The Nemesis System. Why Hasn't There Been More Games Using It Since?

[Orby]

note: I am aware there was that trademark case where WB wanted to trademark the system. But regardless if we can try and adapt it or make something like it...

One of the last recent innovations in game design in my opinion was the nemesis system. Its a system I loved from the Middle Earth: Shadows of Mordor/War games and one that without it would have not have made those games slightly interesting to play. Yet its one we haven't seen again in other games outside of those games.

There have been other types of nemesis systems in games, I remember an MMO I used top play called Champions Online where you could create your own nemesis to show up unexpectedly at times to disrupt your hero PC. With that said I do feel there are plenty of game types that could benefit from that system. As mentioned a super hero game would be a great example, maybe with Marvel or DC type game that has a wealth of villains, have different types of villains that you stop and eventually one of them be your nemesis over time he will show up to stop you and occasionally make your life hell. Can you imagine if you triggered a lowly Z-list villain as your nemesis, you want someone like Magneto and instead you end up with lets say Paste-Pot Pete?

You have any idea where the system can go next, or why it hasn't been used in other games? Even if it has away of being adapted further so its not some copy-paste of the SoM system? You think we can see anything of its like again, even with WB patenting it?

[minteK917]

note: I am aware there was that trademark case where WB wanted to trademark the system. But regardless if we can try and adapt it or make something like it...

They didnt want to trademark those system, they did it already, its their patent effective until 2035. Basically its a waste of time for anybody to try to innovate it now, they are gona have to always care about having any similarity with the patent until then, risk being infringing on the patent then have to bother with the legal side of this shit. Nobody want to waste money on this, WB pretty much killed potential for people that would want to take this idea, because even if you manage to not legally infringe, you still might have to waste time and effort in a civil legal battle to show YOU did not. (Civil legal battles arent criminal justice, its not innocent until proven guilty or any of that other stuff.) So until 2035, you arent gona see anybody use similar system for the most part, except mabye WB (which is one of the worse publisher and you are unlikely to see that idea used for more then mabye a third mordor game lol).

Also for the record no, the patent is not just if you entirely copy paste the system. The patent is vague enough as in most patent should be if you wanna keep it inhouse, it had to be revised a few time, but eventually passed. Its to the point where if you wanna do a nemesis system, you have to jump a bunch of hurdle for little gain to NOT be potentially infringing.

So no, until 2035, i believe 0 non WB games will bother with this and WB are likely to use it once or twice at most until then too.

[Cosmic Janitor]

I mean if it's a patent you could license it, but that in itself is a major hurdle. Game development is aleady risky enough, buying an expensive license (from shit heads like WB no less) is already a major possible failure point before you even started with your game's core development. It's not like they sell you the system directly and you just need to plonk it into your own code, you can just make yourself one like theirs, so you pay them and still have to do your own R&D. It is just way easier to slap together some multiplayer stuff and let people become actual nemeses themselves. Also the kind of games that could benefit from something like a nemesis system and have companies with enough dough behind them pretty much boil down to Ubisoft's Assassin's Creed franchise.

Lastly, a trademark and a patent are completely different things. A trademark is for a name or symbol, a patent is for a way of doing things (in the broadest sense).

[dope_danny]

Why hasn't X mechanic appeared more?

Its always because the developers or publishers trademarked it. Theres tons of things Nintendo in particular used once, trademarked and never used again.

You ever wonder why no horror game does sanity mechanics like Eternal Darkness and has to stick to cod jellyvision and dutch angles? theres your answer.

[Kumorii]

One of the best systems created in a very long time. Understand why people want to protect it though, but it's a shame for players.

[ONCHEhap]

Once again trademarks, copyrights and IP laws ruin any chance at innovation

[Aliven]

Once again trademarks, copyrights and IP laws ruin any chance at innovation

Nobody stoping any company to innovate their own systems.

[loras]

Nobody stoping any company to innovate their own systems.

Contrary to popular opinion "innovation" is not infinitely replicable, nor is it desirable to attempt to do so.

You are familiar with the saying "No need to reinvent the wheel.", yes?

Faux-protective IP laws stifle progress in all the worst ways because of that, and their legions of lawyers and lobbyists make it so that questioning the way such things go is stifled severely as well.

[Amnaught]

One of the best systems created in a very long time. Understand why people want to protect it though, but it's a shame for players.

"Understand why people want to protect it" is a common sentiment from capitalist simps but its still bullcrap. Trademarks should specifically be for branding and logos, never innovations. Like I "understand" (literally) why Nestle wants to be able to buy an entire village's water source and then bottle and sell the water at a 5000% markup, but no one stands to benefit from a system that allows that. Not employees, not competitors, not consumers; only the one who called dibs. Trademarks like this one aren't just bad for players, they're bad for the industry as a whole.

[Aliven]

Contrary to popular opinion "innovation" is not infinitely replicable, nor is it desirable to attempt to do so.

You are familiar with the saying "No need to reinvent the wheel.", yes?

Faux-protective IP laws stifle progress in all the worst ways because of that, and their legions of lawyers and lobbyists make it so that questioning the way such things go is stifled severely as well.

Wheel was reinvented like hundreds of time since it what invented.

[Kumorii]

"Understand why people want to protect it" is a common sentiment from capitalist simps but its still bullcrap. Trademarks should specifically be for branding and logos, never innovations. Like I "understand" (literally) why Nestle wants to be able to buy an entire village's water source and then bottle and sell the water at a 5000% markup, but no one stands to benefit from a system that allows that. Not employees, not competitors, not consumers; only the one who called dibs. Trademarks like this one aren't just bad for players, they're bad for the industry as a whole.

Think you read to much into it. I understand, just means that. Has nothing to do with I think it's a good thing or that it should be pursued. Especially since I already mentioned "it's a shame for players". Pointing out it's a negative thing...
But sure, guess I'm a "capitalist simp". First time I have been called that. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[loras]

Wheel was reinvented like hundreds of time since it what invented.

And each time was a waste.

And also would nowadays be sued over infringement of IP rights.

[Aliven]

And each time was a waste.

And also would nowadays be sued over infringement of IP rights.

So you use the stone one everywhere, because the first time was best right?

[Lothaeryn]

So you use the stone one everywhere, because the first time was best right?

The point being the IDEA of the wheel is the issue here. If the original wheel was patented, wagons would not exist.

If wagon's do not exist, cars and trucks don't either, because they are fundementally bound to the concept of wheel based transportation. Each one innovating on the original IDEA of the wheel, not just the original iteration of it. Without access to the original concept, the other "innovations" do not work.

Without cars, planes don't exist either.

see the problem here yet?

Theoretically, each one could use something else; could we use decagon based cars to travel? sure as fuck could... And it would suck.

[Yriel]

It never worked for me. I usually killed my nemeseses (nemesi?) in the first fight, i think one of them managed to kill me and gained an ability once but i killed him next time he appeard.
The final battle was totally ridiculous, after this "here is your worst nightmare" speech some random orc shaman appeard that i had never seen before and i killed him in seconds.

Honestly, i'm not a fan of that "system"...

[loras]

So you use the stone one everywhere, because the first time was best right?

No, rather you keep using the stone one whenever it is the best, and use others whenever they are better.
The stone one will suffer and be outperformed by other options if it is used in situations where others are better, it will be phased out naturally without the need for such malformed systems of IP.

[Makabreska]

If you protect these kind of trademarks, get this: Namco in 1998 patented "auxiliary games" and other activities during loading screens, basically making them more than "sit and wait". Then they did nothing with the patent, blocking all the innovation in that regards for 17 years.

[Ladey Gags]

Wait, companies actually patent game mechanics? What the ever living fuck?

[Okacz]

If you protect these kind of trademarks, get this: Namco in 1998 patented "auxiliary games" and other activities during loading screens, basically making them more than "sit and wait". Then they did nothing with the patent, blocking all the innovation in that regards for 17 years.

Something doesn't check out for me. Like, Sims 3 had minigames during loading screens, and it came out during the period you are mentioning. Or did they have to buy some sort of permission from Namco?

[Makabreska]

Something doesn't check out for me. Like, Sims 3 had minigames during loading screens, and it came out during the period you are mentioning. Or did they have to buy some sort of permission from Namco?

Ye, I don't know the exact details, but the trademark was a fact. Maybe they found loopholes or bought permission? Assassins Creed also had you free roam during loading screen. Still, these were like less than 1% of cases. Companies nowadays will just (sometimes) invent good ideas, patent it to cock-block all the competition and then do nothing with it.

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Wait, companies actually patent game mechanics? What the ever living fuck?

Not sure if sarcasm, but we live in a world where smartphone producers patent round edges.