Do you think Alleria, Vereesa and elves like Valeera are traitors to Quel'Thalas?

[sighy]

Did you completely forget how Theron helped orchestrate the rescue of Baine Bloodhoof, which led to the deaths of several Thalassian Sunreavers?

But it's not complex, true. Alleria rejoined the Alliance because 99% of her family is there. Family is more important than Country, both IRL and in fiction.

That doesn't make her a traitor, that makes her a good person who genuinely loves her family.

But haters will hate no matter what. If she joined the Horde instead of the Alliance, the haters would still call her a traitor for forsaking her family to be with a zombie.

Basically the bulk of current Horde leadership betrayed Sylvanas, which is it's own can of worms in regards to ill conceived and even worse executed writing that i won'T get into for the sake of not derailing the thread, but yes Lor'themar in that specific context would be traitor, if only on the basis of bailing out Baine, even if he didn't touch a fly. And the only real difference between traitor and rebel is perspective.

Fighting for the Aliance against Quel'thalas does make her a traitor to Quel'thalas. Having motivations grounded in established emotional values makes her an actual not poorly written character, however it doesn't change what her action is. (IE going to war against your own nation/homeland/monarch, from the perspective of your homeland you committed high treason no matter who you associate with or where you choose to live it's the taking up arms against your own people part)

Could have been interesting to see her choose a path that is still Aliance aligned, but refuse to take up arms against her own people, for example, but what'S done is done.

[Ardenaso]

-snip-

the Alliance abandoned Quel'thalas for 6 years and didn't lift a finger for them despite High Elven diaspora in Stormwind, Theramore, etc. and I'm surprised they didn't have any distaste for their inaction; the Blood Elves were desperate, they needed all the help they can get and it was the Horde who helped them and obviously they will join with those who gave them a second chance in life.

the Night Elves lost their immortality at the end of ROC where they also became susceptible to weakness, sickness, aging, disease, etc. and now imagine getting a disease you never felt before on top of getting sickness for the first time; the Night Elves needed help after the Warsong Clan continued their logging in Ashenvale

but yes, I'd prefer if it was 4 factions instead where Night Elves are independent of the Alliance and Horde and the Blood Elves and Forsaken are their own faction

- - - Updated - - -

Not betraying your allies and siding with your own enemies, like the Blood Elves did does not make the High Elves traitors, in fact, the Blood Elves are the traitors.

Quel'thalas proper was only part of the Alliance of Lordaeron (year 4-6 I think) at the Second War and a few months in the Third War (year 20-21) and they never (re)pledged to the Grand Alliance, no betrayal to something you're not part of (anymore)

[Mehrunes]

Again why is there a prison break if it was an execution? Yes they attack you first, they are hostile and clearly aren't in prison like the people that went along quietly nor did they willingly leave on their own accord. If they weren't a threat they would have been taken in earlier.....

You're conflating multiple events and pretending it constitutes a point. All the while distorting the shit out of every individual element you mashed together here. First of all, since when was the Horde operation a prison break? All Rommath said was that they'll try to save everyone they can. The only person they broken out was Aethas and even when it comes to him they learned that he's been captured only after arriving in Dalaran. When it comes to literally everyone else Rommath outright ignored the Elves that had been imprisoned and instead focused on saving the Sunreavers still on the streets or in the sewers that.

And even if you were not misrepresenting Horde's goals in Dalaran, which you blatantly are, how the hell does that change anything in regards to the Alliance quest in question? The killed shopkeepers have nothing to do with the Horde questline as they don't even show up in it. They are immaterial to whatever the purpose of the Horde mission was and vice versa.

Besides, as I already pointed out, even if they did attack you first (which, contrary to what you're saying here isn't a given because of class differences), they had already been marked to death before that. Do you not understand what "before" means to begin with, or are you trying to wish away the concept of the linearity of time? Furthermore, the Alliance quest in question doesn't say anything about them attacking anyone beforehand. It only mentions how they sided with the Sunreavers and that they are marked for death for that.

I assume you also think the Alliance attacked the goblins first in silithus as well when clearly the quests didn't make sense with the Alliance attacking first.

This is A-grade BS. The Alliance questline begins with SI:7 telling their new operative, i.e. the player, that their previous passive approach did not achieve the desired results and that they are changing tactics to obtaining samples via murder. Yet in your very logical mind they were already clashing with the Goblins at the time (during their passive observation no less) and yet the Alliance's most esteemed intelligence agency did not warn its new agents that the enemy is already aware of the Alliance presence in the area - to the point of killing other operatives no less - even though it was vital intel. Yup, totally checks out.

Never mind that even if the Horde questline did start first, which it clearly did not, it opened with the Horde killing Horde spies in the Horde camp. With said infiltration being confirmed in the Alliance questline. Meaning that the Alliance acted as the aggressor first regardless, because they don't have the right to enter Horde camps without permission and their very presence there constituted a violation of Horde's sovereignty.

" When Grand Magister Rommath returned to Quel'Thalas to teach them Kael's magic siphoning ways, some elves were disgusted by the practice — likening it to vampiric behavior — and opposed its use. Unable to lead a divided nation, Regent Lord Lor'themar exiled the dissenters from the kingdom, the exiles finding residence in Quel'Lithien.[11]."

What are you trying to achieve here? The thread is about Alleria and other Void Elves, Vereesa and Valeera. I pointed out the Quel'Lithien Elves myself and how they were the only Thalassians actually exiled from Quel'Thalas as a whole. Surprisingly enough, they aren't Alleria, Void Elves, Vereesa or Valeera. And as I pointed out, they died in Cataclysm, making them rather irrelevant to the topic at this point. All you've showed here is that you can't even properly read posts that you're replying to.

"Lor'themar Theron: Enough! You will leave at once, Alleria. Accident or no, your presence poses a danger to Quel'Thalas. Go back to Stormwind. Silvermoon is no longer your home." You seriously think Umbrics and the void elves exile would have been of just Silvermoon when Lor'themar tells Alleria gtfo and go back to the Alliance?

Thanks for quoting how Alleria has been exiled from Silvermoon. And you do realize that after their exile "from Quel'Thalas" Umbric and his lot were weirdly enough still in Quel'Thalas because that's what Ghostlands are? Can you actually explain that, or is the best you've got merrily ignoring this point after it has already been made multiple times and hoping it will just go away? Because your false equivalence between Lor'themar telling someone already affiliated with Stormwind and who visited Silvermoon as an envoy of Anduin to Elves that weren't members of the Alliance at the time doesn't pan out.

The regime she was loyal to was Anasterian's. She never swore fealty to the new regime set up by Kael and Theron. She had no obligation to serve them.

She does not go against the wishes of her people. As many Blood elf scholars went to Telogrus Rift to study the Void and become Ren'dorei themselves. Since many Sin'dorei are attracted by the power and knowledge that the Ren'dorei offer. She only goes against a fraction of her people, the same way Theron has been doing for years (see the High elves under Vereesa).

You don't re-swear fealty on a succession change in a monarchy. Kael was the rightful heir and he was owed allegiance because of that fact alone. And the same applies to any regents appointed by him while he was in charge. So she most certainly has an obligation to serve them. A state isn't a buffet where you pick whatever you want.

And yes, between the Void Elves and the Blood Elves it's totally the Blood Elves that are a fraction of their people Never mind that even if you were capable of supporting that with anything that still wouldn't change that the state apparatus is controlled by the Blood Elves, making them the rulers.

She has every right not to swear fealty to Theron because he's not a King, he doesn't have royal blood, and his validity as Regent is non-existent since he was appointed by a madman who tried to destroy Silvermoon and went to literal Purgatory for his sins.

Kael going Fel-crazy after he appointed Lor'themar does not retroactively negate his prior decisions, because that's not how anything works.

The subjects have every right to say that because Quel'Thalas is no longer a monarchy, Kael'thas even decreed that the last King would be Anasterian. The subjects have been doing that for 10 years, see the schism between Sin'dorei and Quel'dorei.

A monarchy does not require a king. It requires a monarch, who by no means needs to have the title of a king. Kael still titled himself a prince after the Scourge invasion. Besides, you can't even keep your nonsense consistent. So now that it's convenient to your point Kael's decrees prior to him siding with the Legion count? Never mind that you only shot yourself in the foot with your blatant cherry-picking, because Kael wouldn't have the right to decree anything if he wasn't the ruler. Congrats, you had to resort to fallacious BS and still didn't manage to climb your way out of the hole you argued yourself into in your argument with @Rochana Violence

Also, aside from the Quel'Lithien exiles (who are now dead) the 10% of Thalassians that remained High Elves are merely those Kael could not gather after the Scourge invasion, like the Elves living in lodges in Dwarven territory. At no point have they said a word about Quel'Thalas not being a monarchy anymore.

Not betraying your allies and siding with your own enemies, like the Blood Elves did does not make the High Elves traitors, in fact, the Blood Elves are the traitors.

Quel'Thalas left the Alliance immediately after the Second War. They didn't betray squat. Instead the Alliance stabbed them in the back when they were in talks about rejoining it. And Quel'Thalas gets to decide who its enemies are, because that's the prerogative of the state. US sided with Japan after WWII. Any US citizens who would have defected to the Warsaw Pact over it still would have been traitors.

[Tanaria]

If anyone needs to read over the alliance of lordaeron and the relations that Quel'Thalas had with it:
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/All..._Quel.27Thalas

[Shefu]

lol alliance players came out to vote in full force.

[Dartz1979]

Alleria she's too much of a waifu to be a traitor now vereesa i cant trust her at all she was too clingy to jaina during the throne of thunder chain quests

[Ielenia]

She does not have the authority of making alliances with anyone. She goes against the wishes of her people and her nation both, which is pretty much the key essence of being a traitor...

Except she didn't? She allied herself with the Alliance, and offered to try to convince Lor'themar to do the same. She acted as an envoy of the Alliance to try to convince Lor'themar and the blood elves to join the Alliance. She did not march into Quel'thalas and said "You guys are now Alliance now because I say so, lolz."

[qwerty123456]

You're conflating multiple events and pretending it constitutes a point. All the while distorting the shit out of every individual element you mashed together here. First of all, since when was the Horde operation a prison break? All Rommath said was that they'll try to save everyone they can. The only person they broken out was Aethas and even when it comes to him they learned that he's been captured only after arriving in Dalaran. When it comes to literally everyone else Rommath outright ignored the Elves that had been imprisoned and instead focused on saving the Sunreavers still on the streets or in the sewers that.

And even if you were not misrepresenting Horde's goals in Dalaran, which you blatantly are, how the hell does that change anything in regards to the Alliance quest in question? The killed shopkeepers have nothing to do with the Horde questline as they don't even show up in it. They are immaterial to whatever the purpose of the Horde mission was and vice versa.

Besides, as I already pointed out, even if they did attack you first (which, contrary to what you're saying here isn't a given because of class differences), they had already been marked to death before that. Do you not understand what "before" means to begin with, or are you trying to wish away the concept of the linearity of time? Furthermore, the Alliance quest in question doesn't say anything about them attacking anyone beforehand. It only mentions how they sided with the Sunreavers and that they are marked for death for that.




This is A-grade BS. The Alliance questline begins with SI:7 telling their new operative, i.e. the player, that their previous passive approach did not achieve the desired results and that they are changing tactics to obtaining samples via murder. Yet in your very logical mind they were already clashing with the Goblins at the time (during their passive observation no less) and yet the Alliance's most esteemed intelligence agency did not warn its new agents that the enemy is already aware of the Alliance presence in the area - to the point of killing other operatives no less - even though it was vital intel. Yup, totally checks out.

Never mind that even if the Horde questline did start first, which it clearly did not, it opened with the Horde killing Horde spies in the Horde camp. With said infiltration being confirmed in the Alliance questline. Meaning that the Alliance acted as the aggressor first regardless, because they don't have the right to enter Horde camps without permission and their very presence there constituted a violation of Horde's sovereignty.




What are you trying to achieve here? The thread is about Alleria and other Void Elves, Vereesa and Valeera. I pointed out the Quel'Lithien Elves myself and how they were the only Thalassians actually exiled from Quel'Thalas as a whole. Surprisingly enough, they aren't Alleria, Void Elves, Vereesa or Valeera. And as I pointed out, they died in Cataclysm, making them rather irrelevant to the topic at this point. All you've showed here is that you can't even properly read posts that you're replying to.




Thanks for quoting how Alleria has been exiled from Silvermoon. And you do realize that after their exile "from Quel'Thalas" Umbric and his lot were weirdly enough still in Quel'Thalas because that's what Ghostlands are? Can you actually explain that, or is the best you've got merrily ignoring this point after it has already been made multiple times and hoping it will just go away? Because your false equivalence between Lor'themar telling someone already affiliated with Stormwind and who visited Silvermoon as an envoy of Anduin to Elves that weren't members of the Alliance at the time doesn't pan out.

I think its pretty clear at this point your a horde fanatic and its blinding you to facts.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Purge_of_Dalaran

The Sunreaver's Sanctuary is still crawling with those Horde-loving Sunreavers.

Jaina will have sent the reasonable ones to the Violet Hold. The rest refuse to leave, raising their weapons against us.

Show them the cost of their defiance. They now face the judgment of the Alliance, the Silver Covenant, and the Kirin Tor!

That is a quest before you kill the shopkeepers.

They were given the chance to leave, they detained some, and some started attacking them and refused to leave. You are trying to delude yourself into thinking the Alliance just slaughtered randoms just because a hunter could snipe them before they aggroed them. Do you not realize how sad and silly that is?

Let me guess that next you are going to explain how raising their weapons isn't actually raising their weapons against them since they don't pull out their weapons until you aggro them.


As for Silithus Nathanos tells you to kill people and the very first quest that deals with the Alliance:
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/No_Spies_Allowed

Hey <name>, I'm glad you're here. I'm in way over my head! Killer bugs, a strange substance... that GIANT sword sticking outta the ground... I don't have a good feelin' about this place! To make matters worse, I've been gettin' reports of Alliance spies snoopin' around the camp! Look kid, the Dark Lady has plans for this mysterious ore and I ain't going to be the one to dissapoint her, know what I mean? Get over to the mining camp and take out those SI:7 spies before they ruin the whole operation!

Not once does he mention destroyed shredders or anything all he mentions is spies snooping.

And the quest before that:
Horde: : Gallywix has operations underway in Silithus. Get there at once. And if you see any Alliance skulking about, make quick work of them.

Alliance:: We established a makeshift base in Silithus. Check in with our operatives there--and keep your eyes open for Horde aggression.

Next missions:
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Free_Samples
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/It%27s_a_Sabotage
"My agents have infiltrated the camp, but the clock is ticking and we need to get our hands on some extracted ore samples fast.

In other words, I need someone who can take the direct approach. Someone who can handle a fight against overwhelming odds and come out alive."

The Alliance were just spying until the player gets there.

Take these dynamite bundles and plant them on the inactive shredders around the mining camp.

It'll take those greedy goblins weeks to get back up and running again!

So again during the very first quest when the Horde are asked to kill Alliance where does he mention being weeks behind schedule because the Alliance blew up their shredders?

Here's link to full quest chain :
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Wit...he_Wound#Horde
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Wit...Wound#Alliance

There's no possible way the Alliance could have attacked first unless you wanna deny the quests and make up some bullshit like Alliance being able to travel to Silithus faster so clearly even though the quests prove the Horde attacked first that the Alliance did.

Silithus wasn't Horde territory. If the Horde sets up a camp in Westfall you seriously think the Alliance have no right to enter? And besides they didn't even enter the actual Horde camp:
https://www.wowhead.com/quest=50052/no-spies-allowed

So you say some of the high elves don't count because they aren't Alleria and so no high elves were banished and then proceed to mention the fact that yes Alleria was and literally told to stay with the Alliance. Ok LoL. And I never said Umbrics first banishment was from the Horde. I said that since Alleria was told to fuck off and go Ally what do you think they would have done to the now Void Elves? Either kill them or full exile.

[Alanar]

Void elves are different story. They went from Horde to the Alliance, so yes, they can be regarded as traitors for some, but they did not have much more options either.

True.. they were literally just thrown in the alliance , because of the outcry for High elves. There is not realy any other reason.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

acted as the aggressor first regardless, because they don't have the right to enter Horde camps without permission and their very presence there constituted a violation of Horde's sovereignty.

Says the goblin on night elf land hiding the night elf and explorers league corpses who were went there before the Alliance had a camp in the zone.

[Mehrunes]

Says the goblin on night elf land hiding the night elf and explorers league corpses who were went there before the Alliance had a camp in the zone.

Oh, not this BS again. Explorer's League is sent to Silithus between chapter 12 and 13 of Before the Storm. Their Night Elf bodyguards are sent even later. The SI:7 reinforcements are sent in the first fucking chapter (with initial SI:7 presence obviously getting established before the book even began, as Shaw already had the original sample of Azerite from the Horde camp delivered to him before he even talked with Genn and Anduin and he didn't just pull it out of his ass). The idea that the skirmishes with Explorer's League added in the book happen before the events of the quests (let alone that they retcon the quests, which is also a common Alliance fanfiction) collapses once one pays even the most rudimentary attention to the chronology of events. So I'd encourage you to give it a try.

And the Night Elf land bit doesn't exactly pan out. After the War of the Shifting Sands, aside from some ghosts the Night Elf presence in Silithus dwindled to a Cenarion Circle outpost. Who, by the time WoW began, were a neutral order of Druids open to both factions. And then came Sargeras with his sword, who completely obliterated any Night Elven presence in the zone altogether and made it up for grabs. Furthermore, not once has Horde's right to create settlements in Silithus been put in question. Not in Vanilla when they created their first outpost, not in Cata or MoP despite a faction war waging across the world, not in BfA when the factions started fighting again. Even though Horde's incursions on Night Elven territory had been a hot button issue since Vanilla and the Warsong Clan debacle.

Instead the Alliance repeatedly acknowledged that it is indeed a Horde camp. In Elegy the Alliance leaders even take the prospect of the Horde laying claim to the entirety of Silithus at face value and not one of them stutters about it already being owned by them. Not even Tyrande or Malfurion, even though both were present. And instead of sending the Night Elven army to Silithus in the name of protecting the zone from a foreign invasion they, weirdly enough, sent it only to monitor the Horde's fixation on it and to protect their interests pertaining Azerite.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Oh, not this BS again. Explorer's League is sent to Silithus between chapter 12 and 13 of Before the Storm. Their Night Elf bodyguards are sent even later. The SI:7 reinforcements are sent in the first fucking chapter (with initial SI:7 presence obviously getting established before the book even began, as Shaw already had the original sample of Azerite from the Horde camp delivered to him before he even talked with Genn and Anduin and he didn't just pull it out of his ass). The idea that the skirmishes with Explorer's League added in the book happen before the events of the quests (let alone that they retcon the quests, which is also a common Alliance fanfiction) collapses once one pays even the most rudimentary attention to the chronology of events. So I'd encourage you to give it a try.

And the Night Elf land bit doesn't exactly pan out. After the War of the Shifting Sands, aside from some ghosts the Night Elf presence in Silithus dwindled to a Cenarion Circle outpost. Who, by the time WoW began, were a neutral order of Druids open to both factions. And then came Sargeras with his sword, who completely obliterated any Night Elven presence in the zone altogether and made it up for grabs. Furthermore, not once has Horde's right to create settlements in Silithus been put in question. Not in Vanilla when they created their first outpost, not in Cata or MoP despite a faction war waging across the world, not in BfA when the factions started fighting again. Even though Horde's incursions on Night Elven territory had been a hot button issue since Vanilla and the Warsong Clan debacle.

Instead the Alliance repeatedly acknowledged that it is indeed a Horde camp. In Elegy the Alliance leaders even take the prospect of the Horde laying claim to the entirety of Silithus at face value and not one of them stutters about it already being owned by them. Not even Tyrande or Malfurion, even though both were present. And instead of sending the Night Elven army to Silithus in the name of protecting the zone from a foreign invasion they, weirdly enough, they sent it only to monitor the Horde's fixation on it and to protect their interests pertaining Azerite.

Yes SI:7 reinforcements were sent there First that how ever doesn't mean they had time to, sent up a base, send the legions war heros to said base, wreck the goblins mining, report back to stormwind, all before the night elf's or Explores league were able to hear about any of it and were taken by surprise. There is no mention of alliance action in Silithus by any one prior to the night elf and league being attacked.

The Cenarion Circle was made by and ran by Malfurion it's always been a night elf faction and there land belongs to night elfs just Like Lorderon is a Human/forsaken faction and there land is there own. Them not wanting to make a fuss out of other races going there or even working with them doesn't mean it's not there land that's like saying the battle for undercity show's that lorderon doesn't belong to the forsaken.

As to there annihilation that doesn't deal with the land issues any more then wiping out that one cow tribe in the barrens makes it belong to the dwarfs even if no one wants to fight for it.

[Mehrunes]

I think its pretty clear at this point your a horde fanatic and its blinding you to facts.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Purge_of_Dalaran

The Sunreaver's Sanctuary is still crawling with those Horde-loving Sunreavers.

Jaina will have sent the reasonable ones to the Violet Hold. The rest refuse to leave, raising their weapons against us.

Show them the cost of their defiance. They now face the judgment of the Alliance, the Silver Covenant, and the Kirin Tor!

That is a quest before you kill the shopkeepers.

And since you can't pay attention, the shopkeepers in questions did not reside in the Sunreaver Enclave. Their shops were in the neutral central plaza of the city. Making the remarks about what the Sunreavers in the Sunreaver Enclave were doing immaterial to them. That is a fact. Likewise, Vereesa not saying anything about the shopkeepers engaging in any aggression is also a fact. So spare me your desperate remarks about be being blinded to facts because of my "Horde fanaticism", because you don't have a shred of credibility to making such accusations. Instead you're only climbing the peaks of irony with them.

To make your narrative collapse on itself even more than it already did, your claim that the the Nowhere to Hide quest that you quoted happens before the shopkeeper one is a an outright lie. Those quests happen concurrently and you can finish them in any order (meaning that when fighting was taking place at the Enclave, Vereesa mentioned nothing of the sort happening in the trade district at the same time). Which causes your already non-existent credibility to somehow sink even lower. Congrats on this tremendous achievement, I guess.

They were given the chance to leave, they detained some, and some started attacking them and refused to leave. You are trying to delude yourself into thinking the Alliance just slaughtered randoms just because a hunter could snipe them before they aggroed them. Do you not realize how sad and silly that is?

No, I'm trying to "delude" myself into thinking that when a zealous anti-Sunreaver lunatic like Vereesa doesn't mention anything about the shopkeepers in question engaging in violence even though there was fighting happening on in other areas at the same time and outright questions Jaina's decisions in regards to them then there's squat supporting the notion that they engaged in any violence. And yes, a group built on their hatred of Sunreavers (the Silver Covenant was created in response to Aethas convincing the Kirin Tor to let the Blood Elves back in) and whose members were feeding people to a shark during the very same questline was totally against slaughtering randoms. Because their characters were simply beyond reproach.

Let me guess that next you are going to explain how raising their weapons isn't actually raising their weapons against them since they don't pull out their weapons until you aggro them.

Yes, people raising their weapons in defense when faced with a zealous militia that had no legal standing in the power structure of Dalaran, enforcing an illegal order as Jaina had no authority to perform the Purge without the assent of the rest of the Council of Six is indeed not them attacking. The fact that you need that explained is rather sad. Sad, but not surprising. What's next, you'll tell me that Aethas guards that Jaina killed also "attacked" her by simply raising their weapons?

As for Silithus Nathanos tells you to kill people and the very first quest that deals with the Alliance:
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/No_Spies_Allowed

Hey <name>, I'm glad you're here. I'm in way over my head! Killer bugs, a strange substance... that GIANT sword sticking outta the ground... I don't have a good feelin' about this place! To make matters worse, I've been gettin' reports of Alliance spies snoopin' around the camp! Look kid, the Dark Lady has plans for this mysterious ore and I ain't going to be the one to dissapoint her, know what I mean? Get over to the mining camp and take out those SI:7 spies before they ruin the whole operation!

Not once does he mention destroyed shredders or anything all he mentions is spies snooping.

Except what the Alliance was doing specifically in the Horde camp was immaterial to their objective of them keeping the operation secret. The Alliance could have been having dance parties there and the Horde objective would have remained the same: make the operation secret again by removing those that learned of the secret. Meanwhile the potential previous engagement with the Horde was not immaterial to the Alliance. It was of vital importance to the Alliance character, who should have been made aware that the Alliance spying operation had already been made and that the Horde was on a high alert. Yet nothing of the sort happened. Gee, I wonder why.

Besides, like I already mentioned, it was a Horde camp, making the Alliance operatives there intruders and putting them in the wrong. Meanwhile the Horde has all the right in the world to dispose of foreign agents trespassing in their outposts. So even if your take made any logical sense, which it does not, it still wouldn't have vindicated the Alliance.

And the quest before that:
Horde: : Gallywix has operations underway in Silithus. Get there at once. And if you see any Alliance skulking about, make quick work of them.

And? He's addressing a hypothetical Alliance presence in context of the secrecy of their operation. He doesn't mention any such occurrence actually taking place. Dafuq is that supposed to prove other than the fact that you apparently don't understand what the word "if" means?

Alliance:: We established a makeshift base in Silithus. Check in with our operatives there--and keep your eyes open for Horde aggression.

Yet another warning about potential events that doesn't establish any actual fighting taking place. But hey, if you can't spot a hypothetical that outright contains the word "if" I guess you can't be expected to spot out one that does not.

Next missions:
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Free_Samples
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/It%27s_a_Sabotage
"My agents have infiltrated the camp, but the clock is ticking and we need to get our hands on some extracted ore samples fast.

In other words, I need someone who can take the direct approach. Someone who can handle a fight against overwhelming odds and come out alive."

The Alliance were just spying until the player gets there.

Take these dynamite bundles and plant them on the inactive shredders around the mining camp.

It'll take those greedy goblins weeks to get back up and running again!

So again during the very first quest when the Horde are asked to kill Alliance where does he mention being weeks behind schedule because the Alliance blew up their shredders?

Because the estimates of some random Gnome are the truth of the world? Oh, whoopsie, the Alliance was repeatedly surprised about the scope of the Horde's interest in Silithus and the amount of resources they had been sending there in both Before the Storm and Elegy. It seems the guesswork by said random Gnome turned out not to pan out.

Here's link to full quest chain :
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Wit...he_Wound#Horde
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Wit...Wound#Alliance

There's no possible way the Alliance could have attacked first unless you wanna deny the quests and make up some bullshit like Alliance being able to travel to Silithus faster so clearly even though the quests prove the Horde attacked first that the Alliance did.

What does the ability to travel faster have anything to do with anything? There's not a single word uttered about how long it took either side to travel there or the initial quests taking place at the same exact time. Never mind that you can simply take a portal to Silithus.

Silithus wasn't Horde territory. If the Horde sets up a camp in Westfall you seriously think the Alliance have no right to enter? And besides they didn't even enter the actual Horde camp:
https://www.wowhead.com/quest=50052/no-spies-allowed

Yes, a Horde mining site is totally not a part of their camp. I guess you need an actual sign saying "camp" for it to register as a camp in your mind. Because the multiple structures erected across the mining area didn't seem to do the trick.

Also, I didn't say a word about Silithus being Horde territory. I said that Horde camp in Silithus was Horde territory. And even the Horde camp in the zone before Sargeras scorched the region was never contested, even though the Alliance complained aplenty about Horde incursions into Night Elven lands since Vanilla. Because the zone was contested since Vanilla and the only Night Elven presence in the zone came from neutral Druids. And even that presence was wiped out by Sargeras.

On top of that, while I didn't say anything about Horde owning the entirety of Silithus, the Alliance leaders - Tyrande and Malfurion included - flat out discussed the prospect of the Horde claiming the entirety of Silithus. And would you look at that, not a single one of them raised any issue about the zone already being owned by them, making the potential Horde claim invalid or an act of aggression. Not one of them phrased the Night Elf expedition as protecting an Alliance zone from a Horde invasion. Instead they talked about protecting their interests because they were afraid of Horde monopolizing Azerite and Tyrande herself mentioned that Night Elves are prepared to establish a foothold in the zone. Yup, top notch Alliance territory you got there. So Alliance they didn't even have a foothold.

So you say some of the high elves don't count because they aren't Alleria and so no high elves were banished and then proceed to mention the fact that yes Alleria was and literally told to stay with the Alliance. Ok LoL. And I never said Umbrics first banishment was from the Horde. I said that since Alleria was told to fuck off and go Ally what do you think they would have done to the now Void Elves? Either kill them or full exile.

Yes, the High Elves that weren't mentioned in the OP don't count to the premise of the OP. Complicated concept fer sure. Also, being told back to the place you came from does not equal being banished, because words mean things. Another complicated apparently. At least for some people. In the same vein, when Lor'themar actually talked about kicking Alleria out, he did so in context of Silvermoon instead of Quel'Thalas as a whole. Which is what you mentioned. Quoted word for word, even. Yet you couldn't understand what you were quoting. Making your reasons for quoting it curious indeed.

[Aresk]

The individuals named are as much a traitor to Quel'thalas as Alonsos Faol is a traitor to the Forsaken or Magni is a traitor to Ironforge. They're individuals, capable of their own allegiances, and they stopped their affiliations with the Quel'thalas government long before the Blood Elves joined the Horde. At best, you could argue that Alleria was still a member of Quel'thalas while joining up with the Army of the Light and, upon returning, left it when she saw the state of things, but given she was gone long enough to be presumed dead, was a warrior for the Alliance when she disappeared, and maintained her allegiance against the Horde when she returned, it's hard to say she really betrayed anyone. Especially for Vereesa, who is a citizen of Dalaran and thus not affiliated with the nation of Quel'thalas, there can really be no implications of treason against Quel'thelas (whether she committed treason against Dalaran in the purge is a different matter beyond the scope of this thread).

As for the Ren'dorei, it really depends on the scope of their exile. If they lost their citizenship to Quel'thelas, it's hard to say they could be traitors. If they maintained it and then defected to the enemy, then they are. I don't see any satisfying answers in that regard. Were they illegally squatting in the Ghostlands, or were they given that land by the government to conduct their forbidden research? I can't find the answers, so if anyone has added insight, I'd love to hear it.

[Florena]

Thing is, both Vereesa and Alleria still consider Quel'thalas their home, regardless of the choices they've made in their lives.

In Alleria's case it's more forgivable, as she did approach the current regime in peace and was treated with respect. What quickly killed that relationship was her affinity to the Void as it posed an existential threat to the source of sin'dorei's collective nourishment. The blood elves simply need the Sunwell, as they don't have a magical fruit tree to snap them out of their addiction. This need was the basis for their more reprehensible deeds in the past, such as feeding on fel and enslaving a naaru, which I think they saw as the lesser evil when compared to becoming a wretched.

Vereesa can go fuck herself though. After the Purge she has no business setting foot in Quel'thalas. I see some people here trying to whitewash that event, but anyone who participated in 5.1 saw clearly what was up. Officially the Sunreavers were to be imprisoned, but in practice the Silver Covenant was unhinged in the routing of their hated counterpart, plainly murdering people, even feeding them to a shark in the sewers. One of the named targets for Alliance players is a shopkeeper in the trading district. She's marked hostile, but that's a game mechanic. Imagine the situation from a more realistic premise: She started her day along her co-workers in the shop like any other day, hears some noise coming up outside, someone barges in with the orders of detaining/killing her. No idea what's going on or why, she would resist or demand an explanation. She's then summarily killed in front of her co-workers. There's no way around it, the Purge was a dark event. I think even Jaina has come to regret it, or at least considers it too extreme, if her feelings about Alleria's and Turalyon's interrogation method's in Shadows Rising is anything to go by.

Valeera's cool. Loyal to a friend and his family rather than any nation, she's a true world citizen. Not like her nation of origin ever did anything for her.

The problem with the purge of dalaran is that the two different questlines show the opposite faciton in the worst light to the extent it feels more like two separate events in the alliance vs horde quests rather than two sides of the same coin. If someone just plays the alliance side they don't see the SC being thugs for example.

[GreenJesus]

Void elves and members of the Silver Covenant are for directly antagozing the Blood Elves on the battlefield and locking them up/killing them in Dalaran. High elves in general? No.

[qwerty123456]

And since you can't pay attention, the shopkeepers in questions did not reside in the Sunreaver Enclave. Their shops were in the neutral central plaza of the city. Making the remarks about what the Sunreavers in the Sunreaver Enclave were doing immaterial to them. That is a fact. Likewise, Vereesa not saying anything about the shopkeepers engaging in any aggression is also a fact. So spare me your desperate remarks about be being blinded to facts because of my "Horde fanaticism", because you don't have a shred of credibility to making such accusations. Instead you're only climbing the peaks of irony with them.

To make your narrative collapse on itself even more than it already did, your claim that the the Nowhere to Hide quest that you quoted happens before the shopkeeper one is a an outright lie. Those quests happen concurrently and you can finish them in any order (meaning that when fighting was taking place at the Enclave, Vereesa mentioned nothing of the sort happening in the trade district at the same time). Which causes your already non-existent credibility to somehow sink even lower. Congrats on this tremendous achievement, I guess.




No, I'm trying to "delude" myself into thinking that when a zealous anti-Sunreaver lunatic like Vereesa doesn't mention anything about the shopkeepers in question engaging in violence even though there was fighting happening on in other areas at the same time and outright questions Jaina's decisions in regards to them then there's squat supporting the notion that they engaged in any violence. And yes, a group built on their hatred of Sunreavers (the Silver Covenant was created in response to Aethas convincing the Kirin Tor to let the Blood Elves back in) and whose members were feeding people to a shark during the very same questline was totally against slaughtering randoms. Because their characters were simply beyond reproach.




Yes, people raising their weapons in defense when faced with a zealous militia that had no legal standing in the power structure of Dalaran, enforcing an illegal order as Jaina had no authority to perform the Purge without the assent of the rest of the Council of Six is indeed not them attacking. The fact that you need that explained is rather sad. Sad, but not surprising. What's next, you'll tell me that Aethas guards that Jaina killed also "attacked" her by simply raising their weapons?




Except what the Alliance was doing specifically in the Horde camp was immaterial to their objective of them keeping the operation secret. The Alliance could have been having dance parties there and the Horde objective would have remained the same: make the operation secret again by removing those that learned of the secret. Meanwhile the potential previous engagement with the Horde was not immaterial to the Alliance. It was of vital importance to the Alliance character, who should have been made aware that the Alliance spying operation had already been made and that the Horde was on a high alert. Yet nothing of the sort happened. Gee, I wonder why.

Besides, like I already mentioned, it was a Horde camp, making the Alliance operatives there intruders and putting them in the wrong. Meanwhile the Horde has all the right in the world to dispose of foreign agents trespassing in their outposts. So even if your take made any logical sense, which it does not, it still wouldn't have vindicated the Alliance.




And? He's addressing a hypothetical Alliance presence in context of the secrecy of their operation. He doesn't mention any such occurrence actually taking place. Dafuq is that supposed to prove other than the fact that you apparently don't understand what the word "if" means?




Yet another warning about potential events that doesn't establish any actual fighting taking place. But hey, if you can't spot a hypothetical that outright contains the word "if" I guess you can't be expected to spot out one that does not.




Because the estimates of some random Gnome are the truth of the world? Oh, whoopsie, the Alliance was repeatedly surprised about the scope of the Horde's interest in Silithus and the amount of resources they had been sending there in both Before the Storm and Elegy. It seems the guesswork by said random Gnome turned out not to pan out.




What does the ability to travel faster have anything to do with anything? There's not a single word uttered about how long it took either side to travel there or the initial quests taking place at the same exact time. Never mind that you can simply take a portal to Silithus.




Yes, a Horde mining site is totally not a part of their camp. I guess you need an actual sign saying "camp" for it to register as a camp in your mind. Because the multiple structures erected across the mining area didn't seem to do the trick.

Also, I didn't say a word about Silithus being Horde territory. I said that Horde camp in Silithus was Horde territory. And even the Horde camp in the zone before Sargeras scorched the region was never contested, even though the Alliance complained aplenty about Horde incursions into Night Elven lands since Vanilla. Because the zone was contested since Vanilla and the only Night Elven presence in the zone came from neutral Druids. And even that presence was wiped out by Sargeras.

On top of that, while I didn't say anything about Horde owning the entirety of Silithus, the Alliance leaders - Tyrande and Malfurion included - flat out discussed the prospect of the Horde claiming the entirety of Silithus. And would you look at that, not a single one of them raised any issue about the zone already being owned by them, making the potential Horde claim invalid or an act of aggression. Not one of them phrased the Night Elf expedition as protecting an Alliance zone from a Horde invasion. Instead they talked about protecting their interests because they were afraid of Horde monopolizing Azerite and Tyrande herself mentioned that Night Elves are prepared to establish a foothold in the zone. Yup, top notch Alliance territory you got there. So Alliance they didn't even have a foothold.




Yes, the High Elves that weren't mentioned in the OP don't count to the premise of the OP. Complicated concept fer sure. Also, being told back to the place you came from does not equal being banished, because words mean things. Another complicated apparently. At least for some people. In the same vein, when Lor'themar actually talked about kicking Alleria out, he did so in context of Silvermoon instead of Quel'Thalas as a whole. Which is what you mentioned. Quoted word for word, even. Yet you couldn't understand what you were quoting. Making your reasons for quoting it curious indeed.

You really like digging your hole deeper dont you?

The quest literally states the neutral shopkeepers were given a choice of siding with them or leaving, they refused and took up arms. Also to connect to your Silithus answer, who ran Dalaran? So according to your response about Silithus they were well within their right killing anyone who refused to leave.

Did you not look at the video of the quest? unless you count half of Silithus as a Horde camp. Also this was at a time of a truce. Where were the papers the Horde sent to the Alliance mentioning claiming the territory? They didn't???? When did they capture and detain the spies and ask the Alliance to stay out of the region? They didn't???? OHHHHH yeah thats right they just straight up murdered them so the Alliance wouldn't know whats going on. The Alliance were in an area near an unofficial Horde camp and they were instantly slaughtered without a warning and yet its somehow thier fault. Ok bud lol.

Yeah he says if there are Alliance kill them. Which you realize proves the Alliance didn't attack first since the camp hasn't been attacked yet right? Or are you going to tell me that multiple questgivers forgot about all the death and destruction the Alliance did???

Why is it that I can repeatedly post the quests but all you can do is say "no lol, quests aren't real."

Funny how you keep trying to say he just wanted her out of silvermoon when he specifically tells her to go back to the Alliance. Clearly he was just asking her to go live in Org.....

[Ielenia]

Which again is pretty much the core essence of treason.

When you on your own accord decide to ally yourself with an enemy state or a rogue state, you'd be: ... a traitor.

Except the Alliance wasn't "the enemy state" or a "rogue state" when she allied herself with them. Then she spent a little more than a thousand years fighting the Burning Legion alongside another group and her lover who was part of the Alliance. By the time she returns to Azeroth, I imagine she has spent more time away from Quel'thalas, than in Quel'thalas. She more reasons to join the Alliance than the Horde, considering that the man she loves and has been with, along with all the draenei she fought side-by-side, have joined the Alliance.

[Thage]

No, and for a very simple reason: a country that exiles people and strips them of citizenship relinquishes its claim to them; you can't throw someone out and then say they betrayed you when they work for someone else. If the UK were to kick out every person of Irish descent from its territories and they then join Ireland when Ireland declares war, the UK doesn't get to call foul when it stabbed them in the back first.

[Ardenaso]

No, and for a very simple reason: a country that exiles people and strips them of citizenship relinquishes its claim to them; you can't throw someone out and then say they betrayed you when they work for someone else. If the UK were to kick out every person of Irish descent from its territories and they then join Ireland when Ireland declares war, the UK doesn't get to call foul when it stabbed them in the back first.

to be fair Lor'themar didn't permanently kicked Umbric and his comrades off like some criminals shipped to Guam/Australia; he just put them a restraining order of like 20 kilometers away from the Sunwell