To all the Bellulars, Asmogolds, Preaches, QoL'ers and Fans that want to Design WOW.

[Relapses]

Literally no one has claimed players are always right. Wanting to keep QoL changes from X.3 patches to X.0 patches isn't a controversial opinion.

And who defines what is or isn't a QoL change? Oh, right.

[Elias1337]

Literally no one has claimed players are always right. Wanting to keep QoL changes from X.3 patches to X.0 patches isn't a controversial opinion. Especially when Blizzard will re-add the same QoL changes back in later patches, so why the need to remove them in the first place?

Becouse QoL doesnt make game better in many cases. Its just covieniece what takes away from mmorpg desing. There is always cost to adding more QoL and covinience. Like ruining social structure and community aspets of the game is one example what was rujined by covinience and qol. Only reason why you see some people like it is becouse some non mmorpg audience will awlays like things easyer just like they do in real life.

[ElDoorO]

As a programmer, let me be the first to tell you when a large group of people have similar complaints -- the odds are in their favor that something is wrong.
They may be wrong on the thing, but something is almost always wrong.

The core problem with Blizzard is for over a decade they've said "no, everything is fine" and people came at them with the math.. and Blizzard said "no, it's fine, bring proof" -- people bring even MORE proof. "no, it's fine" and then people throw a shit fut" Ok, fine, we'll fix it".

This shows two recurring problems. First is Blizzard doesn't listen. Second it Blizzard accidentally encourages toxic environments to get change to happen. Polite dialog is absolutely in no way the correct way to communicate with them if you want change. THEY CREATED THIS ATMOSPHERE THROUGH THEIR ACTIONS.

Then there's another problem -- they love their ego being stroked like they like masturbating. There's a reason they don't have a Blizzard supported Wiki or Blizzard supported store for addons. There's a reason you have to look up statistics to make the 'right' decisions. The fact that there are 'wrong' decisions for, say, raiding is a specific design of the game. The problem with all of this is they now need fan sites to be correct and need fan sites to keep people making right decisions. Whether through they don't know the correct answers themselves or they don't want to say the right answers doesn't matter.

Many things, such as DBM and GTFO should be build into the game. External tools such as WarcraftLogs and TSM (for AH or mailing needs) should be build into the game. Not everyone has to use them though but the fact that these tools are all but required is bonkers. Of course the mailing issue could be resolved with a simple all accounts share bank slots. The fact addons to help for missions tables that, clearly, they couldn't build into the game is a core problem.

It took GearScore getting heavily out of hand for them to do iLvl (which still actually isn't as nice but that's another story).

As a general rule, if you see people doing weird tricks or needing external tools for your program -- you have a problem.

That's not to say The People have the solution but clearly the WoW team isn't even aware there's a problem so they aren't even working towards a solution.

Then you have Preach and such. Here's the thing: Some people have more experience in MMO's or gaming than you do. This means they have more insight in what makes other games more fun or less fun. They may not always be right -- however the WoW team doesn't seem to even be very experience in other games of any genre really. This means their decisions come from a very narrow view and then if you add arrogance, bad juju comes.

For example, I remember reading one of the dev's say that games have to regularly change to keep people playing. That is objectively false. Chess, for example, is quite a popular game and hasn't changed much. DOOM hasn't changed much. TF2, CS:GO, AoE, SC... those don't change much.

One could, hypothetically, only do small tweaks to PC spells and then make patches and expansions purely about story and I'll bet you people will still play. Old school MMO people jumped into Vanilla. Vanilla is a different type of MMO than WoW is right now, contrary to what you may or may not think.

This means, and this is the hard people, you have to cater those changes to that different group of people.

Then you have the super tough question: Who is your primary target audience?

One might assume the one that brings in the most money (filthy casuals, amiright?). WotLK was the pinnacle of subs up until Cata came which temporarily saw an influx of new subs.. and then nearly destroyed WoW. It was a guild-killer. It was the expansion to make the filthy casuals go away. And that they did. And it's never really recovered since because, remember, prior to that sub counts were going up almost all the time. They weren't collapsing per patch. That began in Cata and onward.

So remember... it's not like the design team knows what they're doing. It's also not like they don't know what they're doing. It's just their field of view is very narrow.

To presume no one, other than the WoW team knows the answers is just plain foolishness.

- - - Updated - - -

Becouse QoL doesnt make game better in many cases. Its just covieniece what takes away from mmorpg desing. There is always cost to adding more QoL and covinience. Like ruining social structure and community aspets of the game is one example what was rujined by covinience and qol. Only reason why you see some people like it is becouse some non mmorpg audience will awlays like things easyer just like they do in real life.

Objectively not true. Quality of Life in a game is, by definition, meant to make the game better.

It's not always 'just' a convenience. It's things like being able to deposit all of your anima instead of having to right-click every single one.

[Relapses]

This really isn't the "gotcha" moment you think it is mate. By implementing those changes in X.2 or X.3 patches, Blizzard themselves acknowledge they are QoL changes. Simply removing them in X.0 doesn't mean those changes suddenly cease to be QoL, until they are back later.


It's not a hard thing to grasp.

When the QoL change you're referring to is an expansion defining feature, it's hard to justify completely neutering its purpose at the beginning of an expansion. Using SL as an example, had Covenants been swappable from the beginning a lot of the RP angle that Blizzard was trying to shove down its playerbase's throat wouldn't have had nearly the same gravitas. It's easy to look back now that we know that Blizzard is changing it and point to all the feedback where players said they'd be problematic and claim that Blizzard "didn't listen." But there was a reason they decided to release the game the way they did... and it had nothing to do with "QoL." They wanted players to experience the content a certain way and allowing the Covenants to be swappable from release would have severely impacted the way that players engaged with the content. We can argue about whether this design choice was effective (I'm pretty ambivalent to it myself) but it's still ultimately up to Blizzard to design the game they want to make. What you're really asking is for Blizzard to capitulate their design vision to players who will always favor convenience above all else. I don't think that's a particularly compelling way to frame the argument. Personally, I think we should just implore Blizzard to design less polarizing expansion defining features.

[Elias1337]

As a programmer, let me be the first to tell you when a large group of people have similar complaints -- the odds are in their favor that something is wrong.
They may be wrong on the thing, but something is almost always wrong.

The core problem with Blizzard is for over a decade they've said "no, everything is fine" and people came at them with the math.. and Blizzard said "no, it's fine, bring proof" -- people bring even MORE proof. "no, it's fine" and then people throw a shit fut" Ok, fine, we'll fix it".

This shows two recurring problems. First is Blizzard doesn't listen. Second it Blizzard accidentally encourages toxic environments to get change to happen. Polite dialog is absolutely in no way the correct way to communicate with them if you want change. THEY CREATED THIS ATMOSPHERE THROUGH THEIR ACTIONS.

Then there's another problem -- they love their ego being stroked like they like masturbating. There's a reason they don't have a Blizzard supported Wiki or Blizzard supported store for addons. There's a reason you have to look up statistics to make the 'right' decisions. The fact that there are 'wrong' decisions for, say, raiding is a specific design of the game. The problem with all of this is they now need fan sites to be correct and need fan sites to keep people making right decisions. Whether through they don't know the correct answers themselves or they don't want to say the right answers doesn't matter.

Many things, such as DBM and GTFO should be build into the game. External tools such as WarcraftLogs and TSM (for AH or mailing needs) should be build into the game. Not everyone has to use them though but the fact that these tools are all but required is bonkers. Of course the mailing issue could be resolved with a simple all accounts share bank slots. The fact addons to help for missions tables that, clearly, they couldn't build into the game is a core problem.

It took GearScore getting heavily out of hand for them to do iLvl (which still actually isn't as nice but that's another story).

As a general rule, if you see people doing weird tricks or needing external tools for your program -- you have a problem.

That's not to say The People have the solution but clearly the WoW team isn't even aware there's a problem so they aren't even working towards a solution.

Then you have Preach and such. Here's the thing: Some people have more experience in MMO's or gaming than you do. This means they have more insight in what makes other games more fun or less fun. They may not always be right -- however the WoW team doesn't seem to even be very experience in other games of any genre really. This means their decisions come from a very narrow view and then if you add arrogance, bad juju comes.

For example, I remember reading one of the dev's say that games have to regularly change to keep people playing. That is objectively false. Chess, for example, is quite a popular game and hasn't changed much. DOOM hasn't changed much. TF2, CS:GO, AoE, SC... those don't change much.

One could, hypothetically, only do small tweaks to PC spells and then make patches and expansions purely about story and I'll bet you people will still play. Old school MMO people jumped into Vanilla. Vanilla is a different type of MMO than WoW is right now, contrary to what you may or may not think.

This means, and this is the hard people, you have to cater those changes to that different group of people.

Then you have the super tough question: Who is your primary target audience?

One might assume the one that brings in the most money (filthy casuals, amiright?). WotLK was the pinnacle of subs up until Cata came which temporarily saw an influx of new subs.. and then nearly destroyed WoW. It was a guild-killer. It was the expansion to make the filthy casuals go away. And that they did. And it's never really recovered since because, remember, prior to that sub counts were going up almost all the time. They weren't collapsing per patch. That began in Cata and onward.

So remember... it's not like the design team knows what they're doing. It's also not like they don't know what they're doing. It's just their field of view is very narrow.

To presume no one, other than the WoW team knows the answers is just plain foolishness.

- - - Updated - - -



Objectively not true. Quality of Life in a game is, by definition, meant to make the game better.

It's not always 'just' a convenience. It's things like being able to deposit all of your anima instead of having to right-click every single one.

Yeah except magicaly auto depositing your anima doesnt make any sense from RPG stand point. This type of QoL reminds you that you just play systemic game and takes away immersion so yes even this takes away from game.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Objectively not true. Quality of Life in a game is, by definition, meant to make the game better.

It's not always 'just' a convenience. It's things like being able to deposit all of your anima instead of having to right-click every single one.

I mean he said in many cases. It's always a balance. There is quite a bit of psychology in the whole thing. You want some time investment to make it feel rewarding, but also not too much to make it feel like a chore for most things. Some stuff just doesn't have much on the sliding scale, like your example. On the other hand it also has/had downsides, like you couldn't even pick which itms you wanted to store, as it just opened the interface to store all of them. That can be annoying as well, but that just an aside.

[justandulas]

you don't need to be chef gordon ramsey to know when your food isn't cooked properly. You don't have to be a football coach to call out a bad play on 4th down. etc.

these people are correct in the critiques of modern WoW, and tbh, this current dev team are not a good fit for WoW going forward. They have stagnated the game, and held it back.

I'd rather have people with imagination and Z-E-R-O development history, than people with development history and Z-E-R-O imagination.

[Deneios]

Becouse QoL doesnt make game better in many cases. Its just covieniece what takes away from mmorpg desing. There is always cost to adding more QoL and covinience. Like ruining social structure and community aspets of the game is one example what was rujined by covinience and qol. Only reason why you see some people like it is becouse some non mmorpg audience will awlays like things easyer just like they do in real life.

How the hell does not removing timegates and arbitrary restrictions make the game better? How doesnt the covenant swapping make the game better?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0LTgNVwfMAE

Blizzard is Lisa rest of you are homer

[StillMcfuu]

One might assume the one that brings in the most money (filthy casuals, amiright?). WotLK was the pinnacle of subs up until Cata came which temporarily saw an influx of new subs.. and then nearly destroyed WoW. It was a guild-killer. It was the expansion to make the filthy casuals go away. And that they did. And it's never really recovered since because, remember, prior to that sub counts were going up almost all the time. They weren't collapsing per patch. That began in Cata and onward.

Cata had other issues other than the difficulty. The team attempted to do something new with class design and while Cata's design evolution lead to MOP and WoD classes which might be their best iterations, Cata's class design wasn't good and all the classes were crappy to play. When the main way you interact with the game is awful, it almost doesn't matter how good the other content is. Legion > SL have the same issue. Base classes suck and need systems to fix them. Legion had a hook with artifact weapons and leggos altering class play. BFA and SL (and largely early Legion was terrible as well) have fallen flat on their face with introducing systems to fix the classes and really Blizz should not be shipping a game with broken base classes.

Cata's other issues were bad zones and bad story and really a poor integration of story with gameplay... especially highlighted by Wrath where the main story weaves through each zone beautifully, weaves through all the dungeons and raids, and all things lead up to Icecrown.

But you are absolutely right, Cata did irreparable damage to WoW but I think it's difficulty isn't the biggest issue. Nothing about cata made you want to go into dungeons or go into the next dungeon, your class wasn't good to play, the story wasn't pushing you through the dungeons and raids, the fact they were difficult just hurt them more because people wouldn't do them just to do them anymore either.

[Elias1337]

How the hell does not removing timegates and arbitrary restrictions make the game better? How doesnt the covenant swapping make the game better?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0LTgNVwfMAE

Blizzard is Lisa rest of you are homer

Easly. It doesnt make sense from fantasy stand point to be part of all covenants and swap around like its nothing. Its actualy pretty simple. If you dont like covenants you simply dont like rpg games. People blame covenants like they are rason why so many people quit completly ignoreing fact that over 80% players covenants were non issue. Becouse they were not engagaing in end game. LFR, Crossrealm, no community, difficutly levels, power inflation, ruined classes, faceroll world content, absolote world content and more is what made people quit. No some covenant swaping.

[mst3kfan]

Many things, such as DBM and GTFO should be build into the game.

Neither of these should be in the game period, either in the form of an Addon or some sort of iteration from Blizz, and that goes for other similar addons. If you, as the player, can't be bothered to pay close enough attention to what you are doing, and not stand in that shit on the ground, you are the problem. The game already tells you every single thing that is going to happen to you. The dungeon journal explains what every boss ability is, and what it does. Hell the bosses even indicate when the abilities are going to be used. If you are to blind, deaf, and dumb to figure it out. Well I guess you will be moping the floor with your dead self until you get a clue, or not.

[Elias1337]

you don't need to be chef gordon ramsey to know when your food isn't cooked properly. You don't have to be a football coach to call out a bad play on 4th down. etc.

these people are correct in the critiques of modern WoW, and tbh, this current dev team are not a good fit for WoW going forward. They have stagnated the game, and held it back.

I'd rather have people with imagination and Z-E-R-O development history, than people with development history and Z-E-R-O imagination.

Actualy you do. If Gordons serves you food you have no right unleas you are at same level of knowladge of food to tell that food isnt cooked enough or if it is good enough. If you dont like food what Gordon servers you its propably becouse you simply order what you dont like just like players play gandre of game they dont like and trying to turn that game into something what isnt supostu be.

[Malix Farwin]

Is this the Hyperbole of the year? Imagine thinking that giving feedback = designing the game.

[Deneios]

Actualy you do. If Gordons serves you food you have no right unleas you are at same level of knowladge of food to tell that food isnt cooked enough or if it is good enough. If you dont like food what Gordon servers you its propably becouse you simply order what you dont like just like players play gandre of game they dont like and trying to turn that game into something what isnt supostu be.

Even Gordon fucking Ramsey can make mistakes and you have to have knowledge that eating fucking raw chicken is dangerous. Hell even the best cheff in the universe could be cooking chicken and i would still check if its pink under the sear.

[Ekis]

Easly. It doesnt make sense from fantasy stand point to be part of all covenants and swap around like its nothing. Its actualy pretty simple. If you dont like covenants you simply dont like rpg games. People blame covenants like they are rason why so many people quit completly ignoreing fact that over 80% players covenants were non issue. Becouse they were not engagaing in end game. LFR, Crossrealm, no community, difficutly levels, power inflation, ruined classes, faceroll world content, absolote world content and more is what made people quit. No some covenant swaping.

Fantasy standpoint no longer applies because a majority of players couldn't give a rat's ass about it -- many players play THEN get into the fantasy aspect of the Warcraft universe.

Nobody dislikes covenants from a fantasy standpoint (using your words here); they dislike that in order to be relevant you have to choose the RIGHT one, which from an RPG standpoint should not factor into your overall ability to play but rather simply change it (which is what they tried to go for, but failed at). Right now, covenants basically make or break a preferred style of gameplay, which again from a "fantasy standpoint" destroys the concept of "fantasy".

Sure, players are going to want to always min-max and that's not entirely the fault of the game and its design concepts. But by that same token none of them should offer any (obvious) advantages over another if that's an issue.

Also, if I may say, stay away from arguments such as "[for] 80% of players covenants were non issue". A significant majority of players don't frequent forums or voice concerns and a majority of the time you can only gauge whether or not there are issues by the retention of said players.

[Elias1337]

Fantasy standpoint no longer applies because a majority of players couldn't give a rat's ass about it -- many players play THEN get into the fantasy aspect of the Warcraft universe.

Nobody dislikes covenants from a fantasy standpoint (using your words here); they dislike that in order to be relevant you have to choose the RIGHT one, which from an RPG standpoint should not factor into your overall ability to play but rather simply change it (which is what they tried to go for, but failed at). Right now, covenants basically make or break a preferred style of gameplay, which again from a "fantasy standpoint" destroys the concept of "fantasy".

Sure, players are going to want to always min-max and that's not entirely the fault of the game and its design concepts. But by that same token none of them should offer any (obvious) advantages over another if that's an issue.

Also, if I may say, stay away from arguments such as "[for] 80% of players covenants were non issue". A significant majority of players don't frequent forums or voice concerns and a majority of the time you can only gauge whether or not there are issues by the retention of said players.

Yep keep that telling yourself. You can be sure that on 9.1.5. barely anymore will return and those who will will end up quiting anyway becouse nonthing you posted is reason why so many players quit.

[Ekis]

Yep keep that telling yourself. You can be sure that on 9.1.5. barely anymore will return and those who will will end up quiting anyway becouse nonthing you posted is reason why so many players quit.

Yeah because surely a majority of players play WoW because they're so invested in the fantasy /s

If you think players are playing because of fantasy/story (especially in the time of YouTube/Twitch where you can get the story without ever touching the game), I have some beachfront property in Arizona I'd like to sell you.

[Kralljin]

If you dont like covenants you simply dont like rpg games.

That's stupid extremism right there.

But let's take a step back.
Who has removed resistances (you know, a stat present in a lot of RPG's)?
Who has made Mana an almost irrelevant stat for almost every caster but healers?
Who has completely homogenized gearing (no more role specific stats, just 4 for everyone)?
Who has tried to for years to shoehorn RNG on top of RNG gearing systems into the game?
Who has homogenized Classes in order to pursue their cherished dream of balance for the high end spectrum?
Who has rendered profession almost irrelevant, despite previously being a critical choice?

The Answer?
The WoW Development team over the past 15 years.

All of those, are in my opinion, are very much RPG elements that have existed in WoW until a given point.
I'm not saying that Classic / TBC is the greatest (MMO)RPG ever created, but it at least feels like one in comparison to the modern game, that frankly, plays more like ARPG, where almost anything has to be subservient to raw gameplay besides their [current expansion system].

Disregarding that this whole Covenant choice doesn't make a lick of sense lorewise, the Covenants have always been allied, they simply do not allow a player into their Treehouse for [reasons] despite the fate of nothing but reality itself is on the line.
Blizzard could get away if WoW was different, far less gameplay focused, more focus on fantasy aspects with sandbox elements, where this whole Covenant business is, stakes wise, far lower.
But that's not what we got, instead we never received a solid explanation why those covenants are so damn pissed when you join another one, you don't even know why they covenants are pissed with you when you join another.

Take the Oracles / Frenzyheart in Sholazar Basin - you had to kill one of them to join the other, there it makes sense they're pissed, you willingly chose one of them to die in order to save one of their mortal enemies.
And there we just talk about two factions with largely irrelevant rewards.

The current dev sure as shit don't get play to the "champions of the RPG" card, when they frankly wrecked the RPG aspect of WoW for over a decade by now, especially as those covenants suck on the "RPG level" as well, the story / lore just doesn't sell this at all.

[Elias1337]

That's stupid extremism right there.

But let's take a step back.
Who has removed resistances (you know, a stat present in a lot of RPG's)?
Who has made Mana an almost irrelevant stat for almost every caster but healers?
Who has completely homogenized gearing (no more role specific stats, just 4 for everyone)?
Who has tried to for years to shoehorn RNG on top of RNG gearing systems into the game?
Who has homogenized Classes in order to pursue their cherished dream of balance for the high end spectrum?
Who has rendered profession almost irrelevant, despite previously being a critical choice?

The Answer?
The WoW Development team over the past 15 years.

All of those, are in my opinion, are very much RPG elements that have existed in WoW until a given point.
I'm not saying that Classic / TBC is the greatest (MMO)RPG ever created, but it at least feels like one in comparison to the modern game, that frankly, plays more like ARPG, where almost anything has to be subservient to raw gameplay besides their [current expansion system].

Disregarding that this whole Covenant choice doesn't make a lick of sense lorewise, the Covenants have always been allied, they simply do not allow a player into their Treehouse for [reasons] despite the fate of nothing but reality itself is on the line.
Blizzard could get away if WoW was different, far less gameplay focused, more focus on fantasy aspects with sandbox elements, where this whole Covenant business is, stakes wise, far lower.
But that's not what we got, instead we never received a solid explanation why those covenants are so damn pissed when you join another one, you don't even know why they covenants are pissed with you when you join another.

Take the Oracles / Frenzyheart in Sholazar Basin - you had to kill one of them to join the other, there it makes sense they're pissed, you willingly chose one of them to die in order to save one of their mortal enemies.
And there we just talk about two factions with largely irrelevant rewards.

The current dev sure as shit don't get play to the "champions of the RPG" card, when they frankly wrecked the RPG aspect of WoW for over a decade by now, especially as those covenants suck on the "RPG level" as well, the story / lore just doesn't sell this at all.

Yes they did. But they wrecked rpg aspects on altar of acessability becouse entilted casuals and nonmmorpg players wanted it. All those bad changes were made based on community feedback.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah because surely a majority of players play WoW because they're so invested in the fantasy /s

If you think players are playing because of fantasy/story (especially in the time of YouTube/Twitch where you can get the story without ever touching the game), I have some beachfront property in Arizona I'd like to sell you.

Yes in fact majority of players play becouse they want to see content and be part of community in mmo game. Content can be beaten withing few days and community of wow is pretty much dead. Players dont play for this boring esportish instanced content to beat timers. It was always small minority enyojing this type of content and are only ones complaining about covenants. Rest of playerbase has quit for completly different reasons.

[Ekis]

Yes they did. But they wrecked rpg aspects on altar of acessability becouse entilted casuals and nonmmorpg players wanted it. All those bad changes were made based on community feedback.

Yes in fact majority of players play becouse they want to see content and be part of community in mmo game. Content can be beaten withing few days and community of wow is pretty much dead. Players dont play for this boring esportish instanced content to beat timers. It was always small minority enyojing this type of content and are only ones complaining about covenants. Rest of playerbase has quit for completly different reasons.

You're conflating different things here. And I'm not sure you've gotten this, but I actually agreed with you (or rather, you agreed with me with that first sentence "...they want to see content and be part of a community" -- notice how you didn't mention fantasy here?)

This is anecdotal, but from all the players I've asked who quit (including myself), fantasy isn't what drove them to start playing and the story definitely isn't the thing that stopped them from quitting.

Social interaction and seeing content is NOT the same thing as fantasy. People want to enjoy the story, but the story isn't exactly what is keeping players engaged in WoW (if I recall correctly a significant portion of the community that still plays thinks the story is not that great). Ask your average player about the lore and I'm sure that other than current content they would not know. Heck, I'm willing to bet that beachfront property I promised to sell you that a majority of them have never even touched a Warcraft book.