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  1. #21
    I don’t really see game mechanics as becoming “outdated”. They can perfectly work in the right game environment.

    Bag space/ inventory management works perfectly with survival and horror games.

    Durability does as well and can be an immersive to people as well.

    Lives work as well. Would games like Pac-Man still work without lives? When the whole point is to get as far and as high a score as possible? You could remove them and dying once ends it immediately but then that would be frustrating.

    Then there’s ways to look at it as what the intended reaction and emotions the devs are intending to get from the player with certain mechanics. This can also come from the more artistic sides of games as well the psychological aspects that can attribute to the overall experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Josuke View Post
    Botw weapon system is fine, if you actually play the game you find out pretty fast that you get plenty of weapons and it makes you cycle through different weapon types instead of just sticking to one. It does mean you have to be a bit more strategic and plan ahead more, you cant just blindly run into every encounter.

    It only works in a certain style of game though, there arent any unique weapons aside from the master sword so if one breaks you can go grab another of the same item pretty easily.
    It's by far the least fun part of the game though. It's brought up as something that just isn't fun in almost every review I've seen for the game. Even if it's something the player can work around, it's really counter intuitive to add a feature to a game that the majority of players simply find unenjoyable at best, and can actually make them dislike the game at worst.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    Problem is, there are games that do everything you want, except they are simply a different genre than games that do require gearing up. Gearing up is another progression count that works in some games and doesn't work in others.
    Right. I want a raid sim I can play with my friends that doesn't necessitate a lot of life dedication to participate. I have the skill.

    I was a mythic raider in wow. I've cleared the newest raid on their newest difficulty (master raid) in destiny 2. I know how the fuck to play video games. What I DON'T have patience for is having to do some arbitrary grind that resets every patch cycle and makes me step through the same exact rat race again to "get my power up."

    I'm fine with new gear dropping, just don't bump the power/ilvl/whatever. Let me fucking raid without any prep.
    I guess you belong to the gaming journalists that want everything to be story mode, because effort equals QQ.
    No, I want difficult content that is difficult due to mechanics, not because "I'm not the proper power level" or "I don't have the right perfectly rolled set of stats."
    Last edited by BeepBoo; 2021-09-07 at 04:56 PM.

  4. #24
    Limited save slots / places where you can save the game. Used to be a memory restriction, no place in modern games.

    Not being able to customize your main character in a 3rd person pov game. I get Diablo 2 couldn't customize characters because it's an old ass game, but when we see modern D2 clones like Warhammer Chaosbane or Last Epoch I'd expect some form of customization but nah... too much effort.

    To that, I'll add games where you can't customize keybinds or with badly designed main UI and not able to use addons or any form of UI customization. One reason I appreciate SWTOR is their UI customizer where you can move parts around. Why can't other MMOs offer the same?

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by GR8GODZILLAGOD View Post
    Lives work as well. Would games like Pac-Man still work without lives? When the whole point is to get as far and as high a score as possible? You could remove them and dying once ends it immediately but then that would be frustrating.
    Pac-Man? That game itself is outdated. It became outdated the moment it moved away from coin-operated machines, and coin-operated machines are why things like limited lives exists in the first place; to limit your playtime and make you pay more. High scores, too, are just something to encourage to keep you paying for more playtime, so you can write BUM in the machine. Which is why I call the mechanics outdated. They serve no real purpose anymore, beyond very niche Ultra-Nightmare runs in Doom, which are not integral parts of the game in first place.

    You could, with little-to-no tuning make Pac-man work just as well, without limited lives or high scores.
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  6. #26
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    The holy trinity

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Josuke View Post
    Botw weapon system is fine, if you actually play the game you find out pretty fast that you get plenty of weapons and it makes you cycle through different weapon types instead of just sticking to one. It does mean you have to be a bit more strategic and plan ahead more, you cant just blindly run into every encounter.

    It only works in a certain style of game though, there arent any unique weapons aside from the master sword so if one breaks you can go grab another of the same item pretty easily.
    That doesn't make the mechanic any less annoying though. If there were ways to create and repair your own stuff, it wouldn't be so bad, but having to rely on enemies dropping new weapons for you to use constantly is annoying AF and literally every weapon you get in the game being able to break, including the ones you find in treasure chests, feels awful.

    I'm a huge Zelda fan, and I hated BotW specifically because the equipment durability system felt terrible.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Right. I want a raid sim I can play with my friends that doesn't necessitate a lot of life dedication to participate. I have the skill.

    I was a mythic raider in wow. I've cleared the newest raid on their newest difficulty (master raid) in destiny 2. I know how the fuck to play video games. What I DON'T have patience for is having to do some arbitrary grind that resets every patch cycle and makes me step through the same exact rat race again to "get my power up."

    I'm fine with new gear dropping, just don't bump the power/ilvl/whatever. Let me fucking raid without any prep.


    No, I want difficult content that is difficult due to mechanics, not because "I'm not the proper power level" or "I don't have the right perfectly rolled set of stats."
    This right here ^!


    Quote Originally Posted by Santti View Post
    Pac-Man? That game itself is outdated. It became outdated the moment it moved away from coin-operated machines, and coin-operated machines are why things like limited lives exists in the first place; to limit your playtime and make you pay more. High scores, too, are just something to encourage to keep you paying for more playtime, so you can write BUM in the machine. Which is why I call the mechanics outdated. They serve no real purpose anymore, beyond very niche Ultra-Nightmare runs in Doom, which are not integral parts of the game in first place.

    You could, with little-to-no tuning make Pac-man work just as well, without limited lives or high scores.
    While I agree with this, IMHO there are more outdated genres then mechanics.
    For example, I really don't understand how people can stil ask for strategy games. While I can see this working for a game like StarCraft 3, becasue it never went to a different genre/3D open world style yet, witch I doubt we will ever see in the next 10 years, since we saw how SC2 went down, I cannot comprehend to see WarCraft IV as a strategy game. I mean, in all my 90s and 00s' I would imagine a 2d platform game, a strategy game, a arpg game how would it be as a 3D world game. Then we had WoW, and it was exactly as I imagined it, purely GREAT. Why would you return to a obsolete genre and ruin a great game by making a Warcraft IV RTS ?
    Why would you enjoy a genre like turn-based action game, instead of real open world, multiplayer one ?

    I mean, for me, it feels like you had a horse and wagon for some years, while you always wished for a car, got the car and after some years you come back to the horse and wagon. Yes, it might be fun, interesting, nostalgy related, to take a ride in a horse pulled wagon, but we can see that the only ones that use them daily, are the ones that can't really aford a car.

    Sure, I've finished Half-Life 1 for like 30-40 times, at least once every 2 years, just because it was my childhood favorite shooter, but couldn't even end up Black Mesa that I've payed, or Doom 2016 that I got free with my GPU. Those SHOOT-THEM-UP games were great games for the times they first appeared, a great part of our evolution in gaming, but now, after playing WoW for 15 years, after playing only multiplayer games, looking at those single player games, they feel so empty, so scripted, so lifeless.

    While turn-based games like XCOM or HotMM or strategy games like SC, Red Alert, Warcraft, were made since there was no hardware posibilities to create a real immersive 3D walking/fighting world, I can get that for THOSE times, but NOW, when all this hardware and software is available to build anything you could imagine ... we still cling to "nostalgy" just for the $$$$ ?
    Last edited by Kel_Sceptic; 2021-09-07 at 05:59 PM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Santti View Post
    Pac-Man? That game itself is outdated. It became outdated the moment it moved away from coin-operated machines, and coin-operated machines are why things like limited lives exists in the first place; to limit your playtime and make you pay more. High scores, too, are just something to encourage to keep you paying for more playtime, so you can write BUM in the machine. Which is why I call the mechanics outdated. They serve no real purpose anymore, beyond very niche Ultra-Nightmare runs in Doom, which are not integral parts of the game in first place.

    You could, with little-to-no tuning make Pac-man work just as well, without limited lives or high scores.
    I fail to see how Pac-Man or high scores are outdated. Whatever the original intent was for implementing the mechanics, the mechanics still work. Getting a high score, even when not competing against other people, it’s still an engaging mechanic for many people for their own personal achievement. It may not be the type of game that appeals to you, not every genre does for people, but there’s nothing inherently wrong or outdated about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    Which one of those ropes can I hang myself with

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    Problem is, there are games that do everything you want, except they are simply a different genre than games that do require gearing up. Gearing up is another progression count that works in some games and doesn't work in others.

    And just like in real life, there is psychologically speaking a lot of reasons why there would be gear progression. there's more satisfaction when overcoming hardships. A sense of achievement, having earned the privilege. I guess you belong to the gaming journalists that want everything to be story mode, because effort equals QQ.
    The actual reason it exists is that it's a time consuming treadmill - filler content - to make you keep playing consistently

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post

    No, I want difficult content that is difficult due to mechanics, not because "I'm not the proper power level" or "I don't have the right perfectly rolled set of stats."
    Okay, now, this is much more specific than a broad stroke the way you initially mentioned it.

    I think gearing systems went overboard, when they introduced the item level treadmill.

    Allow me to take d2 as an example. It has itemlvls, it divides gear based on locations of specific ilvl and that basically means, that the area is harder and thus more rewarding. D2 is a power fantasy of the highest order. Gear is a part of your progress. You start weak, you grow strong, it becomes easier and easier to do hard maps, until you have basically reached a power status that turns the tables. Instead of it being hard to kill monsters, it becomes hard to kill you. But it's never impossible. It still happens if you're not paying attention, or when you get caught by supersuperfastfanafury berserkers on your way to Baals throne room. In short, you can still die if you're not playing well.

    Then comes D3. Most systems seem similar, but endgame is an entirely different beast. You never stop the gear threadmill. Gear has lost all it's meaning, because the entire meaning of the game is gear. There's literally a neverending cycle of upgrading your ilvl. You are never more powerful than the strongest mob and ilvl is the literal carrot on the stack, pulling you from rift to rift to rift.

    Both games use gear as a crutch of power. Both games have ilvl, but where D2 excels at gathering gear for the purpose of trying new colorful builds and classes, D3 focuses on farming a specific set and then the higher ilvl of that set.

    The same basically goes for MMOs. The focus isn't on the game, but on the gear.

    Even though I play Warframe, it has the exact same issue. Every so often new weapons are released that overpower the old content and new enemies are introduced to require that power creep, however, DE explicitly allows the players to overpower the content, for a duration. And ultimately, if your game play loop is good, having a gear requirement isn't a terrible thing, but a game needs to have a point where struggle turns into adaptation and adaptation into overpowering, to be satisfactory.

    Wow does this more blatantly by releasing new content much faster, to keep you playing by dangling that carrot, time and time again increasing that ilvl and keeping you busy, for the sake of busy.

    Reading myself back, I still think gear requirements have a place, in certain genres, but grinding gear should not be the part of the loop that is supposed to be the enjoyable part. The game play needs to be enjoyable, the gear simply a means to progress. Gear level should not be a gatekeeper, individual skill should. The gear you get should be the reward for surpassing gates.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    degrating items is a core element of survival games or games that wanna keep scavanging important even late game,kinda like dying light
    This can be done properly or not though. Fallout 3 did a god awful job of item durability. NV band aided this with the jury rigging perk and the degradation threshold that made this system 100x better.

    I am afraid a lot of survival type games tend more to the fallout 3 type mechanics than the NV one.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kel_Sceptic View Post
    This right here ^!




    While I agree with this, IMHO there are more outdated genres then mechanics.
    For example, I really don't understand how people can stil ask for strategy games. While I can see this working for a game like StarCraft 3, becasue it never went to a different genre/3D open world style yet, witch I doubt we will ever see in the next 10 years, since we saw how SC2 went down, I cannot comprehend to see WarCraft IV as a strategy game. I mean, in all my 90s and 00s' I would imagine a 2d platform game, a strategy game, a arpg game how would it be as a 3D world game. Then we had WoW, and it was exactly as I imagined it, purely GREAT. Why would you return to a obsolete genre and ruin a great game by making a Warcraft IV RTS ?
    Why would you enjoy a genre like turn-based action game, instead of real open world, multiplayer one ?

    I mean, for me, it feels like you had a horse and wagon for some years, while you always wished for a car, got the car and after some years you come back to the horse and wagon. Yes, it might be fun, interesting, nostalgy related, to take a ride in a horse pulled wagon, but we can see that the only ones that use them daily, are the ones that can't really aford a car.

    Sure, I've finished Half-Life 1 for like 30-40 times, at least once every 2 years, just because it was my childhood favorite shooter, but couldn't even end up Black Mesa that I've payed, or Doom 2016 that I got free with my GPU. Those SHOOT-THEM-UP games were great games for the times they first appeared, a great part of our evolution in gaming, but now, after playing WoW for 15 years, after playing only multiplayer games, looking at those single player games, they feel so empty, so scripted, so lifeless.

    While turn-based games like XCOM or HotMM or strategy games like SC, Red Alert, Warcraft, were made since there was no hardware posibilities to create a real immersive 3D walking/fighting world, I can get that for THOSE times, but NOW, when all this hardware and software is available to build anything you could imagine ... we still cling to "nostalgy" just for the $$$$ ?
    Uhhhh...

    No.

    I don't see a single genre that is outdated. Some sell better than others, but that doesn't mean they are outdated.

    You bring Starcraft 2 as an example. Starcraft 2 used to be absolutely huge. But the combination of Blizzard not taking the Esports very seriously at the start (and applying lessons learned to their other games, namely Overwatch), and certain matchfixing drama in South Korea that made sponsors disappear, handicapped the game. But saying "I don't understand how people still ask for strategy games" is just pure ignorance. People love that shit. Myself included. Hell, I just finished playing some Supreme Commander, myself, and followed that with watching some Starcraft 2 games (Thanks Lowko).

    And then there are the other Strategy games.

    The Civilization series.

    The Grand strategy games from Paradox.

    And tons and tons of others, which are hugely popular. You might not like it, but they are anything but "outdated". Absolutely nobody asked for a limited life system for Super Mario. People absolutely ask for Strategy games of all kinds.

    And let's talk about shooters.

    I still play Doom 2 (have mentioned it a few times in these forums before). Because the mechanics of the game still hold up, as is evident by the very healthy modding and mapping community. And the old boomer shooters, as they are called, are still quite profitable, as can be plainly seen by the revival of the Doom series. Yeah, I don't really enjoy the newer iterations that much either. They were fun to play through once or twice, but the added complexities made it more annoying than enjoyable.

    Just... stop. You not enjoying something doesn't mean it's outdated.
    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    And again, let’s presume equity in schools is achievable. Then why should a parent read to a child?

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Right. I want a raid sim I can play with my friends that doesn't necessitate a lot of life dedication to participate. I have the skill.

    I was a mythic raider in wow. I've cleared the newest raid on their newest difficulty (master raid) in destiny 2. I know how the fuck to play video games. What I DON'T have patience for is having to do some arbitrary grind that resets every patch cycle and makes me step through the same exact rat race again to "get my power up."

    I'm fine with new gear dropping, just don't bump the power/ilvl/whatever. Let me fucking raid without any prep.


    No, I want difficult content that is difficult due to mechanics, not because "I'm not the proper power level" or "I don't have the right perfectly rolled set of stats."
    Fucking fr bruh this game sucks tiny nails for how much work you have to put in to enjoy what many of us enjoy the most. It's disgusting how much time you have to invest in it in order to participate. It's unhealthy towards any normal progress in life even if you do so casually.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Josuke View Post
    You don't need to rely on enemies to drop them for you, they're scattered everywhere. Once you learn the spawns you can farm them super easily, but you dont have to.
    It's still annoying to have to go and find weapons regardless of where they're found.

    Repairing them would be nice, and there is a way to do it, but it's not intentional.

    The master sword doesnt break? The ones you find in chests arent unique though, they're usually from a tier up though.
    The master sword doesn't "break" but it does become unusable for ~10 minutes. Which is pretty significant considering you can find weapons quicker than that. So yeah, it "breaks" then repairs itself after ~10 minutes. That's ridiculous.

    You hated the entire game because of weapon durability?
    Yes, that system affected my enjoyment of the entire game, and I hated it.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by unfilteredJW View Post
    Time limits.
    how is that outdated, that's the precise innovation that makes all those shrinking circle games so popular.

  17. #37
    Dialogue options that have zero effect of the outcome or provide information. I've played rpg games where I choose a declining dialogue yet it still plays out where I have to do the task in question.

    Meaningless collectibles. It was one of my gripes with the explosion of open world games where the only way devs provide meaning to exploring the world are some sprinkled icons on the map that provide nothing beyond achievement points.
    The wise wolf who's pride is her wisdom isn't so sharp as drunk.

  18. #38
    Levelling is never done right nowadays. It's just a continuous escalation of numbers all around, but since the enemies are scaled/tuned for your level, you never feel more powerful. Mind as well get rid of levels altogether.

    Gear treadmill. Back in the D&D days, getting a +2 strength chestpiece was a big deal. Even better if it had an enchant that reflected arrows back towards the attacker. Nowadays you mindlessly throw out your +1492 int cloak and equip a +1511 int cloak. Brrr. Mind as well get rid of it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    Durability. There is not a single game that gets better with degrading items.
    Also this. Durability only ever made sense during the early days of WoW to keep people from slamming their heads against their keyboards in frustration after wiping for 2 hours straight on a boss. You had to step out of the raid to repair your armor, which naturally meant taking a break. It prevented people from ragequiting the game. But now you can just summon a gnome inside the raid to repair your armor (or just hearth home and get lock summoned back in 30 seconds), so now it doesn't even serve the purpose it once did.

  19. #39
    Unavoidable damage in rpgs. After having played Dark Sous for ages I just cannot stand mob/boss mechanics with unavoidable damage anymore.

    You should be able to choose to mitigate it, outheal it or outdamage it, but you should also be able to choose not to take the damage.

    I know that in party games this could lead to trivial fights, but I just can’t stand this WoW’s mechanism anymore.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    Limited save slots / places where you can save the game. Used to be a memory restriction, no place in modern games.
    This. Only being able to save in Kingdom Come Deliverance by using a highly limited potion (Saviour Schnaps) was infuriating. Sandbox games where there are different possibilities and lots of things that can go wrong practically require save scumming. I don't know what the devs were thinking on that one.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by unfilteredJW View Post
    Time limits.
    Makes sense when used right, such as to increase the tension on the player during a story moment (ie, in FF9 when you're racing back to Alexandria to save Garnet before she is executed, or in the Burning of Teldrassil when you're given 3 minutes to save 900 people). It has also been used well in long term campaigns to force the player to prioritize their goals (in the old Atelier games, you run an alchemist shop but if you don't do your jobs on time then you'll lose your license and have to close up shop).

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