Fate of Afghanistan, Taliban resurgence

[tehdang]

I hate to break it to you but that's not true. The only good news is that there used to be more states that allowed this. Social check ups and services are underfunded and awful.

Any statistic you look up on child marriage in US show majority as I described. And if you mean “we do it better than Afghanistan” is not true, then I don’t know what to say.

https://www.equalitynow.org/learn_mo...ld_marriage_us

And other lies you tell yourself.

Big “this link says you’re wrong” energy here. Cite and describe.

[Easo]

So regarding Panjshir - while both sides still continue the usual bullshit claims, Talibs have entered it and are advancing. Couple of weeks left, probably.

But the guy on the TV told me all the hardware left behind is a non-issue because it's not like the Taliban know how to use them.

Reality, the Taliban sells off the hardware to militants or some regional power because the Taliban needs money.

I mean, it's just a car, even those heli's and attack planes left are nothing actually important. It was just it is ironic considering relations and history between USA and Iran. Even more funny considering Iran is not exactly the biggest fan of Talibs.

Taliban is Taliban.

But of course. They now definitely understand the term "realpolitik" more, though.

[Mihalik]

https://apnews.com/article/middle-ea...eb36e22bb72f42

Reports are that we have been evacuating old men with young girls claimed as brides. Lovely. Let's see if Biden says this was always going to happen while evacuating SIVs, LPRs, and citizens, no matter how well that was done.

If that happened, that's absolutely a problem.

Tho you can take your selective outrage and shove it where the sun don't shine.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/child-m...donna-pollard/

In the United States, more than 200,000 minors were married between 2000 and 2015; most were girls and more than 80% were married to an adult, according to data analyzed by Frontline

Technically speaking, those child abusers would fit right in with our domestic child abusers (protected by Republican legislatures under the guise of religious freedom.)

No whataboutism. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of the selective outrage.

[JohnBrown1917]

Big “this link says you’re wrong” energy here.

That was exactly my intent, thank you!

[Theodarzna]

But the guy on the TV told me all the hardware left behind is a non-issue because it's not like the Taliban know how to use them.

Reality, the Taliban sells off the hardware to militants or some regional power because the Taliban needs money.

Well, Iran has to practically do everything it can to avoid Israeli attacks and a US invasion and slaughter of its people.

[Draco-Onis]

Any statistic you look up on child marriage in US show majority as I described. And if you mean “we do it better than Afghanistan” is not true, then I don’t know what to say.


Big “this link says you’re wrong” energy here. Cite and describe.

What is your metric for doing it better than Afghanistan? We don't scrutinize it. My point was that the US has the same issue with laws on the books not who does it better.

[tehdang]

If that happened, that's absolutely a problem.

Tho you can take your selective outrage and shove it where the sun don't shine.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/child-m...donna-pollard/



Technically speaking, those child abusers would fit right in with our domestic child abusers (protected by Republican legislatures under the guise of religious freedom.)

No whataboutism. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of the selective outrage.

Remember that a 16 year old and 17 year old marrying 18 year olds get caught up in the "child/minor married to an adult." I saw last time this issue got brought up in a politics forum that the majority of these marriages are between teenagers and 18-20 year olds. That brings up more of a maturity issue with some caution of impressionability. Such an issue is a degree of magnitude from the mainstream problem associated with child brides; that of extremely young persons not 16+. Teenagers dating someone 2-3 years older versus preteens and early teens dating ten plus years older.

I gather this issue sparks a default "turn the outrage spigot on full blast" for people that want to see minors barred from any marriage all of the time. As long as the advocacy groups intend to capture, and enjoy capturing, high school juniors marrying a high school senior to buff their statistics, I'm going to apportion much less outrage. The child brides in sectors of Afghani culture, including some tribes and the Taliban, are an order of magnitude worse, and shouldn't summon the same level of outrage. It's very much like saying you can't be mad about access to food in Africa so long as a small percent of children in America are extremely malnourished.

What is your metric for doing it better than Afghanistan? We don't scrutinize it. My point was that the US has the same issue with laws on the books not who does it better.

As an example:

https://www.unfpa.org/news/former-ch...uring-covid-19
https://www.rferl.org/a/boys-with-br.../30106032.html

The cultural norm of engaging children to be married while they are before 13 is not mirrored in the states. 42% of households, 7 years old engagements.

But this is probably enough of a divergence into American political ethnocentrism from the topic of the fall of Afghanistan.

[Easo]

"On the ground" video mix of the evacuation from the Kabul's airport via the eyes of US Marines, has everything from the fleeing masses trying to get in to every day goofing to destroying the hardware left behind.

[Corvus]

So regarding Panjshir - while both sides still continue the usual bullshit claims, Talibs have entered it and are advancing. Couple of weeks left, probably.

Maybe, maybe not. The Taliban are throwing everything at the valley as they have a short timetable to win by. If the resistance can hold out a while longer then the snows arrive and that's it for the fighting season.

And the Soviets, backed by helicopter gunships, artillery and armour managed to push a long way further into the valley and even set up a base there but we're still defeated

Having seen footage of the terrain, it's a defenders paradise. Attacking would be difficult, especially as there is one very narrow, tenuous supply line into the valley.

That the Taliban did push into it is known, but there are also reports of the resistance blowing the pass behind the advanced units trapping hundred in the valley. Not sure of the veracity of the report but it would be classic guerrilla warfare of the kind used against the Soviets and the Taliban last time they tried and failed to take it.

[Draco-Onis]

The cultural norm of engaging children to be married while they are before 13 is not mirrored in the states. 42% of households, 7 years old engagements.

But this is probably enough of a divergence into American political ethnocentrism from the topic of the fall of Afghanistan.

Cultural norms have nothing to do with laws and their enforcements or lack thereof which are allowing these types of abuses to happen, I am simply pointing out that according to US laws those Afghans are not doing anything illegal.

It's also worth pointing out that several right wing personalities, politicians and evangelicals have defended that practice (Tucker Carlson, Chris Christie, Roy Moore etc).

[Mihalik]

Load of fucking horseshit that basically translates into having laws that allow 10 year olds to marry 50 year olds is A-OK because we don't really do it that often.

Dude, you're so full of selective outrage horseshit that it's amazing.

Child marriage is a pervasive issue in the United States with devastating domestic consequences. Approximately 40 children are married each day in the United States. Child marriage advocacy group, Unchained At Last, estimates that 248,000 children were married in
America between 2000 and 2010, and marriage license data shows that at least three states granted 12-year-olds marriage licenses and at least 14 states granted 13-year-olds marriage licenses during that period

https://childusa.org/wp-content/uplo...-in-the-US.pdf

Seriously dude. GTFO with the selective outrage bullshit.

[PhaelixWW]

Seriously dude. GTFO with the selective outrage bullshit.

The vast majority of those marriages are with an age disparity of less than four years.

There are problems, sure, but it's not at the level you're implying. It's also been in very significant decline.

[Cthulhu 2020]

God this thread is a shitshow.

GWB and his puppet master Cheney got us into this afghan war. Obama kicked the can down the road. Trump promised to get us out of of Afghanistan, and then refused to actually do it. Incidentally, Trump and his cronies dramatically reduced the number of immigration judges as well as overall just decreasing the amount of people working for federal immigration, making it so that any effort to evacuate was just going to take longer in general.

Biden ACTUALLY PULLS US OUT OF AFGHANISTAN and then all of the Trump stans who continued to support the afghan war until sometime in 2012 when calls to impeach Obama came to a roar and Afghanistan was suddenly in the holster as one of the pieces of ammunition as to why. Conservatives continued to support the Afghanistan war long after liberals had wanted to stop it. But again, let's be clear, Trump had zero intention of letting any refugees into the country over Afghanistan. We're fortunate that Trump didn't actually preside over the Afghanistan withdrawal or this could have been FAR bloodier. Ah but yes, that's engaging in hypotheticals. A weak hypothetical. Trump didn't keep a single campaign promise, so we could never have expected him to pull out of Afghanistan.

But yes, let's dump on Biden because people are dying. There was going to be blood in pulling out of Afghanistan. I wouldn't call any level of bloodshed "acceptable" but rather this is "expected" more than anything else.

It's just fucking hilarious watching conservatives whinge over this issue when it's their boys that lied to us to get us into that war in the first place, and it was their boy who failed to deliver on a campaign promise to pull out.

[Glorious Leader]

The vast majority of those marriages are with an age disparity of less than four years.

There are problems, sure, but it's not at the level you're implying. It's also been in very significant decline.

Three states granted marriage licenses to 12 year olds... so 4 year old disparity would mean either a 16 year was marrying a 12 year old or the 12 year old married an 8 year old. All of these are problematic. I'm gonna guess Alabama?

[uuuhname]

Tehdang several weeks ago: "there are people hanging off the sides of planes and falling to their deaths! why isn't Joe Biden doing more to get all of these people out safely!????"

Tehdang now: "these refugees are brining child brides with them! why isn't Joe Biden doing anything to stop this from happening!????"

like, it's so obvious he's full of shit that we don't need to bring up the US having child marriage laws to bring this to our attention. just point out he clearly is parroting whatever Tucker Carlson or any air head on Fox News is saying.

[Easo]

Maybe, maybe not. The Taliban are throwing everything at the valley as they have a short timetable to win by. If the resistance can hold out a while longer then the snows arrive and that's it for the fighting season.

And the Soviets, backed by helicopter gunships, artillery and armour managed to push a long way further into the valley and even set up a base there but we're still defeated

Having seen footage of the terrain, it's a defenders paradise. Attacking would be difficult, especially as there is one very narrow, tenuous supply line into the valley.

That the Taliban did push into it is known, but there are also reports of the resistance blowing the pass behind the advanced units trapping hundred in the valley. Not sure of the veracity of the report but it would be classic guerrilla warfare of the kind used against the Soviets and the Taliban last time they tried and failed to take it.

Fine, give it a month, at best. Times have changed. They are completely surrounded - there is no supply or reinforcements coming from anywhere. Not via ground, not via air, that means all their fuel is gonna run out soon and make their vehicles useless. Ammo will follow afterwards. You also forget a lot of forces here are the same ones who ran as fast as they could less than a month ago - not the best hope for actual resistance.
Plus, it's sparsely populated and Talibs do not give a shit if some civilians get in the way.

Also that defeat of Soviets is hiiiighly debatable. They pretty much did take the valley (low grounds) and sat in it until the withdrawal from Afghanistan itself. IIRC they never actually planned for total control over it, just enough so that the rebels do no threaten roads outside the valley (going to Kabul). Masud had to reorganize and rebuild his forces after each operation by Soviets, that should be telling.

But yes, let's dump on Biden because people are dying. There was going to be blood in pulling out of Afghanistan. I wouldn't call any level of bloodshed "acceptable" but rather this is "expected" more than anything else.

We can and we will dump on him for the way withdrawal was done. Like leaving the main army base without telling anything to the Afghanistan? Or absolutely failing to calculate how fast Talibs would take over, then having to urgently get few thousand troops backs to secure the airport. Yeah, "totally" not a shitshow.

[Breccia]

In the ongoing effort to remind everyone Trump negotiated with literal terrorists, Rep. McCaul [R-TX] told FOX News that six planes are being held hostage by the Taliban, unable to return their American passengers because the Taliban won't let them leave the airport.

Obviously a US Representative has access to way more information than I do, and I'm torn on whether to believe him.

One, he's a Republican, so that's a stumbling block right out the door.

Two, as I've said before, the Taliban want the US out so they can get back to murdering and subjugating the Afghani citizens without us around. The last thing they want is for us to come back. Are US citizens great hostages? Yes. But the Taliban are risking the thing they want the most -- us leaving -- if this report is true. And even if, say, there are other people on those planes who are the real target, the Taliban could just extract the Americans, put them on one or two of the six planes, and throw them out of the country. Problem solved (from their perspective)

Okay, but:

Three, McCaul is on record voting yes on this bill condemning QAnon.

Four, McCaul is also on record basically condemning Trump, saying Trump should tell his rabid fanbase to stop committing murderous insurrections.

So it's not like he drank the Kool-Aid and went back for seconds.

In any event, if what McCaul says is true, the Taliban is holding Americans hostage and Trump should not have negotiated with them. If what he's saying is false, he's still saying the Taliban are terrorists and therefore Trump should not have negotiated with them.

[uuuhname]

it was always going to be a shit show. stop fooling yourself and trying to convince others there is any situation where this would turn out differently. it's been clear to everyone in charge for the last 18 years that the Afghan army is extremely mismanaged and corrupt. same goes for literally everything else the US tried to do in that country, it got NOTHING done. the only one's who befitted from this are private contractors, Raytheon, Boeing, Haliburton and whatever child raping, opium growing warlord that took our money.

[Biglog]

it was always going to be a shit show. stop fooling yourself and trying to convince others there is any situation where this would turn out differently. it's been clear to everyone in charge for the last 18 years that the Afghan army is extremely mismanaged and corrupt. same goes for literally everything else the US tried to do in that country, it got NOTHING done. the only one's who befitted from this are private contractors, Raytheon, Boeing, Haliburton and whatever child raping, opium growing warlord that took our money.

Completely agree. Both parties have wanted out of Afghanistan for many years. Trump has plenty of Twitter posts demanding the same, and he signed Doha. Any soldier that had been there for a day saw that the ANA was this corrupt completely dysfunctional mess. So kind of like holding up something heavy over your head by yourself, the Coalition knew that as soon as they pulled out an ANA collapse was certain. But using the same analogy, the alternative was holding it up ourselves forever. Shrewd politically of Trump to setup the withdrawal date from Doha to be after the election, so either it would be too late for backlash for him had he not lost, or a landmine for Biden as it turned out to be.

That is kind of the political mess we have in the US. The GOP will use any legal, semi-legal, maybe not legal, dirty trick in the book to win elections and push their agenda. Gerrymandering, voter suppression, collusion with Russia, voting no on impeachment, declining to vote on impeachment after 1/6, Garland, Texas, etc. etc. etc. Democrats on the other hand are still playing nice like Congress used to back in the 1990's hoping for "bipartisanship", and they have not remotely caught up. Eventually the light bulb will come on and they'll realize the GOP hasn't had any interest in bipartisanship for 20 years. The Labour party in the UK seems to have the same issue. It's not going to happen in the US for Democrats under the current leadership, it's going to take a fiery new generation of leaders that understands the dirty games that the GOP are using and fight back. Either take the high road and nullify things like voter suppression that they are doing AND punish attempts to do so, or take the GOP misinformation, conspiracy theory, gerrymandering, voter suppression, shadow docket low road and play the same games.

[PhaelixWW]

Three states granted marriage licenses to 12 year olds... so 4 year old disparity would mean either a 16 year was marrying a 12 year old or the 12 year old married an 8 year old. All of these are problematic. I'm gonna guess Alabama?

A 12-year-old getting married at all is problematic, period.

Don't get me wrong; while I'm not going to get too morally twisted up over a 17-year-old marrying a 19-year-old, I personally don't think anyone should be able to get married before they're an adult.

And yeah, there's a small percentage of those cases that are just beyond gross, like a 14-year-old marrying a 74-year-old in... yep, Alabama.

But the practice is declining steadily everywhere in the US. There was a 61% drop between 2000 and 2010 overall. The highest rate of child marriages was in Idaho, and they dropped 67% in that time frame. The highest total number was in Texas, and they dropped 83%.

If you want to, you can read about it here. This is really beyond the scope of this thread, though, so I'm not going to derail this any further.