9/11: 20th Anniversary

[postman1782]

I wish 9/11 was the worst thing Bush did

You think Bush did 9/11?

[Huehuecoyotl]

I was working from home that day, in my old house. Had the TV on in the background, where the news was talking about a plane hitting a tower. As the live news report was on, you suddenly saw a second plane heading towards the second tower. And the fact that it wasn't some bizarre accident become apparent.

At least that's how I remember it. Knowing how unreliable anyone's memory is, there's every chance I might have that wrong.

[Egomaniac]

You think Bush did 9/11?

Not only that....he thinks Bush did at least one thing that was worse.

[breadisfunny]

was in 1st period science class when the announcement was made that the world trade center had been hit and for the teachers to turn on the tv and turn to the news channel.

[Egomaniac]

To start, I'm Canadian and I'm on the West Coast so it wasn't quite as impactful to me personally... but it was still a very big deal.

I was asleep and was woken up by a phone call from my mom. I was about to chew her out for calling me at like 6 am (remember...West coast...so it was 3 hours earlier) but I could tell from her voice she was upset.

She told me to turn on the TV and that there was going to be war now.

I took the morning off from my classes at college and sat glued to the TV for the next few hours. At a certain point there stopped being any significant updates for a bit so I got on with my day.

When I went to my afternoon classes...the campus was mostly empty...the few people that were there were all looking at the closest television. Technically, classes were still on...but all the ones I went to we kind of skipped whatever the lesson plan was and just kinda talked about the attack. I assume it was like that for everyone else's classes.

[Omega10]

Not only that....he thinks Bush did at least one thing that was worse.

Lying about WMDs in Iraq and sending our troops there and attacking Afghanistan was worse.

We lost 2x as many troops in these places as people we lost on 9/11, and the economic cost was substantially more. Plus he established the idea that US Presidents have the freedom to lie whenever needed. His approval rating soared to 90%, and it didn't drop because of being called out for his lies, it went down because the war never really that well for the US and for the mancession that happened in his second term.

So yeah, what he followed up 9/11 with was much worse than 9/11 itself. By a lot.

[Egomaniac]

Lying about WMDs in Iraq and sending our troops there and attacking Afghanistan was worse.

We lost 2x as many troops in these places as people we lost on 9/11, and the economic cost was substantially more. Plus he established the idea that US Presidents have the freedom to lie whenever needed. His approval rating soared to 90%, and it didn't drop because of being called out for his lies, it went down because the war never really that well for the US and for the mancession that happened in his second term.

So yeah, what he followed up 9/11 with was much worse than 9/11 itself. By a lot.

So, you also think that Bush orchestrated 9/11? And you think that anything he did after that was worse?

[Rustedsaint]

Canadian
Was at school grade 7ish and people started talking about an attack in the USA. It wasn’t till I got home that I realized the extent of the damage.

[caervek]

saudi arabia was never a US friend and it will never be.

O.o

The friendship between the US and Saudi Arabia was the reason Osama was waging a private war against the US and the Saudi government in the first place lol.

[postman1782]

saudi arabia was never a US friend and it will never be. It's a horribly evil regime that we're neutral with for geopolitical reasons. The only reason we didn't kill the shit out of them for 9/11 was because there's a lot to lose in resources and also destroying SA would incite more islamic terrorism and anarchy.

They recently also tortured and dismembered a US citizen to death but, for the same reasons, we let them go

The middle east is so unsalvagable in any way it's really a question of what anything can be done about it. 20 years later and nothing's changed

Should probably tell that to Trump, whom you literally do everything you can to defend, because he gave them everything they wanted, including defending them after the crowned prince murdered Kashoggi in that embassy.

[Forogil]

I was futzing around before heading in to university classes (I had a late morning start that day, maybe early afternoon); I was literally just waking up and having my morning caffeine, browsing (I think) Fark.com, a news aggregator, when notice of the first plane hit the front page there.

I turned on my TV and watched the second plane strike live.



If you're gonna be blasting someone else for lying, know what you're talking about first, maybe?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...tan.terrorism5
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archi...-55e5ca34a70a/

There very clearly was an offer by the Taliban to turn him over.

No, it was a misleading statement from another bad faith poster.

Some context.
After 9/11 Bush demanded that the Taliban:

• Deliver to the US all of the leaders of Al-Qaeda
• Release all foreign nationals that have been unjustly imprisoned
• Protect foreign journalists, diplomats, and aid workers
• Close immediately every terrorist training camp
• Hand over every terrorist and their supporters to appropriate authorities
• Give the United States full access to terrorist training camps for inspection

Did the Taliban offer concession for anything besides the first point?
No.
Did they offer to hand over anyone besides bin Laden?
No.
Did they offer to hand over bin Laden to the US to be tried under US jurisdiction?
No and No.

What they offered were that bin Laden was tried in an Afghan court or possibly in Pakistan, but under Islamic law, while also spreading wild conspiracy theories about Jews and WTC.

This response was generally dismissed as a delaying tactic, rather than a sincere attempt to cooperate with the ultimatum.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban#Prelude
With what we now know about Pakistan we see that it wasn't a real offer.

[JohnBrown1917]

So, you also think that Bush orchestrated 9/11? And you think that anything he did after that was worse?

Nothing seems to suggest that in that post? But yeah, I also agree the US response caused far more damage, by a lot.

[Forogil]

The good ol’ days when people would see their loved ones off at the gate.

And when actually had your own passport and didn't get back some stranger's passport from the TSA.

[Themius]

No, it was a misleading statement from another bad faith poster.

Some context.
After 9/11 Bush demanded that the Taliban:

• Deliver to the US all of the leaders of Al-Qaeda
• Release all foreign nationals that have been unjustly imprisoned
• Protect foreign journalists, diplomats, and aid workers
• Close immediately every terrorist training camp
• Hand over every terrorist and their supporters to appropriate authorities
• Give the United States full access to terrorist training camps for inspection

Did the Taliban offer concession for anything besides the first point?
No.
Did they offer to hand over anyone besides bin Laden?
No.
Did they offer to hand over bin Laden to the US to be tried under US jurisdiction?
No and No.

What they offered were that bin Laden was tried in an Afghan court or possibly in Pakistan, but under Islamic law, while also spreading wild conspiracy theories about Jews and WTC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban#Prelude
With what we now know about Pakistan we see that it wasn't a real offer.

handing over to a third party was an option which the usa didn't want. The usa also didn't want to stop droning, something the Taliban asked for later in exchange for Bin Ladin. Which I you think about it, why would the USA still need to attack and drone them if they got their objective?

I'm sorry that you believe USA should have jurisdiction over the entire fucking earth, but if they say "use a third party" outrage over that is stupid.

Also there's that whole bit about how we killed one of the guys who would have been able to orchestrate this shortly after one of the offers.

[Egomaniac]

Nothing seems to suggest that in that post? But yeah, I also agree the US response caused far more damage, but a lot.

You should probably follow the post chain back to the original source...which was this comment here:

I wish 9/11 was the worst thing Bush did

Which does indeed "suggest" that:



See, I'm not saying that "George W. Bush was the greatest President ever and his response to 9/11 was totally the awesomeist". No, that shit was terrible...his entire administration should have faced charges.

I'm addressing the conspiracy theory that George W. Bush orchestrated that attacks on September 11, 2001.

[Themius]

Nothing seems to suggest that in that post? But yeah, I also agree the US response caused far more damage, but a lot.

I am a New Yorker and I will say everything following was far worse.

Literally the debt we have could have saved MILLIONS OF PEOPLE from deaths tied directly to poverty. Healthcare, homelessness, mental health, food security. Could have been paid for and saved millions. But hey given the USA would never do that..

hundreds of thousands of civilians wouldn't have died. I mean considering what we've done apparently it's now okay if Iraq wants to just carpet bomb Texas to get the Bush Family. The civilians are just "collateral damage"

[Omega10]

So, you also think that Bush orchestrated 9/11? And you think that anything he did after that was worse?

I don't think that Bush orchestrated 9/11. He definitely failed to stop it.

But the US reaction to 9/11 did a LOT more damage to the US than 9/11 itself. Orders of magnitude worse. After 9/11, "We are all Americans." After 20 years of continuing to react to 9/11, "Americans are the greatest threat to peace in the world." We did that to ourselves.

The lies that he told changed the way the world looks at US Presidents. As Al Jaezarra said around the time of the capturing of Bin Laden "The Obama administration told 3 stories as to what happened during the raid. At least 2 of them were lies." And of course, after Obama came a President that told more lies in 4 years than Bush and Obama combined in 16.

Bush even lied about the National Deficits that he racked up during his term. Add up the national deficits of his 8 years as President and you get around $3 trillion. The national debt went from $5 trillion to $11 trillion during his term - around $6 trillion. Basically he put around $3 trillion of defense stuff as "indispensable spending" or something like that and removed that spending from our official national deficit for the time he was in office. Obama rescinded that rule once he got into office, but the official national deficits racked up by Bush are just flat out lies.

So yeah, these kinds of events hurt the US far more than 9/11 itself. Bin Laden wanted the US to attack the Middle East to punish the US and the Middle East for something or other (stationing US troops in sacred lands? something like that). Bush fell into his trap hook, line, and sinker. His surviving supporters are ecstatic at how well his plan turned out.

Before: "We are all Americans now." After: "America is the number 1 threat to peace in the world."

[Forogil]

handing over to a third party was an option which the usa didn't want.

Another misleading statement from a bad faith poster; who have proven time and again that they are aware of the facts but deliberately distort them.

It wasn't "a third party"; they were talking about handing over bin Laden to at most an islamic court in Pakistan - while talking about the conspiracy of Jews knowing about WTC. The same Pakistan that had some ties with the Taliban and where bin Laden would later seek refuge.

[Queen of Hamsters]

I was at school. Suddenly our principal came in, pale as a ghost, slurring that teachers should send all the kids home. I got home and turned on the tv, and it was still not understood at that time that there'd been an attack.

As I'm standing there, the second plane comes. After that I remember hearing "This is an attack!" and that's it.

[Themius]

Another misleading statement from a bad faith poster; who have proven time and again that they are aware of the facts but deliberately distort them.

It wasn't "a third party"; they were talking about handing over bin Laden to at most an islamic court in Pakistan - while talking about the conspiracy of Jews knowing about WTC. The same Pakistan that had some ties with the Taliban and where bin Laden would later seek refuge.

Wait you call me bad faith and then mention a third party? Remarkable. Us not liking them doesn't magically mean Pakistan == Afghanistan. Or do you not know how geography works?