To all the Bellulars, Asmogolds, Preaches, QoL'ers and Fans that want to Design WOW.

[Lolites]

Assuming Blizzard knows best in all things game design is a mindless appeal to authority fallacy.

but assuming players know better when we know from forums 99% of "feedback" is bullshit that would make the game worse is not better...

[Straga21]

Be careful what you wish for.


You're basically Homer in this episode.

Sometimes I think I have finally seen the depth and end of human stupidity, then MMO champ has a post like this and the search continues. People who have played WOW for more than 15 years see potential problems in the games desing -> people whose saliva drool out of their mouths while they play LFR cause pressing more than 2 buttons is too difficult for them: "jeez durh,,, look them asmonglods are totally like Homer from the family Guys anime, me so smart"

[mbit]

but assuming players know better when we know from forums 99% of "feedback" is bullshit that would make the game worse is not better...

The playerbase as a whole is prolly garbage but then you clearly have a small elite that does outperform the devs that does all the theory crafting and sets how everyone plays by creating the meta. Blizz even had forums where they invited elite players to give feedback but then blizz devs got upset because the players didnt praise them like the fanboys here but clearly put out issues doing the math as usual. So they recoiled and stuck to their ivory tower.

[thottstation]

The Sha of Envy is insidious.

And growing every day.

[Twelveplay]

How you people can sit through a Belular or Preach video is beyond me. Dudes bore me to death while talking and don't really say good stuff.
I'd rather hear feedback from pro players not LFR raiders if u ask me.

[potis]

but assuming players know better when we know from forums 99% of "feedback" is bullshit that would make the game worse is not better...

The people that do the sims and write all the addons and programs for that stuff, know better than the devs, not because of anything, because its simple math, and when 1 ability is better than the other, the problem is obvious, and thats when they should listen.

When 3 top theorycrafters/programmers/addon writers say "This ability needs at least 30% buff to be in line with the other 2 abilities in the talent line" and Blizzard responds "IT DEPENDS ON THE SITUATION, YOUR MATH IS WRONG" and the situation is 12 + targets for over 150 seconds for the abilities to be equal from Blizzard side, and they keep it as is then you get why the theorycrafters complain, when the math should be always based around things that actually happen.

And the math show something, then everyone is gonna play that something.

Players dont know better when it comes to content designed as requested for them to make more $.

The problem comes when theorycrafting and design for $ clashes together, and makes the game not fun, Conduits, slow Renown, etc, random legendaries and all the actual problems.

[Kauko]

Plenty of great games were designed by people with no design experience. In fact, most of the wow team had no prior game design experience before vanilla. Is it luck? Maybe, but a company like blizzard should know to take chances on newcomer insight, often referred to as luck. You hear about Google research all the time, but what you don't realize is that for each great research outcome, there was a hundred failed ventures by others at the company. But I guess running a skeleton crew of designers and "trusting they know what they are doing" is so much better, huh.

When did I say you can't design a game without experience? It is one thing to do it and fail and one thing to complain, be smarter as anyone about it and never even try it. Ok, Bellular is trying, at least he said so...

[justandulas]

to be fair, homer's first few suggestions weren't bad... and then after the flexible cupholder idea he goes off the rails with the bubble dome, multiple horns, and other crap.

but his first 2-3 ideas are basically a car with more zoom, and a more flexible cup holder. generic ideas but good.

then, hooo boy... and they went with that hideous lime color. also, $82k in 91 should have gone a LOT further.

[NatePsy]

It's like a Chef sending out a plate of chicken, I have every right to tell them it's overcooked and dry, that I can't consume that or enjoy it the way it's supposed to be. In this instance, half-baked gameplay isn't enjoyable and as a consumer I'm allowed to tell them, the devs, that I don't enjoy that and suggest they go back and change that.

[Soikona]

The Sha of Envy is insidious.

And growing every day.

I don’t think anyone is envious of blizz atm. I know I wouldn’t wanna be there right now!

[Lolites]

The people that do the sims and write all the addons and programs for that stuff, know better than the devs, not because of anything, because its simple math, and when 1 ability is better than the other, the problem is obvious, and thats when they should listen.

and im not talking about numbers tuning (which happens at least once a month) but about systematic changes...

i think artifact power its great example of player feedback, it came to existence bcs in WOD people complained they have nothing to do, so blizz came up with ap grind, and people complained they are forced to do it, so blizz iterate it (failed spectacularly in BFA) and make it 99% cosmetic only in sl with anima and now people complain that you are forced to grind, and at the same time that there is nothing to do...
THAT is the majority of feedback they get

[potis]

and im not talking about numbers tuning (which happens at least once a month) but about systematic changes...

I am talking about the same thing, many times the numbers tuning is because of bad systematic changes, look at Legiondairies, look at BFA Azerite etc.

Blizzard knows the 99% doesnt understand the difference, but they copy the 1%, they dont know why, but they know they should.

When the 1% says "Dear god, fix these things" which are all math problems in their majority, it ends up in a systematic change because the system is bad.

Dom Sockets are the latest example, why is the "Set bonus" on particular items, they were told is a bad system, the math says that if you dont get the sockets you do 20% less damage by default which sucks, and they went with it, and 2 months after, "extra items now have socket bonuses cause shit aint dropping for many of you, sorry".

[Lolites]

Dom Sockets are the latest example, why is the "Set bonus" on particular items, they were told is a bad system, the math says that if you dont get the sockets you do 20% less damage by default which sucks, and they went with it, and 2 months after, "extra items now have socket bonuses cause shit aint dropping for many of you, sorry".

to be fair its just a bit worse version of raid sets WHICH PEOPLE WANT...

[arandomuser]

yep, some feedback is good like let people swap covenents
but the " just remove all systems 4Head movement" is objectively bad imo.
they want wod 2.0 most influencers btw dont even play the game btw
bellular says he plays 2 hours a week and raid logs
preach said hes been raid logging
they are telling blizz to design systems around raid logging E.G "just let me only raid and thats it" so cataclysm/wod design

[Low Hanging Fruit]

People keep referencing this Simpson's episode as the fans being Homer and the business that lets him run a muck and fails being Blizzard. Mostly because Homer designs a really terrible clown car with the resources of a major company backing him which ultimately sinks and fails because of it. Well, what if the reality is Blizzard is actually designing and building that clown car and the feedback is to just give us a normal car? Then every expansion the clown car roles out, they fight on every hill to the death defending the clown car being great, the customers start to turn away from the clown car, suddenly a recall comes in and everyones clown car gets reworked to a reasonably normal car again? Because that's how I am seeing it.

I mean afterall the pattern is there. They release stuff people warn them against and they either ignore the feedback or actively defend thier choice. Then the ripcord is pulled time and time again. Just listen a little up front. Skip the bullshit phase. Save everyone including themselves the headache. It doesn't mean blindly listen to everything. It just means be aware of a certain current of feedback that's out there that is actually trying to help. It's a resource that's free. Use it. For fucks sake.

[arandomuser]

People keep referencing this Simpson's episode as the fans being Homer and the business that lets him run a muck and fails being Blizzard. Mostly because Homer designs a really terrible clown car with the resources of a major company backing him which ultimately sinks and fails because of it. Well, what if the reality is Blizzard is actually designing and building that clown car and the feedback is to just give us a normal car? Then every expansion the clown car roles out, they fight on every hill to the death defending the clown car being great, the customers start to turn away from the clown car, suddenly a recall comes in and everyones clown car gets reworked to a reasonably normal car again? Because that's how I am seeing it.

I mean afterall the pattern is there. They release stuff people warn them against and they either ignore the feedback or actively defend thier choice. Then the ripcord is pulled time and time again. Just listen a little up front. Skip the bullshit phase. Save everyone including themselves the headache. It doesn't mean blindly listen to everything. It just means be aware of a certain current of feedback that's out there that is actually trying to help. It's a resource that's free. Use it. For fucks sake.

legion was good but there was just as much negativity and hate towards legendaries and artifact weapons as there is now for covenants. blizz should just ignore complainers and look at their metrics
are people playing the game= good
are people not=bad
legion= good legion complains=bad
therefore make expacs like legion!
right now it is bad mostly due to lack of content which is seperate from the systems thing

[mbit]

People keep referencing this Simpson's episode as the fans being Homer and the business that lets him run a muck and fails being Blizzard. Mostly because Homer designs a really terrible clown car with the resources of a major company backing him which ultimately sinks and fails because of it. Well, what if the reality is Blizzard is actually designing and building that clown car and the feedback is to just give us a normal car? .

Its actually accurate but not how op thinks. Homer is not the playerbase. Homer is just a random guy hired and told to fix the company issues and he doesn't care about the customers - he doesn't listen to customers but does his own thing. This is blizz perfectly illustrated.

[Cosmic Janitor]

then, hooo boy... and they went with that hideous lime color. also, $82k in 91 should have gone a LOT further.

I think the dome shaped glass built like an actual windscreen, aka. laminated, would probably cost 10-20 grand.. I'm not even sure how you would begin to produce them as one single dome, in 91 no less.

[Pendragon]

Hahah this is a proper cope thread by OP. Anybody can design a game better than Shadowlands, so yeah I'm with all the steamers on this one. They'd make a way better game.

[Beastiel]

players don't have to know how to design a game. Most of these people don't claim to.

They just know what they don't want to do with their time.