Do you think the night elves were justified in their spying on the blood elves?

[Jastall]

Who cares? The incident serves as a thinly-veiled excuse to have the BEs join team red, just like that random Dwarf who wants to genocide them literally for the lulz. And all that happened because Blizzard wanted a pretty race in the Horde, in-story logic being distantly secondary to the demands of gameplay.

[Ardenaso]

It was paranoid, but that's in line with the night elves distrusting magic. It's why no one should have been surprised when that same paranoia caused them to shun the nightborne.

Kael'thas goes evil
night elves: Hah, we were right all along.

Elisande goes evil
night elves: Hah, we were right all along. Man, we're on a roll.

kinda too specific to do it on them when they didn't when Aegwynn was fighting Sargeras or the entirety of WC2 or the entirety of WC3 in Eastern Kingdoms

[Tanaria]

Yeah except the LF Draenei didn't immediately help the Alliance commit genocide against the Horde.

The Thalyssra thing sticks out to people because Tyrande straight up says she hopes Thalyssra and the Nightborne do not become like Azshara, and then their first act is to do something very Azshara-esque.

It's as though the Nightborne were supposed to know what Sylvanas was going to do...hell, not even Sylvanas knew what she was going to do until Delaryn offended her.

I mean why is it only the Shal'dorei that need to have this gift of foresight?

Were any of the Horde leaders happy with what happened? Only 2 out of how many?

And let us not forget what the Lightforged Draenei and Naaru can enforce onto people. We saw that with the Mag'har Recruitment. Turaylon is exactly like Yrel and I do look forward to seeing a more zealous Alliance leader and more calm and sensible Horde leader like Lor'themar (since he seems to be the de-facto face of the Horde, whilst Thrall and Baine are away.)

[Drindorai]

Were any of the Horde leaders happy with what happened? Only 2 out of how many?

And they all went along with it. And kept going along with it until the Alliance struck back and started winning in the war.

We were talking about the Nightborne because...we were talking about the Nightborne. Also Tyrande flatout calls out exactly the thing that immediately happens next. That's kind of important.

And let us not forget what the Lightforged Draenei and Naaru can enforce onto people.

Xe'ra tried to force the Lightforged process onto Illidan. The LF Draenei unlock blatantly shows you that normally it's a choice you have to make that requires vigorous preparation and even sometimes the Lightforged leaders straight up tell recruits they don't think they should do it.

Turaylon is exactly like Yrel

Except...he's not? And from every interaction we've seen from him with multiple characters now post his introduction back into the story in 7.3 we see that he's not? He's not going around trying to Lightforge people by force. There's no doubt that he's biased toward the Light but Yrel and AU Xe'ra were literally conquering the planet and forcibly conscripting people to their side.

Turaylon did not do that. There's the potential that he might, but until that happens that is a MAJOR difference between him and Yrel.

If anything all the Yrel update in BfA reveals it that it's Xe'ra herself that is the problem. She's the zealot that is warping everyone around her into insane cultists.

[Tanaria]

And they all went along with it. And kept going along with it until the Alliance struck back and started winning in the war.

We were talking about the Nightborne because...we were talking about the Nightborne. Also Tyrande flatout calls out exactly the thing that immediately happens next.

So who knew what Sylvanas was going to do? Last time I checked, neither the Nightborne nor the Highmountain were present during the assault on Darkshore.

And Tyrande insults 2 groups of people (Nightborne directly and Sin'dorei indirectly) when they were supposed to be working together. She had all the chances to recruit Thalyssra and the Nightborne as did Vereesa, but both chose to leave Suramar after Gul'dan was killed.

- - - Updated - - -

Xe'ra tried to force the Lightforged process onto Illidan. The LF Draenei unlock flatout shows you that normally it's a choice you have to make that requires vigorous preparation and even sometimes the Lightforged leaders straight up tell recruits they don't think they should do it.

Except...he's not? And from every interaction we've seen from him with multiple characters now post his introduction back into the story in 7.3 we see that he's not? He's not going around trying to Lightforge people by force. There's no doubt that he's biased toward the Light but Yrel and AU Xe'ra were literally conquering the planet and forcibly conscripting people to their side.

Turaylon did not do that. There's the potential that he might, but until that happens that is a MAJOR difference between him and Yrel.

If anything all the Yrel update in BfA reveals it that it's Xe'ra herself that is the problem. She's the zealot that is warping everyone around her into insane cultists.

Turaylon was prepared to kill Illidan, because the the night elf rightfully destroyed the golden wind chime.

He lied when he claimed Illidan had doomed them all. He is biased towards the Light and given a chance, he will strike out...which I actually like. It's about time the Alliance got villain-batted.
Is Turaylon stable to lead Stormwind, if not all views point to his Light-dedication? What is his relation to the Kaldorei who don't worship the Holy Light at all? To me, from what I've seen, he's not the most stable of characters to be leading the Alliance.

[Drindorai]

So who knew what Sylvanas was going to do? Last time I checked, neither the Nightborne nor the Highmountain were present during the assault on Darkshore.

What is this weird reframing that you're trying to do here? I never said that they should have known ahead of time what Sylvanas was going to do. You tried to make the comparison that the Nightborne joining the Horde was just like the Lightforged Draenei joining the Alliance in response to people talking about Thalyssra and her people joining a faction that immediately commits genocide onto a race whose leader hoped they wouldn't act that way.

The Lightforged Draenei, and the Alliance, did not start the war. The Lightforged Draenei did not nuke a Horde city from orbit with the Vindicaar or something. The Nightborne WERE part of the Horde when they genocided the Night Elves. They did not do or say anything showing that they were against it before, during, or after it happened. In fact, the only time Thalyssra even says anything against Sylvanas is after Baine is arrested and then FINALLY she compares her to Elisande.

And Tyrande insults 2 groups of people (Nightborne directly and Sin'dorei indirectly) when they were supposed to be working together.

Yup it's almost like one group sided with the Legion during the War of the Ancients and the other group went onto summon Kil'jaeden onto Azeroth in BC.

Turaylon was prepared to kill Illidan, because the the night elf rightfully destroyed the golden wind chime.

And then...stopped and didn't try again?

He is biased towards the Light and given a chance, he will strike out

Which...hasn't happened yet but alright, I can see I'm working with a lost cause and you're arguing hypotheticals against things that actually happened. So I'm out.

[Tanaria]

Snip

Seems to me that the idea of the Alliance actually being cool and not "white knight" is something that your against.

And the group that sided with the Legion during the WoTA were Highborne NIGHT ELVES. The Sin'dorei who joined with Kil'jaedon were Sunfury Blood Elves, not Silvermoon Horde Blood Elves and just like the Sunfury, the Nightborne who joined the Legion were Elisande's Elite.

It's ironic how the Night Elves always like to call other races, yet they've got their own bunch of mana addicts (and fel-addicts if we want to delve into it), in the Shen'dralar. Pot-kettle-black, Whisperwind..

And Turaylon - whether he stopped or not is irrelevant. The fact is, he can't see any other PoV other than the Holy Light. Blizzard have long hinted at internal conflicts within the Alliance...perhaps this is it. I'd hope so...gives the Horde a break.

[vsb]

It was Fendral who ordered them to spy. He betrayed elves later. Probably it was all plotted by the Old Gods.

[Tanaria]

It was Fendral who ordered them to spy. He betrayed elves later. Probably it was all plotted by the Old Gods.

But I need to see the evidence. I can believe he sent the Darnassian Druids, but the Sentinels still fall under Tyrande and Shandris.
One of them must have known that they were down on Sentinels and Huntresses?

EDIT:

I'd like to expand on @Vaedan and his theory, because some people might question "Why was it Night Elves?" I mean, sure - Humans might have been the more obvious choice due to the relation between the Sin'dorei and the Humans.

But what if the person who gave the Night Elves intel about the Sunhawk Blood Elves on Bloodmyst Isle was Priestess Kyleen Il'dinare - the Night Elf who tasks you to deal with the Naga, who is also present when the Gnome traitor, working for Kael'thas, is revealed to the Alliance landing party.
Could it be, that after the events, she believed that the Blood Elves were in allegiance not just with the Legion, but also Azshara?

[Vaedan]

But I need to see the evidence. I can believe he sent the Darnassian Druids, but the Sentinels still fall under Tyrande and Shandris.
One of them must have known that they were down on Sentinels and Huntresses?

EDIT:

I'd like to expand on @Vaedan and his theory, because some people might question "Why was it Night Elves?" I mean, sure - Humans might have been the more obvious choice due to the relation between the Sin'dorei and the Humans.

But what if the person who gave the Night Elves intel about the Sunhawk Blood Elves on Bloodmyst Isle was Priestess Kyleen Il'dinare - the Night Elf who tasks you to deal with the Naga, who is also present when the Gnome traitor, working for Kael'thas, is revealed to the Alliance landing party.
Could it be, that after the events, she believed that the Blood Elves were in allegiance not just with the Legion, but also Azshara?

Nice find. Indeed it could be her. It was probably already known that Kael was aided by naga in Ruins of Dalaran before their exodus to Outland. From that time, blood elves were either in Outland or isolated in ruins of their homeland, fighting tooth and nail to reclaim IT from the Scourge.

Sure, there were druids, so Fandral seem as possible "mastermind", but majority of kaldorei forces in Quel'thalas were sentinels, so even if Fandral came up with the idea and requested sentinel escort from Tyrande/Shandris, they had to approve of this action, which they obviously did. Also, Tyrande and sentinels were responsible for Long Vigil and we've seen sentinels were more prejudiced against spellcasters (and highborne) then rest of community.

So yes, it's almost certain that Tyrande or Shandris (or both) were involved in Night elf forces in Quel'thalas.

[loras]

It really isn't hard to do.

If both sides are the good guys of their own story, and the bad guys of each other's stories - That's morally grey. The Horde and Alliance war used to make sense because they could play off of this repeatedly, but never find true solid ground in which they shared.

This hasn't made sense since Wrath. Even early TBC saw the beginnings of change as Horde and Alliance put aside their struggles to work toward a common goal - A shared, solid foundation for peace. Ever since that foundation was established, the two sides continuously fighting hasn't continued to make sense. Ultimately, no matter what drivel the writers convince people to eat up, we know we'll return to that foundation of peace, and any fighting in between WILL be temporary to fuel the plot.

This breaks the sense that the game is an evolving story, and thus breaks people's immersion within the game. The game's story isn't evolving if it keeps repeating the same beats - But the game itself is. It's systems, it's reward structure, everything AROUND the repetitious story keeps growing. We have to view it from the outside and KNOW that any fighting is temporary in order to know the story WILL eventually move on, and you cannot be immersed OUTSIDE the story.

Which is why people shit on Blizzard for this constantly.

To be fair you can approach peace but never reach it, just look at real life.

Just because you seem to be making big steps and such doesn't mean it's actually going forward beyond alliances of convenience - though that is not to say that i am defending the way it has been written. Just that peace in WoW is, as many have pointed out, not the point of WoW and thus unlikely to ever happen.

However i would personally like a more multifacetted plot - less red vs. blue with us being dragged along, and as they've turned to giving players some agency in terms of character building recently i've some hope for allowing individuals to work with the opposite faction as mercenaries (and that is besides the moments we already cooperate as "honored heroes" such as when cooperating on lore stuff).

[Tanaria]

Nice find. Indeed it could be her. It was probably already known that Kael was aided by naga in Ruins of Dalaran before their exodus to Outland. From that time, blood elves were either in Outland or isolated in ruins of their homeland, fighting tooth and nail to reclaim IT from the Scourge.

Sure, there were druids, so Fandral seem as possible "mastermind", but majority of kaldorei forces in Quel'thalas were sentinels, so even if Fandral came up with the idea and requested sentinel escort from Tyrande/Shandris, they had to approve of this action, which they obviously did. Also, Tyrande and sentinels were responsible for Long Vigil and we've seen sentinels were more prejudiced against spellcasters (and highborne) then rest of community.

So yes, it's almost certain that Tyrande or Shandris (or both) were involved in Night elf forces in Quel'thalas.

It's possible.

The people who might knock this theory are those who believed that it was Fandral who sent the Night Elves, because if it was Kyleen, she would have reported it to Tyrande (or the Sisterhood of Elune if nothing else.)

This is what also might catch the Blood Elves in Quel'Thalas, off guard and treat the Ironforge Envoy (which could have been sent from the words of Archaeologist Adamant Ironheart - the Dwarf who talks to Kyleen, frequently) with eventual hostility and are not happy with the Night Elves infiltrating their Sanctums and lands.

But I think, what we can all agree, is that the Sin'dorei were right to defend themselves because they were fighting a losing battle against 3 hostile forces (Wretched, Amani and Scourge.)

[Vaedan]

It's possible.

The people who might knock this theory are those who believed that it was Fandral who sent the Night Elves, because if it was Kyleen, she would have reported it to Tyrande (or the Sisterhood of Elune if nothing else.)

This is what also might catch the Blood Elves in Quel'Thalas, off guard and treat the Ironforge Envoy (which could have been sent from the words of Archaeologist Adamant Ironheart - the Dwarf who talks to Kyleen, frequently) with eventual hostility and are not happy with the Night Elves infiltrating their Sanctums and lands.

But I think, what we can all agree, is that the Sin'dorei were right to defend themselves because they were fighting a losing battle against 3 hostile forces (Wretched, Amani and Scourge.)

Sure, blood elf reaction to night elf incursion is justified, there is no discussion on that matter. Some hardcore fans interpret night elf pressence as some huge full scale invasion, which is not accurate either.

What is worth discussing is what brought night elves to Quel'thalas and why they were hostile in the first place, because this kind of behaviour is completely different to their reclusive nature.

I doubt we will get any explanation on that matter. It is clear that they were used as a plot device to allienate blood elves from the Alliance and to build up tension between both elven groups (which was almost non existent before, as seen in WC3). As you said, the rift between sin'dorei could be easily build upon human / elf dynamics from the WC3 which ended up with showing humans as racist bunch which treats elves as nothing better then cannon fodder. Garithos' actions are surprisingly not brought up and I think that alone could be enough for bringing sin'dorei to the Horde.

[Eggroll]

Oh please.

Spying and acting hostile on the resident Blood Elves. The Night Elves were clearly being racist and illegally invading a land that they had no business going to.

If they are that concerned about users of fel magic, maybe they need to talk to the Humans and Gnomes first, before they start marching on the poor Sin'dorei who were still recovering from the Third War events and dealing with the Scourge, Amani and now night elves.

Oh please, spying is normal political action. What this has got to do with racism will remain your secret.

[Tanaria]

Sure, blood elf reaction to night elf incursion is justified, there is no discussion on that matter. Some hardcore fans interpret night elf pressence as some huge full scale invasion, which is not accurate either.

What is worth discussing is what brought night elves to Quel'thalas and why they were hostile in the first place, because this kind of behaviour is completely different to their reclusive nature.

I doubt we will get any explanation on that matter. It is clear that they were used as a plot device to allienate blood elves from the Alliance and to build up tension between both elven groups (which was almost non existent before, as seen in WC3). As you said, the rift between sin'dorei could be easily build upon human / elf dynamics from the WC3 which ended up with showing humans as racist bunch which treats elves as nothing better then cannon fodder. Garithos' actions are surprisingly not brought up and I think that alone could be enough for bringing sin'dorei to the Horde.

This is why I'm slightly baffled as to why they didn't use Stormwind/Human forces. The explanation would have been fairly obvious, plus would have built on the established lore later on, when Sylvanas sent Forsaken Envoys to Stormwind and they never returned. It would all make sense.

I guess they wanted an early episode of Blood Elves vs Night Elves - but that story has never been told well. Blood Elves vs High Elves was much better and felt like a real hatred between the two.
Also, Night Elves have often been quite friendly towards High Elves and Void Elves (Shandris with Alleria, Vereesa and Umbric) and the Sentinels have worked with the Farstriders a few times. Twice in-game for the Hunter Campaign and when Lor'themar and Shandris coordinated their armies at the gates of Orgrimmar. Not to mention Emmarell Shadewarden working with Talanas Windrunner, then we have Shandris and Areiel. The main hatred we've seen from Night Elves has always been directed towards those who are/were directly, Highborne.

Examples include, but possibly not limited to:
Mordent Evenshade and his Highborne - Shandris states that she'd gladly kill them if it weren't for Tyrande's mercy.
The Nightborne - Tyrande and Shandris
The Naga - more obvious reasons why.

Like we say, they likely just wanted to build on elf conflict between these two main groups, but it would have made more sense to use the Humans because better reasons could have been made - especially if Stormwind Mages were attempting to Scry into Quel'Thalas and maybe their magics were causing the Sanctums to malfunction - maybe on accident.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh please, spying is normal political action. What this has got to do with racism will remain your secret.

Like I say, if they are that concerned about fel magic, maybe they need to spy on Stormwind and Ironforge, before bringing their anti-magic feelings to the Sin'dorei.

[Newname1234567890]

It's only gameplay reason. Else them joining the horde is as retarded as them joining the alliance and as retarded as forsaken joining the horde.
A third faction forsaken, bloodelves, and actual draeney (not the space russian octopus) would have make sense.

Both the Blood Elves and the Forsaken were "betrayed" (certainly as far as they are concerned) by humanity. The Horde needed allies in the Eastern Kingdoms.

So how does it make no sense?

[Clone]

No the night elves were not justified in spying on blood elves. That's because spying requires no justification. Their mistakes was getting caught.

[Lolites]

Kinda amusing that you frame the Night Elves as "invading a land they had no business going to" because they were spying and sabotaged some things

not "some things", their arcane sanctums, which are soure of energy they need due to sunwell being "out of order", i believe it even powers the defense "wall" made of runestones between ghostlands and eversong

so yeah, if you go to foreign country and sabotage their energy grid or defense system you ARE invading them...
not to mention the military encampment in ghostlands...

[ravenmoon]

Garithos was the one who drove Kael'thas from the Alliance. But Quel'Thalas remained neutral for several years - even rejecting Sylvanas when she reached out to them, after which the tauren sympathized with her people's condition and welcomed them into the Horde. But remember the real reason why the blood elves joined the Horde? That was only because the night elves' Sentinel spies had established a military base, and were spying on their activities while secretly sabotaging their arcane sanctums.

I want to analyze this controversy from BOTH sides, from the blood elves and the night elves' conflicting perspectives:

The blood elves (from their POV):

- We are still neutral. We have not attacked Darnassus or Kalimdor. We did not spy on your lands - or harm the night elf people. And yet you are here uninvited, intruding upon our sovereignty without any provocation.
- How dare the night elves judge us? After they banished our people from Kalimdor thousands of years ago - denying us our birthright and heritage? Tyrande and Malfurion no longer have absolutely any authority to interfere in our internal affairs.
- The night elves did nothing to assist us during the Third War, or afterwards. They briefly helped Kael'thas later on only out of mutual convenience. They did nothing to help us fight back the Scourge or prevent the genocide of our people. Why should we respect their concerns now?
- The night elves took advantage of our trust in the dwarves, our former allies, by sending Anvilward, as an "ambassador", adding insult to injury. They were self-righteous cowards to spurn our ancestors, and to fear even facing or communicating with us directly. They are truly without dignity and honor. Never again will we tolerate being betrayed or manipulated, not by anyone or anything.

The night elves (from their POV):

- Kael'thas allied with the naga, our ancient and hated enemies - and killed some Alliance members while escaping, despite Tyrande and Malfurion assisting him earlier in the Eastern Kingdoms.
- We have helped the quel'dorei in the past during the Long Vigil, despite our differences. For example, Emmarel went to assist Talanas Windrunner. And Shandris Feathermoon fought beside Areiel several thousand years ago.
- The blood elves are Dath'Remar's people, and we still feel personal responsibility for their wrongful actions, as their ancestors were of our people. True, he assisted Lady Tyrande. But he and his Highborne still helped her summon the portal for the Legion, destroying countless lives and causing the Sundering. Who knows what second calamity could result from reckless use of magic, so soon after the Third War? We cannot forget how Illidan, another ally of the naga, nearly destroyed parts of the world when he attacked the Lich King from Dalaran Crater. Our duty now is to preserve the balance in all of Azeroth after the loss of our ancient immortality, and Nordrassil's near-destruction."
- The blood elves are consumed by bitter anger and hatred -- they are irrational, unstable, unpredictable and have callously exiled even the high elves, their own kin, from their lands, simply because they refuse to drain energies from mana wryms. We see them as emotionally damaged arcane addicts, who practice even darker and more dangerous magics - unlike we who resolutely shun both schools. We cannot risk them hurting others or themselves. We must keep a close eye upon them.
- Everyone spies on everyone else. The blood elves killing a couple of spies without negotiation or dialogue, spies who were not at first openly aggressive, is akin to Stormwind humans killing Cenarion Circle agents who quietly spy in their city, understandable, perhaps, but a very harsh and excessive move. Our people and the Alliance were not officially enemies to the blood elves, as Silvermoon was not then part of the Horde, and so they essentially attacked a neutral party, even if we were spying upon them.
- Of course, the Azuremyst Isle storyline. The night elves were the reason the draenei joined the Alliance. No doubt the draenei also informed them about the blood elves sabotaging the Exodar and thereby killing even more of their already near-extinct people, further spreading doubt and suspicion against their kin. But the exact timeline of events is very vague and unclear. However, Chronicle lists draenei joining the Alliance via the night elves, in the section immediately before blood elves joining Horde via Sylvanas.

Notes:
- Tyrande might not have sent the Sentinel spies. Fandral might have sent the expedition - as an Archdruid of the Cenarion Circle, he might have viewed the blood elves and their activities with deep mistrust and particular disgust, and using his long-standing and considerable influence in night elf society, quietly arranged the Sentinel spies, without informing her or the other Alliance leaders.
- The blood elves seemed neutral towards the night elves prior to this incident. Kael'thas was not hostile to Tyrande and Malfurion when he encountered them, nor they towards him. In Blood of the Highborne, the night elves are mentioned without hostility several times, one blood elf even declaring they were right regarding arcane magic use after the Sunwell was tainted. And towards the end, Liadrin hesitated and quietly mentioned that their kaldorei cousins would be surprised, after Lor'themar informed her he was negotiating membership with the Horde, to which he replied that times change and people change.

Few slight corrections. At this point the night elves didn’t resolutely shun arcane like pre Wc3.

Legion had already returned and it was pointless. As you see they worked with human and high elf mages in the Mt Hyjal battle and allied with arcane using humans and Draenei etc.

What they hadn’t done was lift the practice ban on their people and the ban on highborne in their lands. But they weren’t shunning at this point which is why Cata Shen’dralar made sense.

also Illidan association was a more powerful motivator to mistrust the blood elves than Naha were.

Illidan was perceived as rogue after TFT and Karl’s had, since first meeting Tyrande started using fel. His is the red flag that sets off the night elves to warn the alliance and also splits the identity of the high elves from the blood elves as at this point handling fel is exclusively tied to and believed to mean you are evil and a legion lackey.

The night elves send their team in to verify whether the blood elves have gone that far. They choose to spy instead of ask makes sense giving their mistrust at this point in time after knowing Karl has shuttled off with Illidan and Vashj.

Question for them is are the rest of the race now corrupt. How much do? Etc. They feel their reason for query is legit.

The dwarf is prob their to poke via official diplomatic channels while the night elves verify

[Tanaria]

SNIP

And, like Vaedan and I agreed, the Sin'dorei were entirely correct in defending themselves, from this hostile operation.

They rightfully sent the night elves packing and took their documents.