You are being carried...

[Ehrenpanzer]

If you do raid prog but refuse to do M+ then you are being carried. If you are just raid logging and putting no effort into improving your character then you are literally a burden on your group.

I think of it like this - It's a team sport and you refuse to turn up for practice each week before we play because you think you are better than everyone else even though you are overweight and never score.

What does everyone else think? We have a few people like this in my guild and it really pisses me off. It probably shouldn't but it honestly makes me feel like giving up when some of us are throwing everything we have at a boss whilst others may as well be afk. I know, find another guild. I just do not understand people like this and how little shame they must have.

Then go find yourself a nice little tryhard guild.. Tell me you dont understand 99% of progression is learning mechanics and performing them correctly without telling me you dont understand 99% of progression is learning mechanics and performing them correctly.

[unbound]

I think of it like this - It's a team sport and you refuse to turn up for practice each week before we play because you think you are better than everyone else even though you are overweight and never score.

So, you are saying that there is no room in WoW for a group of guys who just want to play a little bball once a week? You can't play bball casually...only serious players who are trying to get into the NBA are allowed to use the local ball court?

[Raarr]

$10 says OP is a green parser

[ElDoorO]

Its mostly the smug know it all way he presents himself. He's speaking as if everyone has the same goals and because they aren't trying to reach his specific goal then they are a burden. Maybe the guild itself is ok with not being the best and don't require m+. If so, those players aren't a burden, the OP is just in a guild that's not the right fit for him.

While you're not wrong, it could also be the other way around. It's interesting how you don't point that out though.

A guild where 17/20 people do all their Mythic keys but 3 can't.

I think it's telling that many here don't consider this as a possibility as well.

In the end, in my experience, people like OP just go to a more progressive guild if, and that's a big if, it's only a small few not putting forth the effort.

It could be, for example, someone wanting their wife to tag along and she's barely keeping up -- but keeping up -- but also not willing to put forth any more effort. If you don't meet a DPS check or something, the issue falls on her and she's being carried.

Reason 347,668 why iLvl is stupid in Mythic and Mythic+ and it should be skill dependent and less gear dependent if you want to call it a competition or competitive. But I'm clearly the minority in that opinion.

But it's also possible OP is in a guild that just decided to try Mythic, did ok on the first boss and maybe second and they are only held back by the people who lack iLvl but clearly have the skill. That's not a fun place to be but that's the atmosphere Blizzard wants. They should, indeed, find a new guild or pug for a bit more to get further and then apply for a different guild.

The problem here is we don't know a lot and a lot of people, like yourself, make many assumptions based on your personal experience.

But this is why I don't think WoW is taken very seriously as an e-sport. iLvl matters too much and to even break the barrier to entry you need iLvl. This is why I specifically stopped Mythic raiding or doing keys higher than 8. I've since backed off that scene and dedicated to other games in my hobbies when it comes to competitive play where it's more fair and balanced and if you lose, you lost because you weren't as good -- not because someone got lucky or had better gear.

Still though WoW can be fun from time to time.

- - - Updated - - -

Maybe some of us aren't unemployed.

My dude, back in my healthier days my schedule was this:

4:30am - wake up, breakfaster
5:00am - gym
7:30am - work
5:30pm - gym
7:00pm - dinner
7:15pm - WoW (mythic raider at the time, prior to that heroic before Mythic was a thing, and prior to that 25m heroic)
10:30pm - bed

I did this for years. Literally the only reason I'm alive though (genetics fucked me, heart issues -- massive heart attack but being super fit was the only reason I'm alive right now).

The fact you can't comprehend someone able to work AND do other things AND game means you're probably just mad someone is better than you, most likely.

But it absolutely IS possible, if you're single.

Now that I'm married I probably could manage to pull that off 3-4 days per week easily, if my heart would allow me back in the gym. Instead I'm lethargic 40% of the time and gym saps me too much.

So don't think you can't. You simply don't WANT to.

[Boiled-Lobster]

While you're not wrong, it could also be the other way around. It's interesting how you don't point that out though.

A guild where 17/20 people do all their Mythic keys but 3 can't.

I think it's telling that many here don't consider this as a possibility as well.

In the end, in my experience, people like OP just go to a more progressive guild if, and that's a big if, it's only a small few not putting forth the effort.

It could be, for example, someone wanting their wife to tag along and she's barely keeping up -- but keeping up -- but also not willing to put forth any more effort. If you don't meet a DPS check or something, the issue falls on her and she's being carried.

Reason 347,668 why iLvl is stupid in Mythic and Mythic+ and it should be skill dependent and less gear dependent if you want to call it a competition or competitive. But I'm clearly the minority in that opinion.

But it's also possible OP is in a guild that just decided to try Mythic, did ok on the first boss and maybe second and they are only held back by the people who lack iLvl but clearly have the skill. That's not a fun place to be but that's the atmosphere Blizzard wants. They should, indeed, find a new guild or pug for a bit more to get further and then apply for a different guild.

The problem here is we don't know a lot and a lot of people, like yourself, make many assumptions based on your personal experience.

But this is why I don't think WoW is taken very seriously as an e-sport. iLvl matters too much and to even break the barrier to entry you need iLvl. This is why I specifically stopped Mythic raiding or doing keys higher than 8. I've since backed off that scene and dedicated to other games in my hobbies when it comes to competitive play where it's more fair and balanced and if you lose, you lost because you weren't as good -- not because someone got lucky or had better gear.

Still though WoW can be fun from time to time.

- - - Updated - - -



My dude, back in my healthier days my schedule was this:

4:30am - wake up, breakfaster
5:00am - gym
7:30am - work
5:30pm - gym
7:00pm - dinner
7:15pm - WoW (mythic raider at the time, prior to that heroic before Mythic was a thing, and prior to that 25m heroic)
10:30pm - bed

I did this for years. Literally the only reason I'm alive though (genetics fucked me, heart issues -- massive heart attack but being super fit was the only reason I'm alive right now).

The fact you can't comprehend someone able to work AND do other things AND game means you're probably just mad someone is better than you, most likely.

But it absolutely IS possible, if you're single.

Now that I'm married I probably could manage to pull that off 3-4 days per week easily, if my heart would allow me back in the gym. Instead I'm lethargic 40% of the time and gym saps me too much.

So don't think you can't. You simply don't WANT to.

Your numbers are nice, so is your personal story. But that's personal as it is.

This doesn't count for every person, I can tell.

I used to be raiding end tier ( hell I even got CE emperors in MSV ) but then life happened. I now have two kids, married and a full time job in the kitchen ( about 60-72h ). I can barely fit in torghast ea. Week let alone m+ AND raiding.

Every person has a story of its own. Don't conclude based on your own. Some want to but just CANT

[Pakheth]

OPs comment is a large part why i quit raiding, cause he's correct

I just wanna raid log and prog, not grind stuff i have no interest in

Same. It started with everyone having to do LFR(I even told my guildies to not do LFR if they didn't want to back in MoP and we still did fine) and now it's the same demanding shit with M+. I got better things to do than grind the same damned instance over and over on a terrible time limit with people who don't have patience due to said time limit.

[Hellobolis]

Yeah doing 4 dungeons a week to optimize your character more isn’t a huge time investment. It’s probably not as important now, because Blizzard fucked up with how many upgrades you can actually find, because of Domination Sockets, but I would still do 4 a week if I was playing. It’s not a huge time investment, and I would want to play with players of a similar mindset.

4 dungeons easily adds up to an extra raidnight worth of time. i don't mind doing that for the first week or two of the patch, but after that theres a reason i chose a x nights per week guild.

add in optional heroic night and suddenly your 2 or 3 day raiding guild has turned into 4 or 5 day thing. honestly you should just join a boosting community if you are putting in that many evenings a week so you get some gold for it.

[alturic]

Interesting topic. At a core level, I basically agree... and don't really know how others don't.

What I mean by that is, if the entire group flasked and fed and you didn't... you are hurting the group. If the entire group worked to get pre-raid BiS and you didn't... you are hurting the group. It's no different than picking all of the wrong talents which lowers your actual effectiveness over someone else all other things being equal.

Now, with *that* said, the absolute *ONLY* people this affects are the top ~50(?) guilds. After that, those few extra DPS or HPS are not going to make or break the attempt.

What I can't stand is people who think they are a good player but actually are more toxic than this mindset by saying 'I pay for my subscription stfu don't tell me what talents to pick, what gems to use, what enchants', etc. Stat-based games, it's always a simple best/worse choice. However, if your guild is casual and doesn't have any sort of expectations from members etc... all of this is moot.

[Hellobolis]

What I mean by that is, if the entire group flasked and fed and you didn't... you are hurting the group. If the entire group worked to get pre-raid BiS and you didn't... you are hurting the group. It's no different than picking all of the wrong talents which lowers your actual effectiveness over someone else all other things being equal.
.

nah. in almost every case it's the reverse. the group is hurting itself by inviting you and not setting/adhering to it's own standards.

[Zigrifid]

My opinion in this is that if the raiders come for ALL raids ALL tries and the boss dies then they do enough
Killing a boss doesnt mean "omg look how high i am on the meters guys", a mythic boss isnt a pounching bag that you can defeat cause you hit harder than others,most of the time in progress nights you have to check your tactics etc,dmg does play a role but the higher in difficulty you get the more you have to focus on doing the tactics correctly and the boss WILL die.
If 20 people go in mythic SoD with 240+ ilvl and just wank around the boss wont die but if half the raid has that ilvl and everyone perform their role correctly the boss WILL die.

[vsb]

That's true. Modern wow requires serious dedication. If some players are putting significantly more effort, that's not a healthy guild situation and it'll be resolved one way or another. Gone are the days of raid logging being an acceptable behaviour.

[Reinaerd]

While you're not wrong, it could also be the other way around. It's interesting how you don't point that out though.

A guild where 17/20 people do all their Mythic keys but 3 can't.

I think it's telling that many here don't consider this as a possibility as well.

In the end, in my experience, people like OP just go to a more progressive guild if, and that's a big if, it's only a small few not putting forth the effort.

It could be, for example, someone wanting their wife to tag along and she's barely keeping up -- but keeping up -- but also not willing to put forth any more effort. If you don't meet a DPS check or something, the issue falls on her and she's being carried.

Reason 347,668 why iLvl is stupid in Mythic and Mythic+ and it should be skill dependent and less gear dependent if you want to call it a competition or competitive. But I'm clearly the minority in that opinion.

But it's also possible OP is in a guild that just decided to try Mythic, did ok on the first boss and maybe second and they are only held back by the people who lack iLvl but clearly have the skill. That's not a fun place to be but that's the atmosphere Blizzard wants. They should, indeed, find a new guild or pug for a bit more to get further and then apply for a different guild.

The problem here is we don't know a lot and a lot of people, like yourself, make many assumptions based on your personal experience.

But this is why I don't think WoW is taken very seriously as an e-sport. iLvl matters too much and to even break the barrier to entry you need iLvl. This is why I specifically stopped Mythic raiding or doing keys higher than 8. I've since backed off that scene and dedicated to other games in my hobbies when it comes to competitive play where it's more fair and balanced and if you lose, you lost because you weren't as good -- not because someone got lucky or had better gear.

Still though WoW can be fun from time to time.

- - - Updated - - -



My dude, back in my healthier days my schedule was this:

4:30am - wake up, breakfaster
5:00am - gym
7:30am - work
5:30pm - gym
7:00pm - dinner
7:15pm - WoW (mythic raider at the time, prior to that heroic before Mythic was a thing, and prior to that 25m heroic)
10:30pm - bed

I did this for years. Literally the only reason I'm alive though (genetics fucked me, heart issues -- massive heart attack but being super fit was the only reason I'm alive right now).

The fact you can't comprehend someone able to work AND do other things AND game means you're probably just mad someone is better than you, most likely.

But it absolutely IS possible, if you're single.

Now that I'm married I probably could manage to pull that off 3-4 days per week easily, if my heart would allow me back in the gym. Instead I'm lethargic 40% of the time and gym saps me too much.

So don't think you can't. You simply don't WANT to.

Nope, i think you are twice as sad now. And no it's not meant in a sarcastic way.

[Rendark]

Modern wow requires serious dedication.

Really? Playing a video game for fun takes serious dedication? I'd hate to be in your guild dude.

Gone are the days of raid logging being an acceptable behaviour.

And the game is worse for it.

[ThatsOurEric]

Modern wow requires serious dedication.

This is honestly a really sad and elitist take. You should stop playing the game if you seriously think a video game
requires "serious dedication."

[muto]

4 dungeons easily adds up to an extra raidnight worth of time. i don't mind doing that for the first week or two of the patch, but after that theres a reason i chose a x nights per week guild.

add in optional heroic night and suddenly your 2 or 3 day raiding guild has turned into 4 or 5 day thing. honestly you should just join a boosting community if you are putting in that many evenings a week so you get some gold for it.

I don't know how long you're spending in dungeons, but it should be like 2 hours worth of time if each dungeon is 30 mins. Some will take more time, some will take less, but I'd wager the average is 30 min.

[odamienskii]

This is honestly a really sad and elitist take. You should stop playing the game if you seriously think a video game
requires "serious dedication."

and this is where wow has died the most, there is nothing to get seriously dedicated about, everything is handed to you for free with little/no effort

[Hellobolis]

I don't know how long you're spending in dungeons, but it should be like 2 hours worth of time if each dungeon is 30 mins. Some will take more time, some will take less, but I'd wager the average is 30 min.

30 mins per dungeon sounds fine. but how often do you do 4 dungeons in a row with the same people, while nobody goes on a break, and everybody actually puts effort into traveling between the dungeons as fast as possible? in my experience M+ has a lot more little delays and breaks in between than raiding does which adds up. (and god forbid you are with people who want to push keys instead of just farm 4 dungeons, then it'll definitely take at least 3 hours to complete 4 dungeons)

[Biomega]

I don't know how long you're spending in dungeons, but it should be like 2 hours worth of time if each dungeon is 30 mins. Some will take more time, some will take less, but I'd wager the average is 30 min.

The actual dungeon, maybe. But unless you're a tank or healer, getting into a group can easily take again that long, if not longer.

[DazManianDevil]

The actual dungeon, maybe. But unless you're a tank or healer, getting into a group can easily take again that long, if not longer.

Running laps in Oribos getting declined for 3 hours doesn't enter the equation doncha know? /s

2 hours for 4 dungeons in this day in age, if you PuG at all is impossible.
Even in my guild when we do keys, there's usually a 5+ minute break while 1-3 guys use the toilet, feed their dog etc. Averaging 1 key an hour in real time is far more reasonable in my opinion.
Not sure what the original point was equating keys to raiding, they're apples and oranges. Both involve doing your part and making as few mistakes as possible. Can you still time some keys with 5-12deaths? Yes actually. Same can't be said for Mythic raiding. In both scenarios you should do your best, M+ just has a different metric on margin for error.

I personally prefer raiding over M+, I know several people who like M+ over raiding, and that's fine.
In my mind, keys are largely brainless and rote, like raiding. Most people copy better players in both formats. Real ingenuity is few and far between.
Granted the highest tyrannical I've done is a 22 so I'm no expert, but I jumped in, did the damages and didn't die to dumb, same as any other PvE content.

To say one is hard while the other is easy, speaks to your skills as a player and your own preference, which is again, fine.
I know several people who can time 20s and 21s, but can't parse above low purple in Heroic raids. Apples and oranges.

[fruitbasket102]

[QUOTE=Ielenia;53368688]So what you're saying is that every single player who wants to do raid progression in WoW should behave like they're one of the main raiders of guilds such as Method, Echo, Complexity Limit, etc?

Because, by your logic, doing anything less than the top players in the top World First raiding guilds means "you're a burden to your group".

you make it sound like it's either be like top players or don't m+
people like always exaggerate things, it really shows you don't know shit