Class Skins would add many new classes and be a major draw for a new expansion

[username993720]

And yet you did reply instead of just moving on?

I thought you expected a reply.

Yes. Yes, it can. I'm someone who strongly prefers an actual class than "class skin", but even I can admit that reskinning classes can bring other fantasies fully into realization. A reskinned warlock class can fulfill the necromancer fantasy, as much I would prefer the concept to be its own class with its own unique mechanics. Sam thing with druids and tinkers, hunters and dark rangers, warriors and barbarians/blademasters, etc.

I agree with Necromancers.

I'm not allowed to comment on the "Big Bad class", so i'm just gonna .

As for Dark Rangers and Blademasters, this is not the case.

[jellmoo]

At one point, they wanted "Bull Rush" to be a Tauren racial. With Highmountain, they had a chance to introduce it.

I can only guess the same was the case for the Vindicar's Light's Judgment.

I mean, sure, I guess. I kinda doubt that they were chomping at the bit so hard (not even sure if this is a pun right now...) to give Tauren an ability called "Bull Rush" that they felt the need to devise a system to allow for Allied Races to make it possible. Seems oddly complicated just to get some shits and giggles.

I have to believe that their plans for Allied Races were complex enough that it made sense for them to go this route. Kul Tirans and Zandalari I guess were their end game. Because to that point, everything could have more easily been done by simply making the Allied Races additional customization options for the base race. I think that their desire to let both factions have both types of Elves really was the impetus for the construction of the feature. I'd be more inclined to think that their decision was driven by Faction and Race metrics rather than them building a feature based off of a pun.

...Of course this is Blizzard, so I guess I shouldn't discount the possibility.

[username993720]

I mean, sure, I guess. I kinda doubt that they were chomping at the bit so hard (not even sure if this is a pun right now...) to give Tauren an ability called "Bull Rush" that they felt the need to devise a system to allow for Allied Races to make it possible. Seems oddly complicated just to get some shits and giggles.

I have to believe that their plans for Allied Races were complex enough that it made sense for them to go this route. Kul Tirans and Zandalari I guess were their end game. Because to that point, everything could have more easily been done by simply making the Allied Races additional customization options for the base race. I think that their desire to let both factions have both types of Elves really was the impetus for the construction of the feature. I'd be more inclined to think that their decision was driven by Faction and Race metrics rather than them building a feature based off of a pun.

...Of course this is Blizzard, so I guess I shouldn't discount the possibility.

I think there's a reason why they chose certain races to become allied races while others were designated to be customization options.

I'll try as soon as you explain to me how Tyrande's mechanics would work as a WoW class without changing how they work in HOTS. Then at least I know the level of bullshit you consider acceptable.

Hunter's Mark
60 yd range
Instant
Requires Hunter
Requires level 7
Apply Hunter's Mark to the target, causing the target to always be seen and tracked by the Hunter.

Only one Hunter's Mark can be applied at a time.

Light of Elune
Heal a target for X Health.

Sentinel
Sentinel
Level 60 Marksmanship hunter talent
40 yd range
1 min cooldown
Instant
Your Sentinel watches over the target area for 18 sec, applying Hunter's Mark to all enemies every 6 sec.

Lunar Flare
Deal X damage and Stun enemies in the target area for Y seconds.

Shadowstalk
Shrouds party and raid members within 30 yards in shadows, providing stealth for 15 sec.

Starfall
Calls down waves of falling stars upon enemies within 40 yds, dealing [9 * (19.7% of Spell power)] Astral damage over 8 sec.

Trueshot Aura
Grants 10% increased melee and ranged attack power to all party and raid members within 100 yards.

Elune's Chosen
Activate to make your auto attacks heal the target ally for X% of the damage dealt. Lasts for Y seconds.

The abilities' other aspects could be added through talents and other borrowed power systems.

[jellmoo]

I think there's a reason why they chose certain races to become allied races while others were designated to be customization options.

I would imagine so, but we've veered very much off topic with this tangent.

The abilities' other aspects could be added through talents and other borrowed power systems.

So... Would this be a new class, class skin or a new spec? Because this is really just a mix of Hunter and Priest abilities.

[Ielenia]

I agree with Necromancers.

I'm not allowed to comment on the "Big Bad class", so i'm just gonna .

As for Dark Rangers and Blademasters, this is not the case.

It is the case. The concept fits the class mechanics, hence why they work as "class skins".

And I'll remind you: this is coming from someone who prefers standalone classes than "class skins".

[Triceron]

The abilities' other aspects could be added through talents and other borrowed power systems.

Then why couldn't you apply this same basic concept to Tinker as borrowed power supplementing a class skin?

Curious that you seem to think it can't work for adapting their abilities, but once I ask you to adapt a character you like, suddenly borrowed power is fair game even though its not a class mechanic and not something you would consider for a Druid->Tinker class skin at all.

You're not thinking critically when you are challenging other people because you haven't asked yourself whether other options would work. If you always knew borrowed power could be an option, then theres no need to ask us to tell you what you already are willing to accept as a means to translate HOTS abilities into WoW.

Besides, how would anyone know you would accept Borrowed Power as an answer? You would likely shut down the idea had anyone else suggested it. Reason? You're biased against ideas other people come up with that supports a concept you are not willing to accept.

The answer to any creative problem lies with you. You're going to dismiss any ideas other people come up with for changing things too much, while you don't consider your own ideas of adding borrowed power to incorporate class mechanics for Tyrande as being a problem whatsoever.

So now you have your answer. Borrowed power, since you've concluded that yourself.

[username993720]

So... Would this be a new class, class skin or a new spec? Because this is really just a mix of Hunter and Priest abilities.

A Hunter, a Priest, a Druid and a Rogue. Kinda hard to imitate with one class.
It would probably be a spec within a class. I'm still not sure how it would play out since Blizzard introduced the Night Warrior.

It is the case. The concept fits the class mechanics, hence why they work as "class skins".

And I'll remind you: this is coming from someone who prefers standalone classes than "class skins".

A Hunter cannot fulfill the Dark Ranger, just as the Warrior cannot fulfill the Blademaster.

More than half of these are already in existing classes, so not sure how you consider Tyrande as anything other than already part of existing classes.

So was the Demon Hunter's Metamorphosis and the Death Knight's Death Coil.

Thing is, i don't know what Blizzard has in store for the concept, since the Night Warrior is clearly here to replace the Priestess of the Moon.

[jellmoo]

A Hunter, a Priest, a Druid and a Rogue. Kinda hard to imitate with one class.
It would probably be a spec within a class. I'm still not sure how it would play out since Blizzard introduced the Night Warrior.

We're kind of moving into the territory of having some sort of gestalt class that is combining aspects of other classes. Either that, or we're moving away from classes altogether and combining class features to make a character. An interesting concept, but I think it should be in a dedicated thread rather than one about class skins.

Trying to build such a concept with a Class Skin, I actually think something approaching the concept could be done if transmog were opened up to allow for a bow to be transmoggable with wands. Then reskin some abilities to use the bow instead. Obviously wouldn't be able to cover all of the abilities listed, but thematically could handle the spirit of most of them.

[Triceron]

That's exactly what i'm talking about. The inability to actually apply it to a certain class. Is it a Shaman? is it a Rogue? is it a Priest? It's neither and all of them together. That's the base flaw of this concept. No one class can fulfill a potential new class. It would have to take a little bit of each of the classes' mechanics.

This is not a problem with class skins, it is a problem with class concepts that already have overlap with existing classes.

Shadow Hunter is one of these concepts. So is Warden, Necromancer, a Blademaster and POTM. They all have overlap. That means if they are ever considered as a new class, they would have to do what Demon Hunters did to Warlocks - Gut and take out abilities or entire mechanics from existing classes.

No New class can fulfill the potential of these concepts either because so many abilities and themes are already rooted in existing ones. You would need to rip out chunks of existing classes to fit a new class, then consider that it has to deal with balancing and new abilities. And pointing at DH, they couldn't even give it a full 3 specs, and not because of lack of creativity, but because it adda so much more to balance on top of everything else.

That is why a brand new conceptual class with a new theme like Dragons or Music or Tech would be substantially better for Blizzard to adapt as a new class, knowing that existing popular classes that have overlap really have inherrent problems for being added in the game _at all_.

What I'm considering in the thread is the hypothetical of adapting them into classes, and seeing whether certain things could be adapted differently. Not because I _want_ it to happen, but to see if it would be possible or acceptable. Because the alternative of having a Shadow Hunter class is going to be just as unlikely when so many of its spells and themes are already in the Shaman class, and Blizzard has seemingly no intention of making Throwing Weapons gameplay a thing.

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So was the Demon Hunter's Metamorphosis and the Death Knight's Death Coil.

Thing is, i don't know what Blizzard has in store for the concept, since the Night Warrior is clearly here to replace the Priestess of the Moon.

DH had to gut an entire Warlock spec to do so. I doubt thay will happen for other concepts in the future, since Starfall, Hunters Mark and such are pretty well rooted in their classes.

And Nightwarrior is already playable through black eyes. Blizzard has shown no intention of taking anything further than that. Tyrande is no longer the Nightwarrior!

[Prothall]

I first heard it from Taliesin.

Well, as long as none of you were actually thinking for yourselves, we should be all right, then.

[Polyxo]

This is a pretty cool idea. There already is some very minor differentiation with the mounts for things like Sunwalkers and Blood Knights for Paladins. Would love to see even more with spells and such.

[Ielenia]

DH had to gut an entire Warlock spec to do so.

You often show up to poke and prod at other posters when their arguments are not sound, but you should keep an eye on your own arguments, as well.

It is not confirmed that the warlocks lost the metamorphosis skill and had their demonology spec completely remade because of the demon hunter. That's an assumption. For all we know, the rework idea might have come first, and then the developers decided to make the demon hunter class a reality.

[Triceron]

You often show up to poke and prod at other posters when their arguments are not sound, but you should keep an eye on your own arguments, as well.

It is not confirmed that the warlocks lost the metamorphosis skill and had their demonology spec completely remade because of the demon hunter. That's an assumption. For all we know, the rework idea might have come first, and then the developers decided to make the demon hunter class a reality.

Whether or not it was the reason does not change the fact it happened, and that we do not have an example of two classes with the exact same ability and mechanics in play.

The example here is POTM as the next class, when most of her abilities are split amongst multiple classes. When someone is arguing that they MUST have those abilities intact with no modification, then we are talking about someone who is asking for those abilities to be gutted from other classes. THEY are saying the ability can not be adapted or modified, so I'm explaining what will happen if you DON'T adapt a new ability. It ends up being taken directly away from other classes that have it.

_I_ am not the one arguing that abilities can't be modified or adapted, so it would do you well to start from the beginning and read the context of the full discussion before cherry-picking my statements.

[username993720]

Then why couldn't you apply this same basic concept to Tinker as borrowed power supplementing a class skin?

Curious that you seem to think it can't work for adapting their abilities, but once I ask you to adapt a character you like, suddenly borrowed power is fair game even though its not a class mechanic and not something you would consider for a Druid->Tinker class skin at all.

You're not thinking critically when you are challenging other people because you haven't asked yourself whether other options would work. If you always knew borrowed power could be an option, then theres no need to ask us to tell you what you already are willing to accept as a means to translate HOTS abilities into WoW.

Besides, how would anyone know you would accept Borrowed Power as an answer? You would likely shut down the idea had anyone else suggested it. Reason? You're biased against ideas other people come up with that supports a concept you are not willing to accept.

The answer to any creative problem lies with you. You're going to dismiss any ideas other people come up with for changing things too much, while you don't consider your own ideas of adding borrowed power to incorporate class mechanics for Tyrande as being a problem whatsoever.

So now you have your answer. Borrowed power, since you've concluded that yourself.

It was a potential new class we were talking about, not a class skin.

We're kind of moving into the territory of having some sort of gestalt class that is combining aspects of other classes. Either that, or we're moving away from classes altogether and combining class features to make a character. An interesting concept, but I think it should be in a dedicated thread rather than one about class skins.

Trying to build such a concept with a Class Skin, I actually think something approaching the concept could be done if transmog were opened up to allow for a bow to be transmoggable with wands. Then reskin some abilities to use the bow instead. Obviously wouldn't be able to cover all of the abilities listed, but thematically could handle the spirit of most of them.

Who uses wands these days?

This is not a problem with class skins, it is a problem with class concepts that already have overlap with existing classes.

Shadow Hunter is one of these concepts. So is Warden, Necromancer, a Blademaster and POTM. They all have overlap. That means if they are ever considered as a new class, they would have to do what Demon Hunters did to Warlocks - Gut and take out abilities or entire mechanics from existing classes.

No New class can fulfill the potential of these concepts either because so many abilities and themes are already rooted in existing ones. You would need to rip out chunks of existing classes to fit a new class, then consider that it has to deal with balancing and new abilities. And pointing at DH, they couldn't even give it a full 3 specs, and not because of lack of creativity, but because it adda so much more to balance on top of everything else.

That is why a brand new conceptual class with a new theme like Dragons or Music or Tech would be substantially better for Blizzard to adapt as a new class, knowing that existing popular classes that have overlap really have inherrent problems for being added in the game _at all_.

What I'm considering in the thread is the hypothetical of adapting them into classes, and seeing whether certain things could be adapted differently. Not because I _want_ it to happen, but to see if it would be possible or acceptable. Because the alternative of having a Shadow Hunter class is going to be just as unlikely when so many of its spells and themes are already in the Shaman class, and Blizzard has seemingly no intention of making Throwing Weapons gameplay a thing.

Shaman barely scratches the surface of what it is to be a Shadow Hunter. What are we talking about? Hex, Healing Wave and a Serpent Ward toy? That's nothing...

DH had to gut an entire Warlock spec to do so. I doubt thay will happen for other concepts in the future, since Starfall, Hunters Mark and such are pretty well rooted in their classes.

And Nightwarrior is already playable through black eyes. Blizzard has shown no intention of taking anything further than that. Tyrande is no longer the Nightwarrior!

"Gutted". They had to revert it to what it originally was. Would you consider pre-Wrath Warlock as gutted?

Again, i don't know what abilities, exactly, a Night Warrior would have. They might retcon some PotM abilities.

Night Warrior is not playable. Don't delude yourself.

The example here is POTM as the next class, when most of her abilities are split amongst multiple classes. When someone is arguing that they MUST have those abilities intact with no modification, then we are talking about someone who is asking for those abilities to be gutted from other classes.

Again. Blizzard is revising the concept, so i don't know what their plans are.

[FossilFree]

Class skins>new class

With class skins they can make way more people happy at once. If they pick a new class, it will inevitably make some people happy and some people angry. You can pretty much shoehorn every new class idea into an existing class with class skins. Plus, customization options are all the rage right now, look at the response to character model customizations! People are literally excited enough to give them a pass on the bad expansion for it.

It's time for classes to get them too. If warlocks can have fel fire as an option, every other class needs a class skin option as well.

[Triceron]

.
Again. Blizzard is revising the concept, so i don't know what their plans are.

Er, the POTM concept has mot changed at all. Just because Tyrande invoked a completely different power does not mean all Priestess of the Moon have changed. Would you consider Sylvanas and Anduin changing every Dark Ranger and Priest to be Mawsworn?

Unless you can provide evidence of other POTM going through the same transitions, theres really no connection between the two concepts. They are two different concepts, and we're even shown this by numerous non-POTM, non Night Elf races in Shadowlands having been Nightwarriors in the past.

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Shaman barely scratches the surface of what it is to be a Shadow Hunter. What are we talking about? Hex, Healing Wave and a Serpent Ward toy? That's nothing...

Then the question is whether they actually have enough to be its own class.

Healing Wave and Hex are already in the Shaman class. Serpent Ward works like Searing Totems. Are you literally saying Shaman does not fit for Shadow Hunters just because Big Bad Voodoo is missing?

There are more similarities to existing class mechanics than differences. Even Monk has a lot of similarities in Windwalker and Mistweaver specs. What exactly do you propose as a completely new 3-Spec Shadowhunter that has little overlap with existing classes? You're saying a Shaman couldn't fill for a Shadowhunter, but at the same time you have zero concept for what a Shadowhunter class would actually be. You're arguing without any realistic concept for what you're actually arguing for. So yes, you are right that it is possible, and it is also unrealistic.

[username993720]

You can pretty much shoehorn every new class idea into an existing class with class skins.

Please, elaborate.

Er, the POTM concept has mot changed at all. Just because Tyrande invoked a completely different power does not mean all Priestess of the Moon have changed. Would you consider Sylvanas and Anduin changing every Dark Ranger and Priest to be Mawsworn?

Anduin is no longer a Priest.
And, yes. I would definitely consider Sylvanas' new abilities as part of the expanded Dark Ranger theme. Not seeing this is turning a blind to what they're trying to do.

Unless you can provide evidence of other POTM going through the same transitions, theres really no connection between the two concepts. They are two different concepts, and we're even shown this by numerous non-POTM, non Night Elf races in Shadowlands having been Nightwarriors in the past.

The PotM is the basic framework. Tyrande's Night Warrior is an evolved version of her PotM appearance. She still retains the owl pet, the arrows and the lunar abilities. It has just been developed into a more melee-centric archetype.
As for the other Night Warriors, you can see them using the same lunar spell Tyrande used.
And, since you have to be a devout follower of Elune to be bestowed of her powers, i can imagine they were Priests devoted to her.

Then the question is whether they actually have enough to be its own class.

Healing Wave and Hex are already in the Shaman class. Serpent Ward works like Searing Totems. Are you literally saying Shaman does not fit for Shadow Hunters just because Big Bad Voodoo is missing?

There are more similarities to existing class mechanics than differences. Even Monk has a lot of similarities in Windwalker and Mistweaver specs. What exactly do you propose as a completely new 3-Spec Shadowhunter that has little overlap with existing classes? You're saying a Shaman couldn't fill for a Shadowhunter, but at the same time you have zero concept for what a Shadowhunter class would actually be. You're arguing without any realistic concept for what you're actually arguing for. So yes, you are right that it is possible, and it is also unrealistic.

The Witch Doctor.

[Triceron]

P
And, yes. I would definitely consider Sylvanas' new abilities as part of the expanded Dark Ranger theme. Not seeing this is turning a blind to what they're trying to do.

Then apply the same to Tyrande. She was a Nightwarrior for the duration she invoked the powers and had black eyes, while she is back to being a Priestess of the Moon after they revoked her powers.

The PotM is the basic framework. Tyrande's Night Warrior is an evolved version of her PotM appearance.

Says who? Lore doesn't see it this way at all. It is such a dangerous version that it leads to the death of the users. It is an unstable form, and illustrated as being so in the lore. It is not just a 'class theme'.

As for the other Night Warriors, you can see them using the same lunar spell Tyrande used.
And, since you have to be a devout follower of Elune to be bestowed of her powers, i can imagine they were Priests of devoted to her.

We don't see ANY other Nightwarrior using any particular abilities in the game. I hope you realize this enough to start making a sensible argument.

Tyrande is the ONLY Nightwarrior we've seen using any abilities at all.

The Witch Doctor.

Which still has deep connections to Shaman and Monk mechanics through Totems and Brews. You were saying?

Honestly the only difference would be theme of Voodoo, and thats why Class Skin is being discussed. Mechanically, Shaman and Monk both have what we need to represent Witchdoctors. Jade Serpent Statue or Healing Tide totems both could be considered Healing Totems.

I fully acknowledge that we can have a Witchdoctor or Shadowhunter New Class in the game. Creating 100% new mechanics can be applied to any class concept, be it something niche or something new. I would even go as far as saying Harvest Witch snd Sunwalkers can be made into new classes with new mechanics, so that is where I stand on possibilities.

However if we are talking about the merit of Class Skins and how they could represent those class concepts, then the same possibilities apply, because mechanics are just mechanics and none of these concepts are actually playable in WoW. Since Necromancers and Shadow Hunters aren't actually playable, there is no standard to say *Shaman don't fit Shadowhunters* since Shadowhunters themselves aren't playable. They are blank slates. Everything non-playable is a blank slate. Anything you're assuming from HOTs or WC3 or your own idea that Blizzard would define some new form of gameplay is no different when applied to adapting something to a Class Skin format. Both ways, the identity of the class gets modified and changed.

If you are willing to accept a DH that has two DH forms that neither have a ranged attack like WC3 as still being a proper representation of a Demon Hunter from WC3, then it is going to be no different when we apply a Shadowhunter that uses 99% Shaman abilities. Conceptually, we suspend our disbelief for changes and adaptations, so suggesting a rigid format of not changing any Tinker or POTM ability in HoTS/WC3 for use in WoW is simply irrelevant. Its not like WC3 and HOTs Demon Hunter abilities were translated 1:1 into WoW either. Shadowhunter has even less unique gameplay examples in this regard.

[FossilFree]

Please, elaborate.

Bard could be a skin for rogues, blademaster a skin for monks, artificer a skin for druids, dragon knight a skin for death knights, warden a skin for demon hunters, necromancer a skin for priests, etc.

[Skayth]

I actually wouldn't mind this at all. We already know that a major amount of classes overlap with what would basically be the new classes, and then balancing is already a nightmare.

Sadly, I doubt they will do very specific ones (spellbreakers for blood elves) instead if they do them them for a single expansions I could see it being said oh all classes at launch will get one new class skin... and the. All then that promise would be broken (cough). And by the end of the expansion we would have them all incorporated.

Maybe in another expansion, sure race specific ones , but why bother blowing everything the first time? Haha no, keep em holding onto hope.