Blizzard needs to F**K right off with Cashshop Transmogs

[Magnagarde]

Blizzard did place a 3% hourly maximum differential on the token to prevent the dips and highs you're referring to.

Well, the hourly dip differential would overall lead to a more substantial dip over time. There's only so much an hourly interval can delay.

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its like they just scream and have no idea what they are talking about

Now that's an exaggeration of the situation, but that's okay. Your post's contribution is duly noted lol

I've had a lot of fun thanks to the WoW token and it made it possible to make new friends and play the game in ways I previously never imagined would be suitable. I certainly hope it stays the way it is. I simply refuse to blindly believe that the WoW token's value in gold is a completely self-regulating mechanism with no interference from Blizzard that works on "supply and demand", when the historic trends available point to the contrary.

In fact, the contrary is simply the wisest business decision and looking at Blizzards reported profits, I can only say that they certainly are making profitable decisions.

[Relapses]

Well, the hourly dip differential would overall lead to a more substantial dip over time. There's only so much an hourly interval can delay.

...which is exactly what happens. Turns out, when left to its own devices the market mostly stays about the same. Wonder why that is...

[Magnagarde]

...which is exactly what happens. Turns out, when left to its own devices the market mostly stays about the same. Wonder why that is...

If Blizzard left the market to its own devices, WoW token-to-gold exchange rates wouldn't be as stable. The WoW token is a Blizzard service, camouflaged as an exchange between two players. We could talk about a market if you and I were directly exchanging the gold and the WoW token, which we're not.

[Relapses]

If Blizzard left the market to its own devices, WoW token-to-gold exchange rates wouldn't be as stable. The WoW token is a Blizzard service, camouflaged as an exchange between two players. We could talk about a market if you and I were directly exchanging the gold and the WoW token, which we're not.

Until you have proof otherwise this is conjecture. (And bullshit conjecture at that, might I add.)

[Magnagarde]

Until you have proof otherwise this is conjecture. (And bullshit conjecture at that, might I add.)

There is no proof that would make you or me believe to the contrary. The historic trend of the gold exchange ratio argues that this is the case. Have you ever exchanged a WoW token with a player?

[Relapses]

There is no proof that would make you or me believe to the contrary. The historic trend of the gold exchange ratio argues that this is the case. Have you ever exchanged a WoW token with a player?

Ah, there we go. We go back to my post from earlier then:

Buddy, the absence of proof is not proof.

[Magnagarde]

Ah, there we go. We go back to my post from earlier then:

My "proof" are verifiable trends, the only thing we can use to back our positions up. Your proof is "It is a conspiracy" and blind belief that Blizzard is not artificially managing WoW token-to-gold exchange rates.

You can't talk about supply and demand if you don't know who is demanding, who is supplying and how much is being demanded, then say that the worth of what is demanded and supplied is clearly legit and natural. That is why you take the graph of the historic exchange rates and realize that Blizzard's running a nigh perfect system that is supposed to run on its own, while every variable affecting said system is on a rampage every now and then.

[bledgor]

What is all this talk about gold being harder to make than Legion in here? I am making ~2k a day from adventure table per a character right now (between getting 3-5 350 gold quests and augment runes). Especially since 9.1 dropped and I can go to Korthia once every 2 weeks to farm 2k anima in 30-40 minutes it is pretty easy to keep 5 characters going, and honestly if I needed gold could have more rolling.

Add in you can send for rep/do daily callings and you get another 400g a day and every 10k rep 3k gold, which can easily be at least once a week for another 400gold daily. No not the afk levels of WoD easy gold, but pretty comparable to Legion.

[Drusin]

So I don't get to define words, but everyone else does. How ironic.

I didn't say that, no one does, join my team Arkanon

team P2W-Means-What-You-Say-It-Means-But-Only-For-You-Not-Everyone

[arkanon]

This is like the sub count debate all over again - people with a few random crumbs claiming they know the exact recipe for a cake. Both sides are as guilty of this as the other - no hate from me towards either side, but its clear there is a lot of bias being shown.

I have said it a couple of times, but I remember before the token was announced that Blizzard did say they at least COULD adjust the value of a token, and said it would only be used to stop people / groups "manipulating" the value. I have also said I might be totally misremembering this, I remember it because there was a lot of drama, so either I made that up, they changed their mind, or we all just forgot about it.

[Relapses]

My "proof" are verifiable trends, the only thing we can use to back our positions up. Your proof is "It is a conspiracy" and blind belief that Blizzard is not artificially managing WoW token-to-gold exchange rates.

You can't talk about supply and demand if you don't know who is demanding, who is supplying and how much is being demanded, then say that the worth of what is demanded and supplied is clearly legit and natural. That is why you take the graph of the historic exchange rates and realize that Blizzard's running a nigh perfect system that is supposed to run on its own, while every variable affecting said system is on a rampage every now and then.

Trends for which you have no context because, like me, you have no idea how much gold is actually being injected into the economy. If the argument doesn't work for me it doesn't work for you either. As players, we don't know anything about the token other than what Blizzard has told us. And what they have told us is that it's simple supply and demand; until proven otherwise, I see no reason to disbelieve this. You're free to view this information through whichever lens you see fit but understand the reason myself and others are skeptical of your take is because it does little except appeal to the conspiratorial, cynical nature of the WoW community. (Blizzard is a business, businesses want money; therefore, Blizzard makes decisions that result in more money even if they're harmful to the playerbase.)

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This is like the sub count debate all over again - people with a few random crumbs claiming they know the exact recipe for a cake. Both sides are as guilty of this as the other - no hate from me towards either side, but its clear there is a lot of bias being shown.

I have said it a couple of times, but I remember before the token was announced that Blizzard did say they at least COULD adjust the value of a token, and said it would only be used to stop people / groups "manipulating" the value. I have also said I might be totally misremembering this, I remember it because there was a lot of drama, so either I made that up, they changed their mind, or we all just forgot about it.

I don't see the point of bringing something up if you can neither source it nor provide any evidence of it being more than a hallucination on your part.

[arkanon]

I didn't say that, no one does, join my team Arkanon

team P2W-Means-What-You-Say-It-Means-But-Only-For-You-Not-Everyone

Sadly, P2W only ever seems to be a factor in games someone DOESNT play - Very few people say "yeah man, i LOVE 'ork slayer 4', and its totally P2W!" they all say "nah, its not P2W" or at the very least "nah its not bad, other games are WAY worse!".

This is why I personally think its better to talk about P2W FEATURES rather than P2W GAMES. I think its perfectly ok for a game to have some P2W features, but its based on a few things - payment model of the game, value for money of the feature (somewhat subjective), if the items are available in game or only store, and how 'powerful' the feature is.

The example I have used is the boost in classic tbc - and yes, i know some people hated it, but overall i think it was good for the game. It gave those wanting to play TBC but had no interest in Classic a chance to play. Very few other games REQUIRE you to play what are essentially previous titles in the series - imagine if you wanted to play Madden 22 and to do that, you had to complete a career playthrough of Madden 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, and 21 before accessing anything from 22. Wanna play D4? No problem at all! just complete D1, 2, and 3 and you can start D4!

Thats antoher discussion entirely, but I also think its by FAR the biggest turnoff for potential new players.

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I don't see the point of bringing something up if you can neither source it nor provide any evidence of it being more than a hallucination on your part.

Do you count as a source?

Blizzard did place a 3% hourly maximum differential on the token to prevent the dips and highs you're referring to.

[Relapses]

Do you count as a source?

That's not the same as flat out changing the price like you implied in your post. That check and balance is there to prevent stock market crashing phenomena from happening to the WoW token because Blizzard announced they're nerfing Mages.

[Magnagarde]

Trends for which you have no context because, like me, you have no idea how much gold is actually being injected into the economy. If the argument doesn't work for me it doesn't work for you either.

Neither of us can tell exactly how much gold is injected, that is absolutely correct. However, both of us can tell the at which point in the game's history relatively more gold was spawned into its virtual pool than, say, right now. You can then relate these periods with the historic value of the WoW token in terms of the gold you get for it. This is where the discrepancy and everything that is unnatural in regards to it shows.

You're free to view this information through whichever lens you see fit but understand the reason myself and others are skeptical of your take is because it does little except appeal to the conspiratorial, cynical nature of the WoW community.

Whichever lens you may believe that I am looking at this, I would only like to add that none of what I wrote in this thread means to present Blizzard in the light that you seem to think I did; on multiple occasions I actually stated the opposite, that it benefits many players. It certainly harms the game in specific ways and that can't be denied either, but it has its benefits and I would like to believe that my review of the entire system in that regard - in regard to its impact on the game - has been balanced.

Blizzard having control over the token-to-gold exchange rates and the spawning of gold/WoW tokens on player demand is something that I absolutely stand by though. The stability of the value is unnatural and the trends that we can observe in relation to it speak against a spontaneous system. At this point, it is safe to say that we agree to disagree.

[Triceron]

Trends for which you have no context because, like me, you have no idea how much gold is actually being injected into the economy. If the argument doesn't work for me it doesn't work for you either. As players, we don't know anything about the token other than what Blizzard has told us. And what they have told us is that it's simple supply and demand; until proven otherwise, I see no reason to disbelieve this. You're free to view this information through whichever lens you see fit but understand the reason myself and others are skeptical of your take is because it does little except appeal to the conspiratorial, cynical nature of the WoW community. (Blizzard is a business, businesses want money; therefore, Blizzard makes decisions that result in more money even if they're harmful to the playerbase.)

Not everyone who has disagreed with your particular POV agrees with the conclusion of being harmful to the playerbase though. You're just assuming that Blizzard having any means of intervention would result in being harmful to the playerbase, when it's just a matter of pointing out they have control over the system and of the supply regardless of its effects overall. 'Harmful to the playerbase' is ultimately subjective, since there are people on both sides benefitting from any rise or drop, whether you are a buyer or a seller.

[arkanon]

That's not the same as flat out changing the price like you implied in your post. That check and balance is there to prevent stock market crashing phenomena from happening to the WoW token because Blizzard announced they're nerfing Mages.

So I said this:

Blizzard did say they at least COULD adjust the value of a token, and said it would only be used to stop people / groups "manipulating" the value.

You replied that I made it up, but also said this:

Blizzard did place a 3% hourly maximum differential on the token to prevent the dips and highs you're referring to.

And then you followed up with:

That check and balance is there to prevent stock market crashing phenomena from happening to the WoW token because Blizzard announced they're nerfing Mages.

Your stance is very confusing – you actually agree with everything im saying, but present it as though you disagree and im wrong?

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Not everyone who has disagreed with your particular POV agrees with the conclusion of being harmful to the playerbase though. You're just assuming that Blizzard having any means of intervention would result in being harmful to the playerbase, when it's just a matter of pointing out they have control over the system and of the supply regardless of its effects overall. 'Harmful to the playerbase' is ultimately subjective, since there are people on both sides benefitting from any rise or drop, whether you are a buyer or a seller.

This is something i have tried to explain a few times, but you have done a better job than me. When i argue that certain features are P2W, for example, people jump to defend the game and company as though im attacking them, even when i openly say i consider some P2W features to be really positive for the health of the game overall.

[Relapses]

Not everyone who has disagreed with your particular POV agrees with the conclusion of being harmful to the playerbase though. You're just assuming that Blizzard having any means of intervention would result in being harmful to the playerbase, when it's just a matter of pointing out they have control over the system and of the supply regardless of its effects overall. 'Harmful to the playerbase' is ultimately subjective, since there are people on both sides benefitting from any rise or drop, whether you are a buyer or a seller.

It's harmful insofar as it'd be evidence that they lied to us about the intended purpose of the token. The token was positioned as a tool to help players use virtual currency to exchange for real life goods and services. That's fine, on principle I have no problem with that. The free market will sort itself out. But if the purpose of the token is everything I just mentioned but also to line Blizzard's pockets by using it an unscrupulous manner outside the parameters of what they told us it was intended then yes, I absolutely would have an issue with it. You can say this is a "me issue" and claim that the relationship is mutually beneficial for Blizzard and players but the simple fact remains that Blizzard said {x} and, personally, I'm going to believe {x} regardless of how plausible alternative theories may be.

[Triceron]

It's harmful insofar as it'd be evidence that they lied to us about the intended purpose of the token. The token was positioned as a tool to help players use virtual currency to exchange for real life goods and services. That's fine, on principle I have no problem with that. The free market will sort itself out. But if the purpose of the token is everything I just mentioned but also to line Blizzard's pockets by using it an unscrupulous manner outside the parameters of what they told us it was intended then yes, I absolutely would have an issue with it. You can say this is a "me issue" and claim that the relationship is mutually beneficial for Blizzard and players but the simple fact remains that Blizzard said {x} and, personally, I'm going to believe {x} regardless of how plausible alternative theories may be.

No where was it ever stated that they would have zero intervention on the WoW token. So assuming that it is completely a 'free market' is itself (in your words) a 'conspiracy theory', because there's zero proof of that being the case. It was just passed off as legitimate premium 'service' for buying gold or game time. Blizzard never stated that they'd keep hands off and let the market work itself out with zero intervention. There is no lie except the one that you seem to be telling yourself and pawning off as some commonly-held truth in this discussion. I mean, where are you even drawing the conclusion that it's a 'free market' at all?

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ne...-the-wow-token

This is the original announcement and FAQ for the WoW Token. You'll see that nothing in it pertains to it being a free trade market. The only thing comparable is simply basing the system off the Auction House transactions, but without any tangible affect on the market as a whole. There is no undercutting, there is no personal market value for token sales, there is no individual intervention on the supply or demand of tokens. The market is anything but free. It is absolutely regulated.

You can be hopeful that they are keeping out of it, but just the same you have zero proof for your own position. There's really nothing that we have here to disprove any alternative take on the situation. And the fact remains that they *do* have full control over the system they've created, including having full control over the amount of WoW tokens in circulation. If they want to remove 10,000 tokens from the market, they can do so at the press of a button, that's all within their power and their right to do so. And again, simply pointing out that they have control over the system does not equate to them actively abusing the system for nefarious purposes, and no one has been implying that whatsoever.

It's a regulated system because they have complete authority over all purchases and transactions.

[Queen of Hamsters]

If they were manipulating tokens wouldn't it have made sense that there'd be a massive increase in their price after the Brutosaur's removal was announced? Instead it went down. Maybe the intern in charge of fucking with token prices was on vacation, eh?

Mhm, there's nothing suggesting manipulation, no sudden value cuts/increases with new offers.

That guy's just your run of the mill conspiracy theorist on this matter. COULD it happen? Sure, same as how Blizzard could literally decide to delete all our Zandalari Troll characters and we could do fuck all about it. Doesn't mean it DOES happen.

I was actually 100% sure the token's gold value would "magically increase" when I was at my most salty about the Brutosaur announcement. Didn't happen.

[Relapses]

No where was it ever stated that they would have zero intervention on the WoW token. So assuming that it is completely a 'free market' is itself (in your words) a 'conspiracy theory', because there's zero proof of that being the case. It was just passed off as legitimate premium 'service' for buying gold or game time. Blizzard never stated that they'd keep hands off and let the market work itself out with zero intervention. There is no lie except the one that you seem to be telling yourself and pawning off as some commonly-held truth in this discussion. I mean, where are you even drawing the conclusion that it's a 'free market' at all?

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ne...-the-wow-token

This is the original announcement and FAQ for the WoW Token. You'll see that nothing in it pertains to it being a free trade market. The only thing comparable is simply basing the system off the Auction House transactions, but without any tangible affect on the market as a whole. There is no undercutting, there is no personal market value for token sales, there is no individual intervention on the supply or demand of tokens. The market is anything but free. It is absolutely regulated.

You can be hopeful that they are keeping out of it, but just the same you have zero proof for your own position. There's really nothing that we have here to disprove any alternative take on the situation. And the fact remains that they *do* have full control over the system they've created, including having full control over the amount of WoW tokens in circulation. If they want to remove 10,000 tokens from the market, they can do so at the press of a button, that's all within their power and their right to do so.

Perhaps I should rephrase: The only thing we know about the token is that it uses an internally calculated algorithm to determine its value. I firmly believe that the only real purpose of such an algorithm would be to allow simple supply and demand macro-level economics control the price and adjust, as necessary, for things like inflation. That is the essence of any free market, but I will concede that the crux of this idea is based on the lack of intervention on Blizzard's part. And I guess that's where you and I fail to see level. That said,

And again, simply pointing out that they have control over the system does not equate to them actively abusing the system for nefarious purposes, and no one has been implying that whatsoever.

I do have to take issue with you here, especially considering the person with whom I was discussing this with prior to your interjection repeatedly implied that Blizzard intentionally made gold scarce so as to force players into buying tokens. Your subscribed line of reasoning would easily allow somebody to support this position because, well, businesses be businesses, capitalism, etc. I would prefer to keep things simple. We don't know, so why assume we do?