them and it's okay for them to steal it but no one else is allowed to be mean to them there.

[Kallisto]

Well, at THAT time, blood elves were doing shady and suspicious stuff, way more shady then humans and gnomes did. There is no point denying that. On the other hand, as it was said previously, night elves could do it differently. We've learned they send help to thalassians in ages past (Shandris hinting at Areiel and Emmarel claiming to help high elves during Amani incursion as well), not to mention that Tyrande and Maiev helped sin'dorei in their mission in Silverpine just few years prior to these events. If they wanted to find out what's going on in Quel'thalas, they could send sentinels and druids as a help for blood elves, which could eventually observe Quel'thalas status and report to Tyrande/Fandral or whoever sent them (we will probably never find out).

So, I'd say both sides could do better job in communication, but blood elves killing night elves in the end is justified and these night elves got what they were asking for. I didn't have that much impression that this night elf incursion was that much of a problem actually. They caused trouble, but it always felt like a side problem to a bigger issue - rising threat of Deatholme and the traitor Dar'khan. Most of the Eversong/Ghostland experience was about finding means how to be in control of their thirst for magic and not turning into wretched and pushing back the Scourge, fighting night elves was just minor thing.

It may not look like an issue on the surface, but what they did actually was almost as bad as Dar'khan's betrayal with the elf gates. As we know he letting down the shields allowed Arthas to march through Quel'thalas causing the destruction as he did. The night elves were not just there to spy, but to sabotage. In Eversong there are 2 defense sanctums, both of which are needed to keep the scurge away (how they work is not properly explained). The Night Elves already sabotaged one of them, which is why we execute the dwarf ambassador as it is found out he lead the attack under the guise of friendship.

Essentially if left alone the Night Elves would have almost certainly have gone after the second one, which would have had the scourge run rampant on Quel'thalas and the rebuilt Silvermoon.

[Tanaria]

Do you see what I mean? You don't want to have a debate. You want to deflect to dumb strawman arguments. Also, the Zandalari are only the most powerful faction of trolls in their own minds, the entirety of their tiny mountain empire has been underwater for 10,000 years, with the only remaining part being Zandalar.

But sure, let's go with your strawman and all the land goes back to its original owners. That still wouldn't be Horde land, because even before it belonged to the ancestors of the Trolls, it belonged to the Titans and so would be the property of their descendent races (read: Humans, Dwarves and Gnomes) and before them it belonged to the Old Gods and insect races, and before that the Elementals.

So that land still isn't going to belong to the Blood Elves. But I guess enjoy your convoluted excuses for why the land only belongs to them and it's okay for them to steal it but no one else is allowed to be mean to them there.

Have fun Alliance fan.

You do you, I'll do me.

[Steelangel]

Just like Horde helping out the Lightforged Draenei - only for them to jump over to team Blue.

The Lightforged Draenei didn't form the centerpiece of months worth of storyline and buildup to two raids worth of material. Suramar was the key region of the expansion. The Lightforged were on team Blue from the start - Turalyon wasn't about to goin join the greenies.

Hell, if Nightborne had joined the Alliance, then the whole expansion would have been the standard racist stereotype of the Horde. Second class. Around for convenience. Group of thugs - let the civilized races sort this.

The Nightborne shouldn't have joined any side and remained neutral.

And that "stereotype" is laughable considering the rampant Horde bias in story development time and consideration throughout the damn game's history. The Horde have been able to gently walk away from wide-scale pollution, forest destruction, strip-mining the most beautiful place in Pandaria, actual-factual Orc Naziism, releasing Old Gods, and the destruction of a race's homeland from Ashenvale to Teldrassil, culminating in the death of many many thousands.

...And they have paid no real cost for this. Adolf Garrosh gets his "heroic death". Sylvanas gets her soul back and won't be punished. Ji Firepaw sits in Orgrimar with his followers as if there was no trauma attached to what the Horde did to Pandaria---they painted it red and then allied with the Empire that tried to raise the Thunder King.

Edit---

But it looks like I'm arguing with a someone RPing a brainwashed blood-elf extremist. Good day!

[Tanaria]

The Lightforged Draenei didn't form the centerpiece of months worth of storyline and buildup to two raids worth of material. Suramar was the key region of the expansion. The Lightforged were on team Blue from the start - Turalyon wasn't about to goin join the greenies.



The Nightborne shouldn't have joined any side and remained neutral.

And that "stereotype" is laughable considering the rampant Horde bias in story development time and consideration throughout the damn game's history. The Horde have been able to gently walk away from wide-scale pollution, forest destruction, strip-mining the most beautiful place in Pandaria, actual-factual Orc Naziism, releasing Old Gods, and the destruction of a race's homeland from Ashenvale to Teldrassil, culminating in the death of many many thousands.

...And they have paid no real cost for this. Adolf Garrosh gets his "heroic death". Sylvanas gets her soul back and won't be punished. Ji Firepaw sits in Orgrimar with his followers as if there was no trauma attached to what the Horde did to Pandaria---they painted it red and then allied with the Empire that tried to raise the Thunder King.

Come on now.

You and I both know if Nightborne had joined the Alliance, you'd be like "Nightborne are Alliance hordies! Deal with it!" You'll reply to me saying that you don't care if they were Alliance - but you care deeply that they should not, under any circumstances, ever go team red.

And Horde Bias? Oh you mean the bias where Horde characters are ripped apart from us and cool characters like Garrosh, Thrall, Vol'jin and Sylvanas are taken away which has made a mockery of the "Warchief" mantle.

[Steelangel]

Come on now.

You and I both know if Nightborne had joined the Alliance, you'd be like "Nightborne are Alliance hordies! Deal with it!" You'll reply to me saying that you don't care if they were Alliance - but you care deeply that they should not, under any circumstances, ever go team red.

And Horde Bias? Oh you mean the bias where Horde characters are ripped apart from us and cool characters like Garrosh, Thrall, Vol'jin and Sylvanas are taken away which has made a mockery of the "Warchief" mantle.

It makes the most sense for them to have remained neutral, but the largest amount of convoluted logic exists for them to have joined the Horde*.

And yes, Horde Bias. The greatest character development for any faction belongs to the Horde. Negative character development is still better than no character development; and it is clear that the Horde's storyline has been much more fleshed out across all of the main characters, not just Anduin**, Jaina*** and Tyrande.

* Or at least stayed post-Teldrassil; but since the game cannot remove a race from a faction for gameplay purposes, the story writers could anticipate what would have happened because that story had already been at least outlined by the time the allied race was added.

** Developed mostly off-screen

*** Has gone from diplomatic to angry to realpolitik.

[Tanaria]

It makes the most sense for them to have remained neutral, but the largest amount of convoluted logic exists for them to have joined the Horde*.

And yes, Horde Bias. The greatest character development for any faction belongs to the Horde. Negative character development is still better than no character development; and it is clear that the Horde's storyline has been much more fleshed out across all of the main characters, not just Anduin**, Jaina*** and Tyrande.

* Or at least stayed post-Teldrassil; but since the game cannot remove a race from a faction for gameplay purposes, the story writers could anticipate what would have happened because that story had already been at least outlined by the time the allied race was added.

** Developed mostly off-screen

*** Has gone from diplomatic to angry to realpolitik.

So, Tyrande having to be taught how to fight by Varian was so much better than her not getting any lore in Mists?

I'm afraid many Horde fans will disagree with this and will Alliance fans.

I'd rather Sylvanas not get lore progression if this was the story Blizzard have baked.

[Rozz]

Stay on topic. Not every thread needs to turn into a faction bias debate initiated by tangents.

All of the quest text is extremely biased and leaving out important details that players should already know. NEs were suspicious of people going through bad times and finding concerning solutions to a worse problem (extinction). Blood elves attacked what they saw as a threat to their survival. Tbh it's very minor in the scheme of things, so it's no surprise it's never brought up again.

[Tanaria]

All of the quest text is extremely biased and leaving out important details that players should already know. NEs were suspicious of people going through bad times and finding concerning solutions to a worse problem (extinction). Blood elves attacked what they saw as a threat to their survival. Tbh it's very minor in the scheme of things, so it's no surprise it's never brought up again.

For me, Blizzard needs to remember events like this, otherwise we end up with the War of Thorns Novella where the author makes a critical error.

It's also the reason why I believe that faction-war based expansions need to be a thing of the past.

[kranur]

Eh ... some of the TBC lore was just shoved in there for gameplay reasons.
They wanted to add more diversity to horde's "monster" races and they wanted to have Illidan, KT and Vashj as bosses. As a result, the story behind these doesn't really make much sense.

And well .. it worked ... could have worked a little more on that lore though.

[loras]

I have my own theory about that.

By the time blood elf introduction storyline begins, Draenei story already happened.
- Blood elves already have Naaru captured in Tempest Keep. They already learned how to siphon Light from it and established Blood Knight order.
- Draenei storyline happened shortly after Sunfury sabotaged them and kidnapped Mu'ru.

By that time, Draenei are already part of the Alliance, they already knew blood elves are in league with demons (conclussion of Bloodmyst is killing of Eredar who commands blood elves). They don't know that elves in Quel'thalas are unaware of their Prince's new allegience. It's also the time when high elves were exiled for refusing draining mana from living beings.

It is possible that night elves learned that blood elves allied with demons and started with dangerous magical practises. That alone might be enough for night elves to check on blood elves and learn about them. Night elves were extremely cautious of Legion's return, so blood elves meddling with dangerous magic was probably issue for them.

On the other hand, they probably should only watch from afar and stay away from any confrontation and sabotage. From blood elf PoV, I don't see anything bad in dealing with these night elves.

This, it wasn't a clear cut good-vs.-evil thing.
Which is noteworthy because back then they apparantly wrote morally grey storylines without trying.

[Rozz]

For me, Blizzard needs to remember events like this, otherwise we end up with the War of Thorns Novella where the author makes a critical error.

It's also the reason why I believe that faction-war based expansions need to be a thing of the past.

Is is important that they remember, but I think the guy who used to be in charge of this sort of thing has never had his position re-filled. Basically a lore keeper to keep track of this type of stuff.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

Is is important that they remember, but I think the guy who used to be in charge of this sort of thing has never had his position re-filled. Basically a lore keeper to keep track of this type of stuff.

Well the ones who imagined and wrote the war of Thorns clearly didn't know their stuff or made their researches, from this incident, to a blood elf being supposely old enough to remember Malfurion banishing him even if High and Blood Elves have a too short lifespan compared to Night Elves for that, and all the rest of the war.

[Ardenaso]

the Night Elves really have no business in Quel'thalas other than perhaps sending an emissary to inquire about the Blood Elves in Azuremyst, not spying or whatsoever after they sent the Highborne away

After all, the Alliance said very little about Quel'Thalas belonging to a friendly or neutral power - so now, because Quel'Thalas is in the hands of a hostile power that can and will use it at minimum as a staging point, suddenly it's a problem?

to be fair the Alliance had 6 years to help Quel'thalas from the Scourge/Amani/Wretched so they might not have to join the Horde out of desperation, but they didn't

- - - Updated - - -

Ok then - so, Alliance surrenders all of it's land and gives it back to the Trolls.

Horde already has the most powerful faction of Trolls within it's ranks, so we're safe.

I'd wager there could be compromise and reparations for both Amani and Sin'dorei considering that the Amani aren't in any position to do anything and they have speakers with the Zandalari - who are also part of the Horde alongside the Sin'dorei

If the Orcs and Blood Elves can be allies so can the Amani and Blood Elves, eventually

[Drindorai]

Just like Horde helping out the Lightforged Draenei - only for them to jump over to team Blue.

Hell, if Nightborne had joined the Alliance, then the whole expansion would have been the standard racist stereotype of the Horde. Second class. Around for convenience. Group of thugs - let the civilized races sort this.

Yeah except the LF Draenei didn't immediately help the Alliance commit genocide against the Horde.

The Thalyssra thing sticks out to people because Tyrande straight up says she hopes Thalyssra and the Nightborne do not become like Azshara, and then their first act is to do something very Azshara-esque.

[jellmoo]

I never really understood why the Night Elves were spying on the Blood Elves. It's a really random thing for them to be concerned about given how far away they are from one another and how many other Horde threats are right outside their doorstep.

I would have thought it would have been SI:7 keeping tabs on a former ally that has gone rogue. It really felt like forced storytelling.

[Powerogue]

It was paranoid, but that's in line with the night elves distrusting magic. It's why no one should have been surprised when that same paranoia caused them to shun the nightborne.

Kael'thas goes evil
night elves: Hah, we were right all along.

Elisande goes evil
night elves: Hah, we were right all along. Man, we're on a roll.