1. #72801
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    It’s got me curious since it’ll likely be a train wreck, but I can’t justify giving money to the Trumps.
    No need to pay. There will most definitely people recording it and putting it on Youtube or some other website. Not sure if I can justify my ears being assaulted by his voice.

  2. #72802
    B-b-but muh racist participation trophies!

  3. #72803
    Numbers still haven't settled so I'll continue to forgo the full report and just point out some lowlights.

    157,759 new cases; 1,700 deaths, bringing the total to 671,183. Technically it was actually over 2k if you add in Florida's real total instead of the 6 they reported, but I'm trying to remain consistent even if they aren't.

    Texas posted 22,796 new cases which put them in the top spot, but again numbers will still take some time to shake out. We saw the totals starting to flatten out nationally last week and there's a good chance that's continued--for some states; others aren't faring as well.

    Related news:

    Child Covid-19 hospitalizations hit a record high as schools reopen--Sooooo maybe the downward trend in cases will be short-lived.

    White House signals new COVID-19 measures coming for unvaccinated Americans--The full announcement will be happening today, but I think it's a safe bet the anti-vaxx crowd is going to go ballistic. Bring popcorn. And masks.

    Stay safe, folks.

  4. #72804
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Since you're likely seeing the memes/misleading FB posts by now, let's get ahead of this.

    PolitiFact has gotten hold of some posts with faux outrage about journalists calling ivermectin a horse dewormer, and pointing out it won the Nobel Prize in 2015. This...is kind of true. Avermectin won, and ivermectin is a kind of avermectin. Avermectin was effective in the world's poorest countries stopping some nasty parasitic infections like River Blindness, and is approved in the US by the FDA in tablet form for other parasitic infections as well. It is actually prescribed for real afflictions by real doctors.

    It is also used as a horse dewormer. That statement is factual. Obviously the dosage is different. So labeling it as a horse dewormer is 100% accurate. People taking the version of the drug rated for livestock are, yes, taking horse dewormer.

    Avermectin drugs are anti-parasitics. They are not designed to go after something as small as a virus. To put it another way: some parasites are passed along by mosquito bites, and that means they pass through the proboscis. This means they're 10µm or so. By contrast, a virus' size is in the order of 10 nm, which is three orders of magnitude off. Even with some generous wiggle room, we're talking the difference between the size of a mosquito, and the size of a Canada goose. It's oversimplifying the medicine, but you would have as much luck killing a Canada goose with a flyswatter as you would killing a mosquito by firing a shotgun at it. In one version, you get an interesting version of Untitled Goose Game in which you're one of the hapless NPC targets. In the other, you end up blowing holes in the walls of your house.

    Except, in this analogy, your liver is the house. Plus if you're using horse dewormer (yes the livestock strength) you're automatically firing five shells, even if you think you got the mosquito with the first one, because horses weigh five times more than humans (or more).

    There's another way to think about this. Nitroglycerine can be used when a patient has chest pain due to insufficient blood to the heart. It is also used to make dynamite. It's 100% fair to say it's in both -- the rest is in the context aka other ingredients and dosage. Yes, I used the Nobel Prize to drive that parallel home. It reminds me of the "there's mercury in MMR vaccines" argument, or "there's titanium in white paint" argument. Yes, the element is in there. No, it's not in there in its base form. Your house's walls are not shotgun-proof just because you used white primer.

    Just because nitroglycerine is an FDA approved drug and/or just because it's got Nobel's name on it doesn't mean it can be used to treat COVID, of course. Neither is ivermectin. There are currently no credible, large-scale studies saying that it helps -- the FDA, the AMA, the WHO and basically every large-scale medical org on the planet are all in agreement on this one.

    Technically you could treat COVID with dynamite -- in that the patient would not have COVID symptoms anymore. Bonus, they'd also be less worried about the holes in their house from using a shotgun to kill a mosquito.

    And before anyone asks "well there are studies that show promise, so maybe take the medicine with the same confidence as people took the vaccine when it wasn't FDA approved yet?" there are three easy counterarguments.
    1) The vaccines we're using now were given extensive study and at least emergency certification months ago. Ivermectin currently has neither and has no timeline for such.
    2) Even if that wasn't true, various forms of COVID have been studies for about 20 years. The vaccine had a head start. There are not 20 years of study for ivermectin for treating COVID. I'm not sure there are 20 weeks of study.
    3) And if, past all that, you're that willing to get in on a treatment that shows promise early even if the data isn't in yet, you would have gotten the vaccine months ago. Unless you're immunocompromised, which no, the people pushing for horse dewormer are not. They're just infocompromised.

    When the large-scale peer-reviewed studies come in that say "ivermectin helps" we can have this discussion again. Until that happens, listen to your doctor more than the guy selling pillows on basic cable, don't take horse dewormer and put the damn shotgun down in the house unless you're actually being attacked by geese.

    For more information, consult the FDA's many cited sources on the subject.

  5. #72805
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Since you're likely seeing the memes/misleading FB posts by now, let's get ahead of this.

    PolitiFact has gotten hold of some posts with faux outrage about journalists calling ivermectin a horse dewormer, and pointing out it won the Nobel Prize in 2015. This...is kind of true. Avermectin won, and ivermectin is a kind of avermectin. Avermectin was effective in the world's poorest countries stopping some nasty parasitic infections like River Blindness, and is approved in the US by the FDA in tablet form for other parasitic infections as well. It is actually prescribed for real afflictions by real doctors.

    It is also used as a horse dewormer. That statement is factual. Obviously the dosage is different. So labeling it as a horse dewormer is 100% accurate. People taking the version of the drug rated for livestock are, yes, taking horse dewormer.

    Avermectin drugs are anti-parasitics. They are not designed to go after something as small as a virus. To put it another way: some parasites are passed along by mosquito bites, and that means they pass through the proboscis. This means they're 10µm or so. By contrast, a virus' size is in the order of 10 nm, which is three orders of magnitude off. Even with some generous wiggle room, we're talking the difference between the size of a mosquito, and the size of a Canada goose. It's oversimplifying the medicine, but you would have as much luck killing a Canada goose with a flyswatter as you would killing a mosquito by firing a shotgun at it. In one version, you get an interesting version of Untitled Goose Game in which you're one of the hapless NPC targets. In the other, you end up blowing holes in the walls of your house.

    Except, in this analogy, your liver is the house. Plus if you're using horse dewormer (yes the livestock strength) you're automatically firing five shells, even if you think you got the mosquito with the first one, because horses weigh five times more than humans (or more).

    There's another way to think about this. Nitroglycerine can be used when a patient has chest pain due to insufficient blood to the heart. It is also used to make dynamite. It's 100% fair to say it's in both -- the rest is in the context aka other ingredients and dosage. Yes, I used the Nobel Prize to drive that parallel home. It reminds me of the "there's mercury in MMR vaccines" argument, or "there's titanium in white paint" argument. Yes, the element is in there. No, it's not in there in its base form. Your house's walls are not shotgun-proof just because you used white primer.

    Just because nitroglycerine is an FDA approved drug and/or just because it's got Nobel's name on it doesn't mean it can be used to treat COVID, of course. Neither is ivermectin. There are currently no credible, large-scale studies saying that it helps -- the FDA, the AMA, the WHO and basically every large-scale medical org on the planet are all in agreement on this one.

    Technically you could treat COVID with dynamite -- in that the patient would not have COVID symptoms anymore. Bonus, they'd also be less worried about the holes in their house from using a shotgun to kill a mosquito.

    And before anyone asks "well there are studies that show promise, so maybe take the medicine with the same confidence as people took the vaccine when it wasn't FDA approved yet?" there are three easy counterarguments.
    1) The vaccines we're using now were given extensive study and at least emergency certification months ago. Ivermectin currently has neither and has no timeline for such.
    2) Even if that wasn't true, various forms of COVID have been studies for about 20 years. The vaccine had a head start. There are not 20 years of study for ivermectin for treating COVID. I'm not sure there are 20 weeks of study.
    3) And if, past all that, you're that willing to get in on a treatment that shows promise early even if the data isn't in yet, you would have gotten the vaccine months ago. Unless you're immunocompromised, which no, the people pushing for horse dewormer are not. They're just infocompromised.

    When the large-scale peer-reviewed studies come in that say "ivermectin helps" we can have this discussion again. Until that happens, listen to your doctor more than the guy selling pillows on basic cable, don't take horse dewormer and put the damn shotgun down in the house unless you're actually being attacked by geese.

    For more information, consult the FDA's many cited sources on the subject.
    Size isn't the issue. Parasites and viruses are two completely different things. No matter how similar the disease symptoms are, a parasitic will not stop a virus.

  6. #72806
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefhammer View Post
    Size isn't the issue. Parasites and viruses are two completely different things. No matter how similar the disease symptoms are, a parasitic will not stop a virus.
    Well I did call out "oversimplifying".

    I stand by the phrasing "not designed to go after anything as small as" and the rest of the size discussion is basically analogy. The people like you or I who understand the difference already are the ones waiting for peer-reviewed study and FDA approval, and aren't the ones taking horse dewormer anyhow.

    And of course, the goal of each drug can be different as well. Common dog flea/tick medicines can be made to sterilize the biting insect rather than kill it. You can't castrate a virus -- it's basically all testicle.

    You are right of course -- the biology of even an amoeba is so different than a virus that the chemical nature is a big deal when trying to kill one or the other. And just so we're clear, nobody should be taking random-ass medicines because some guy on the interwebs said so.

  7. #72807
    Since 'these people' like to believe random things found on the internet and unproven studies I wonder what they think about an unproven study from 2011 that Ivermectin causes sterility in 85% of men.
    Personally I kind of hope that is true, someone that takes horse dewormer to fight Covid deserves to be removed from the genepool.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  8. #72808
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Since 'these people' like to believe random things found on the internet and unproven studies I wonder what they think about an unproven study from 2011 that Ivermectin causes sterility in 85% of men.
    Even Snopes doesn't want to handle that. So yeah, it's crazy enough for the rabid fanbase to believe. Nice catch!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also: if we're talking about shaky studies, might as well point out there was a study on viper venom treating COVID no really.

    This goes back to @Beefhammer 's point rather than my imperfect analogy. In monkeys at least, one of the chemicals in the venom didn't so much as kill the virus directly as much as it prevented it from reproducing without going after other cells. Without the ability to reproduce for any reason, the virus can't cause sufficient damage to the host. The rest of the venom, of course, will just kill the host and you should not shoot up viper venom. Nor wander around the Amazon Prime waiting for a two-meter snake to bite your dick.

  9. #72809
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Since 'these people' like to believe random things found on the internet and unproven studies I wonder what they think about an unproven study from 2011 that Ivermectin causes sterility in 85% of men.
    Personally I kind of hope that is true, someone that takes horse dewormer to fight Covid deserves to be removed from the genepool.
    My thoughts exactly. Would love if it were true, however most of the stories and such that I've seen are from people who have, unfortunately, already had a chance to breed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Even Snopes doesn't want to handle that. So yeah, it's crazy enough for the rabid fanbase to believe. Nice catch!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also: if we're talking about shaky studies, might as well point out there was a study on viper venom treating COVID no really.

    This goes back to @Beefhammer 's point rather than my imperfect analogy. In monkeys at least, one of the chemicals in the venom didn't so much as kill the virus directly as much as it prevented it from reproducing without going after other cells. Without the ability to reproduce for any reason, the virus can't cause sufficient damage to the host. The rest of the venom, of course, will just kill the host and you should not shoot up viper venom. Nor wander around the Amazon Prime waiting for a two-meter snake to bite your dick.
    I hear arsenic is quite effective too.....

    /s

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_bullet_(medicine)

  10. #72810
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Personally I kind of hope that is true, someone that takes horse dewormer to fight Covid deserves to be removed from the genepool.
    I mean...if they take it at horse dewormer strength, they could just...die.

    You can also overdose on ivermectin, which can cause nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, hypotension (low blood pressure), allergic reactions (itching and hives), dizziness, ataxia (problems with balance), seizures, coma and even death.
    -- the FDA

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    Bring popcorn. And masks.
    The headlines I'm reading suggest Biden's order will be for federal workers, which of course he can totally do. He might also require vaccine passports and masks in federal buildings, which he can also totally do.

  11. #72811
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    157,759 new cases; 1,700 deaths, bringing the total to 671,183. Technically it was actually over 2k if you add in Florida's real total instead of the 6 they reported, but I'm trying to remain consistent even if they aren't.
    Eh, Florida only actually added 6 deaths yesterday. There should be a dump today, however.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

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  12. #72812
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    Eh, Florida only actually added 6 deaths yesterday.
    Yeah going to continue to call out Florida on their bullshit whenever it appears. Florida's 7day average is 344, +54% over two weeks prior.

    They also had 750,000 children test positive last month, which at least is cases not deaths.

    I also like this bit about a local Florida politician who called Fauci "Dr. Falsey". First, falseys are fake boobs. Second, the politician is in the hospital because COVID.

    We did not have a pandemic, folks. We were lied to
    -- the 67-year-old in the hospital

    Speaking of which, hospitalizations are down -- and before you ask, yes, they're down by more than just the people who died. That's welcome news, at least. But the facts still remain that Florida has handled the COVID objectively worse than...um...pretty much everyone. They have the highest deaths per capita of any state, yes, including Mississippi, Louisiana and Texas.

    Basically, if things improve at their current rate, in about two weeks they'll "only be as bad as Alabama".

  13. #72813
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Some person named Stephanie Grisham wrote a book titled “I’ll Take Your Questions Now”. She claims to have been a Press Secretary but I can’t find any evidence of her doing that job.
    She was. July 2019...huh...to April 2020.

  14. #72814
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    I know she never took any questions…
    I'd like to think that's the joke of the title, but somehow I doubt she has that level of self awareness.

  15. #72815
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    I mean, she had the title. Did she ever do anything though? I know she never took any questions…
    She didn't even pay lip service.

    To the title that is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Quit using other posters as levels of crazy. That is not ok


    If you look, you can see the straw man walking a red herring up a slippery slope coming to join this conversation.

  16. #72816
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Yeah going to continue to call out Florida on their bullshit whenever it appears. Florida's 7day average is 344, +54% over two weeks prior.
    Sure, but then yesterday's US total was actually 2161 rather than 1700, and the US 7-day average is over 1600 now, instead of 1200. Apples to apples.


    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    I also like this bit about a local Florida politician who called Fauci "Dr. Falsey".
    Meh, you're a couple of pages late on this one.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

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  17. #72817
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    Meh, you're a couple of pages late on this one
    It is hard to keep all the people who claim COVID is a harmless false hoax who then end up in the hospital or dead straight.

  18. #72818
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    At least they deworm themselves before going to the hospital. It’s nice to eliminate ONE concern.
    Sadly I believe that only covers worms in their intestines, not their brain worms : /

  19. #72819
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Sadly I believe that only covers worms in their intestines, not their brain worms : /
    Poor worms. Starved...
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Quit using other posters as levels of crazy. That is not ok


    If you look, you can see the straw man walking a red herring up a slippery slope coming to join this conversation.

  20. #72820
    Old God Captain N's Avatar
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    These folks believing in Ivermectin as a cure for COVID are getting bad. One of the hospitals here in Illinois is getting a backlash from other morons because a prominent anti-vaccine/anti-masker has been denied treatment with the de-worming drug.

    https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/loca...-drug/2607957/

    AMITA Health confirmed that staff at Resurrection Medical Center in Norwood Park have received "hundreds of phone calls and emails associated with one patient's care."

    That patient, according to her husband, is Veronica Wolski, whom Lawrence Wolski told NBC 5 is hospitalized with COVID-19.

    Wolski is known for documenting her demonstrations on a bridge over the Kennedy Expressway on YouTube. She is vocal about her beliefs against the coronavirus vaccine and wearing masks.

    "I have never once worn a mask. I have called the police on people that tried to make me wear masks," Wolski said in one of her videos.

    According to her husband and supporters on various social media platforms, Wolski has requested to be treated with the controversial drug, ivermectin.

    Ivermectin is a deworming drug mostly used in veterinary medicine, according to Chicago's top health official, Dr. Allison Arwady.

    "I am a little surprised I guess that there are people who want to take a veterinary medicine that is not FDA approved, but then don’t want to take the vaccine that has had really widespread human trials and is approved," said Dr. Arwady.

    Arwady warns the drug is leading to hospitalizations and not being used correctly.

    "They’re taking doses that are dosed for horses or cows and we have seen people have liver problems, nausea, all kinds of issues," she said. "I want to be really, really, really clear that in no case should anybody try to take a veterinary formula ever of any medication."

    The FDA has not authorized or approved ivermectin for use in preventing or treating COVID-19 in humans or animals. Ivermectin is approved for human use to treat infections caused by some parasitic worms and head lice and skin conditions like rosacea.

    The FDA says taking large doses of ivermectin is dangerous and clinical trials assessing the tablets for the prevention or treatment of COVID-19 in people are ongoing.

    The drug is at the center of a national debate and in a number of lawsuits, including in Springfield where a Sangamon County judge, last week, blocked a man from receiving ivermectin to treat COVID-19.

    Ivermectin has been promoted by Republican lawmakers, conservative talk show hosts and some doctors, amplified via social media to millions of Americans who remain resistant to getting vaccinated. It has also been widely used in other countries, including India and Brazil.

    Federal health officials have seen a surge in prescriptions this summer, accompanied by worrying increases in reported overdoses. The drug was even given to inmates at a jail in northwest Arkansas for COVID-19, despite federal warnings against that use.

    Last week, podcaster Joe Rogan, who has been dismissive of the COVID-19 vaccine, announced he had tested positive for the virus and was taking the medication.

    AMITA Health confirmed to NBC 5 it is not currently administering ivermectin and released the following statement in regards to Wolski's case.

    "At AMITA Health, our first priority is the health and safety of our patients. Our physicians and clinicians follow the full guidance of the FDA and the CDC in the treatment of COVID-19. And while AMITA Health Resurrection Medical Center has received hundreds of phone calls and emails associated with one patient’s care, we have simply and respectfully noted the concerns shared."
    “You're not to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or says it.”― Malcolm X

    I watch them fight and die in the name of freedom. They speak of liberty and justice, but for whom? -Ratonhnhaké:ton (Connor Kenway)

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