To all the Bellulars, Asmogolds, Preaches, QoL'ers and Fans that want to Design WOW.

[Lolites]

Quoting the same post, with two different posts of your own. Yikers.

way to see the IMPORTANT thing in discusion...

Are you delusional enough to argue that feedback systems do not work in a genre/industry that has thrived off said feedback systems?

not even remotely close to what i said...
but nice show of why "feedback" is mostly useless - i asked you name a game and your response is "every game"... thats like asking how much is 2+2 and get "number" as answer...

so i ask as simple as possible: name a game, mmorpg preferably, where they make CONSTATN big changes via hotfixes (not in patches, thats what blizz does) to how systems work (not class tuning or similar, big systematic changes) based on player feedback

[Glazey]

way to see the IMPORTANT thing in discusion...



not even remotely close to what i said...
but nice show of why "feedback" is mostly useless - i asked you name a game and your response is "every game"... thats like asking how much is 2+2 and get "number" as answer...

so i ask as simple as possible: name a game, mmorpg preferably, where they make CONSTATN big changes via hotfixes (not in patches, thats what blizz does) to how systems work (not class tuning or similar, big systematic changes) based on player feedback

Way to avoid actually replying. Edit; I'm going to assume you finally got every thought in your brain down now before hitting that reply button. I'm not going to go back and edit this post again or reply to any new thing that popped up in your head. Get everything down before hitting the reply button.

Delusional Debra. Feedback is never useless, that is just a retarded take to say feedback is "mostly" useless. My response was every single multiplayer game is adjusted based on player feedback. This is true, we see it every time a patch/hotfix happens in those game. A hotfix is just a change that doesn't happen in a patch, but if you wanna try going down the technical route, we can.

You're changing the goal post now, we went from discussing player feedback and its impact on games to you bringing up how often that feedback is implemented. Two different things, stay on topic.

[dope_danny]

Usually its the .2 update when the "to all the X" threads start. At this rate we will be getting the "the REAL reason Y" threads by november.

[Gadzooks]

Spot on...
And the funny/sad part is, that at Blizz they are looking for new design and similar jobs non stop, but not one of them sent their resume to Blizz... Or maybe they did and were rejected because, "NO GAME DESIGN EXPERIENCE".

Yet, people listen to this sheep dogs like they are all mighty lords of game design...

That's assuming any of them want to work for Blizzard - and for guys like Preach, he'd have to uproot his family and move to LA to do it, and why would he do that, when he's never expressed any interest in being one?

I think you're just playing a very lame version of "you'll be sowwy!" attacking streamers who have abandoned WoW. They made decisions, decisions that could hurt or hinder their jobs, and from no fault of their own, but you're gonna sit there and say "They're just JELLUS" and that they secretly want to work for Blizzard? Really?

I enjoy movies, a lot. But no part of me wants to be a director, or actor. So that means I can't decide for myself if a movie is good or not? Nah. It doesn't work that way.

Streamers have opinions. Bellular might spout off about design and fixes because...well, he's Bellular - has he mentioned he's a game dev? - but I've never seen guys like Preach try to do more than say "this system sucks, please fix." (And I don't pay a single bit of attention to Asmondgold, if I want his opinion I can watch the other streams that he parriots where his opinions originate)

That Blizzard chose guys like Preach to do Q&As for marketing means they have more impact and insight than you think they do, or claim they don't. I don't see the point in a post like yours, at all.

[Lolites]

Way to avoid actually replying.

way to response after first word before waiting for me to actualy finish... i know some people have nothing better to do that argue on forums but ill do it just in free time between other things so it takes a minute...

no matter i got enough information to see its pointless to waste my time with you

[Kralljin]

Rule Number 1 of arguments over WoW design: The argument will always degrade into food service analogies.

It's just the most common analogy for those matters.

Feel free to replace it with "You have to be a car engineer to rate a car" or "You have to be a video game developer to give feedback".

[Okacz]

here is the thing, players sugest 545341654155754124 changes, most of them shit, some good
blizzard takes couple of the good ones, and implement them and suddenly players are oh so briliant and always know better? sorry but no...

Players can only provide feedback. If feedback is provided (which it was, it was clear as day, and it happened with systems of at least 3 expansions in a row) and not adressed, blaming the PLAYERS for anything is... well, less than ideal.

If Blizzard took some obscure suggestion of a random forum dweller to heart and designed a raid around it - that would be an interesting win for the guy. But, if they hear resoundingly loud feedback from the whole playerbase, and ignore it, only to add the changes later - it means they knew about the issue, and left it in on purpose. Saying otherwise would make them too incompetent to comprehend.

jeez its so atypical to ease down and make catchups later into expansion, its not like its been done since burning crusade...
and would the game collapse without those changes? personaly, i dont have as much time as in previous years so i play casualy and those "problems" had no negative impact on my play...

"Collapse"? Probably no, but I though we want things to be better? What, is the status quo of glaring issues with catchup systems a fine way to go about it? Hey, it's been shit for long enough, let's give it a pass.

And I wouldn't say that problems having no impact upon your playstyle in particular is something to ignore. I main pure DPS classes, and do almost exclusively PvE, so I don't give 2 shits about conduit energy. But I can see the problem, and hear about it from other players who, for instance, play Druid, and like to do completly different things across multiple specs, it becomes an issue. Or someone changing covenant to minmax his character - why remove all his anima? I didn't have that issue, I didn't have to change covenant.

[Gadzooks]

Fans are great at pointing out what doesn't work.

They are shitty at pointing out why it doesn't work or how to improve it.

I would disagree strenuously on the first part - guys like Preach are excellent at examining and exploring the over-complicated systems Ion & Co. invent, and then pinpointing what part of it is the bad part.

Improving it? That ain't their job. Or ours. It's on the devs to fix it. If Ford sells you a car that has a poorly design transmission, you're okay with Ford saying "Well, you can't tell us why it doesn't work, and it's on you to redesign it"? Because that's your stance. And, some of us DID point it out, in the SL beta - and we were ignored. So...now what? It's still our fault, according to you?

The devs get paid to make it work, and make it fun. If they're not doing that, it's not our job to fix it. I know Blizzard has taken the cowardly "constructive criticism" copout for far too long, and people like you parrot it. If Ion's team releases a gameplay mechanic that's broken, it's on him and his team to fix it, they get a paycheck to do that very thing, we don't.

[Mokrath]

People can call out bad game design without being game designers.
They can also make suggestions.
Then the professionals are supposed to take into consideration what the people buying their product say and use their experience and knowledge to improve the product.
Nobody is expecting them to take every change verbatim and put it in the game. Even if 9.1.5 is literally doing that with anima, souls, maw skip, renown/campaign skip and many other things people have been telling them since Beta.
But sure, lets blame the players some more.

[anveena]

I'd trust them designing the game over the trash blizzard has put out the past decade.

[korijenkins]

Spot on...
And the funny/sad part is, that at Blizz they are looking for new design and similar jobs non stop, but not one of them sent their resume to Blizz... Or maybe they did and were rejected because, "NO GAME DESIGN EXPERIENCE".

Yet, people listen to this sheep dogs like they are all mighty lords of game design...

Who is Greg Street?

Game design is not particularly difficult. It requires testing and feedback and a small amount of creativity.

People seem to think game design = coding. It doesn't, two separate things.

If you ever made one of those moving flip books in school, you can design a game.

[Glazey]

way to response after first word before waiting for me to actualy finish... i know some people have nothing better to do that argue on forums but ill do it just in free time between other things so it takes a minute...

no matter i got enough information to see its pointless to waste my time with you

How about finishing it before posting? We're not having a vocal discussion, so how is it my fault you're hitting reply before finishing what you're typing LOL. How delusional are you?

[Nynax]

Spot on...
And the funny/sad part is, that at Blizz they are looking for new design and similar jobs non stop, but not one of them sent their resume to Blizz... Or maybe they did and were rejected because, "NO GAME DESIGN EXPERIENCE".

Yet, people listen to this sheep dogs like they are all mighty lords of game design...

Yes, "let me give up my lucrative youtube career in favor of being overworked and underpaid as a Blizz dev." They're critics and commentators, It's literally their job to be critical and comment and it's what they get views for. You can get mad at the "sheep" but if you get mad at them then I assume you also don't like critics of any kind; tv-show/movie critics, restaurant food critics, political, travel, etc. etc.

[Lolites]

If Ford sells you a car that has a poorly design transmission, you're okay with Ford saying "Well, you can't tell us why it doesn't work, and it's on you to redesign it"?

to stick with your metaphor, the transmision IS working, the feedback was more like "the transmision is not working bcs i have to change gears MANUALY"...
thats not issue, thats by design, you might want automatic transmision, but thats not an issue to be fixed, its design, and its your decision to either buy the car or not...

sure, if the feedback is masively leaning towards one side its smart thing to listen, but... we dont realy have that information do we? we know what VOCAL people told US, (and even those not unified) its not like we had referendum and 99% people was against and they still did it... THEY have (should have) some reasons to make the decision, not necesarily good one, but its not like they design by toss coin...

[Orby]

Why the fuck would any designer listen to the likes of Asmongold or Bellular? They have 0 game knowledge and/or experience.

Asmongold isn't even good at the game. He constantly gets carried by far better players.

So if you are not good at the game your opinions don't matter? Or is it that they are both also players like us that their opinions don't matter? Boy I hope you never run a company...

I may not like or agree with those mentioned either, but these people exist to be the voice that helps get out the opinions more broadly

[Yarathir]

People can call out bad game design without being game designers.
They can also make suggestions.
Then the professionals are supposed to take into consideration what the people buying their product say and use their experience and knowledge to improve the product.
Nobody is expecting them to take every change verbatim and put it in the game. Even if 9.1.5 is literally doing that with anima, souls, maw skip, renown/campaign skip and many other things people have been telling them since Beta.
But sure, lets blame the players some more.

Well, they've probably got eggs on their faces after they've been defending Blizzard's every choice since release and now the devs over at Blizzard have coincidentally changed their mind and decided to do almost literally everything players asked them to do that they refused to do during beta/before launch. Wholly organically, of course. Without player input or any desperation to hold on to subscribers. At least, such is the damage control.

[Relapses]

Well, they've probably got eggs on their faces after they've been defending Blizzard's every choice since release and now the devs over at Blizzard have coincidentally changed their mind and decided to do almost literally everything players asked them to do that they refused to do during beta/before launch. Wholly organically, of course. Without player input or any desperation to hold on to subscribers. At least, such is the damage control.

At this point, I'm certain you don't even know what the phrase "damage control" even means.

[Polybius]

Spot on...
And the funny/sad part is, that at Blizz they are looking for new design and similar jobs non stop, but not one of them sent their resume to Blizz... Or maybe they did and were rejected because, "NO GAME DESIGN EXPERIENCE".

Yet, people listen to this sheep dogs like they are all mighty lords of game design...

You don’t need GAME DESIGN EXPERIENCE to understand why you don’t enjoy a game.

[Relapses]

You don’t need GAME DESIGN EXPERIENCE to understand why you don’t enjoy a game.

You're completely missing what The Simpson's is satirizing here. It's not that you have to be a chef to criticize the food, or that you need to be a game designer to understand what good game design is. It's that each individual person is going to have a slightly different preference for what they want and if given the opportunity to design it themselves most players would make something that's perfect for them but abhorred by everybody else.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Usually its the .2 update when the "to all the X" threads start. At this rate we will be getting the "the REAL reason Y" threads by november.

November is bold, I'm saying this month yet.

- - - Updated - - -

You're completely missing what The Simpson's is satirizing here. It's not that you have to be a chef to criticize the food, or that you need to be a game designer to understand what good game design is. It's that each individual person is going to have a slightly different preference for what they want and if given the opportunity most players would make something that's perfect for them but abhorred by everybody else.

Or, to put the moral in fewer words.

"Everyone agrees Shadowlands (and WoW as a whole) is busted. But there's 97 different ideas people have to fix it."