I feel optimistic about WoW

[Kalocy Jim]

Not to derail too badly, but I think this is a spot where FFXIV really shines. You can experience the breadth of the game on a single character. That's not really true of WoW with its faction system and current Covenants and the like. There are types of gameplay and specific narratives that you are required to have at least one alt to enjoy.

Not really accurate. I've gone back in past expansions to complete content or do things that would have been experienced had I had an alt or alts to do them.

Especially as it relates to story, that stuff can be done later on freely. I don't feel a compelling need to make alt characters so I can "experience" the story from a different covenant perspective. Youtube exists for a reason. I didn't get into high end raiding until TBC, but in vanilla i watched youtube videos of the content and it helped me aspire to see it for myself in game.

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There actually is some sparse info in the investor reports but as of the last one there’s no hint of sub loss they have actually reported a rise in either subs or MAU for wow for the past 7/8 or so reports.

Also, this^.

[Doffen]

I also feel optimistic, seeing we get Legion Mythic+ back on the menu!!

Legion <3
Court of Stars <3

[Relapses]

Quite frankly, the "altoholic" crowd burns themselves out because of their addiction.

This isn't even true. If you aren't raiding or pushing WF keys there's barely any reason to grind out any of the optional systems in 9.1. I have 5 toons with KSM and I'm halfway there on 6 and 7. I'm completing keys in the 18-19 range and have a personal goal to get all 20s on as many toons as I can this Tier. I don't even do that many keys. (Probably more than average because I play a lot of alts, but I digress.) Playing your characters well is far more valuable than anything you can get from the optional systems Blizzard develops to appease casuals.

[draugril]

Not really accurate. I've gone back in past expansions to complete content or do things that would have been experienced had I had an alt or alts to do them.

Especially as it relates to story, that stuff can be done later on freely. I don't feel a compelling need to make alt characters so I can "experience" the story from a different covenant perspective. Youtube exists for a reason. I didn't get into high end raiding until TBC, but in vanilla i watched youtube videos of the content and it helped me aspire to see it for myself in game..

I mean, if you completely reframe what you believe is "accurate" to personal preference, of course it's not going to be "accurate" by that standard. But it is factually true. WoW has a myriad of different stories that can only be experienced by one faction. It has some choices that allow you to experience narratives from a certain perspective outside of faction considerations. You cannot experience all classes on a single character, and you cannot even experience all roles on most.

If you like to experience the whole breadth of a game, WoW requires you to have multiple characters. I think this contributes to a lot of the fatigue going on right now, particularly when the repetitious elements are so... pronounced. FFXIV does not require you to have multiple characters. In fact, I think it skews too far in the opposite direction in that you are actively discouraged from maintaining multiple characters.

[Relapses]

I mean, if you completely reframe what you believe is "accurate" to personal preference, of course it's not going to be "accurate" by that standard. But it is factually true. WoW has a myriad of different stories that can only be experienced by one faction. It has some choices that allow you to experience narratives from a certain perspective outside of faction considerations. You cannot experience all classes on a single character, and you cannot even experience all roles on most.

If you like to experience the whole breadth of a game, WoW requires you to have multiple characters. I think this contributes to a lot of the fatigue going on right now, particularly when the repetitious elements are so... pronounced. FFXIV does not require you to have multiple characters. In fact, I think it skews too far in the opposite direction in that you are actively discouraged from maintaining multiple characters.

It's almost like WoW and FFXIV are different games designed to appeal to two different audiences.

[draugril]

It's almost like WoW and FFXIV are different games designed to appeal to two different audiences.

I never said they weren't?

[Relapses]

I never said they weren't?

You're the one that brought up FFXIV completely unprompted. I guess it was just more evidence of the meme: You don't need to ask a FFXIV player whether they play the game, they'll let you know.

[ClassicPeon]

Maybe. The issue is really one of reacting to feedback which is a very different thing that learning from feedback. We're seeing the former, not the latter (yet) and won't until the next expansion rolls around and we know some details.

I havent posted in a while, in fact i havent been on the site in a while because i stopped playing wow.

Had to just log back in to say that i completely agree.

What we are seeing is the usual lightbulb after a few months of ignoring feedback. It feels like that nyway.

Until i start seing some actual changes - good ideas come to the table i'm done. For the first time ever raiding felt so unrewarding in shadowlands that it couldnt keep me subbed.

Tried new world beta but its a turd. And as opposed to wow its an unpolioshed one. Would call it straight to dvd if it was a movie. Its gonna be forgotten in 5 months.

sad times

[Kalocy Jim]

This isn't even true. If you aren't raiding or pushing WF keys there's barely any reason to grind out any of the optional systems in 9.1. I have 5 toons with KSM and I'm halfway there on 6 and 7. I'm completing keys in the 18-19 range and have a personal goal to get all 20s on as many toons as I can this Tier. I don't even do that many keys. (Probably more than average because I play a lot of alts, but I digress.) Playing your characters well is far more valuable than anything you can get from the optional systems Blizzard develops to appease casuals.

Well it seems like you have some clear cut goals for the characters that you do play.

I'm talking about the people who complain about anima grinding, covenant grinding to get all the cosmetics for each armor class in each covenant. Other examples like this as well. These people do it to themselves, and burn themselves out.

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I mean, if you completely reframe what you believe is "accurate" to personal preference, of course it's not going to be "accurate" by that standard. But it is factually true. WoW has a myriad of different stories that can only be experienced by one faction. It has some choices that allow you to experience narratives from a certain perspective outside of faction considerations. You cannot experience all classes on a single character, and you cannot even experience all roles on most.

If you like to experience the whole breadth of a game, WoW requires you to have multiple characters. I think this contributes to a lot of the fatigue going on right now, particularly when the repetitious elements are so... pronounced. FFXIV does not require you to have multiple characters. In fact, I think it skews too far in the opposite direction in that you are actively discouraged from maintaining multiple characters.

I don't think this is unique to WoW. An example off the top of my head is SWTOR, you cant experience all the story with just 1 character. You have to make 8 different characters 4 on each faction to experience everything. Is that a problem? No not really, it just represents more content that players can potentially do, and they don't have to do it while its current content. Story can be played at any time.

[Amariw]

...Comparing the amount of non-raiding/mythic+ content for casuals in the game now, or in BfA or Legion to early expansions is a joke. You think there's no world for casual mmo players here and now? What the fuck were they doing in BC and MoP when the only thing besides heroics, raids and arena for casuals was dailies? What were they doing in Wrath where the only thing outside of Raiding and PvP was spamming heroics? Wrath was the biggest, most casual expansion of the entire game's history and it was the most instance lobby time period the game has ever had.

Can only speak for myself but i gotta say the solo content does feel hollow since Legion. In MoP you had both timeless and thunder isles and they were actually fun (a combination of elites with mechanics, useful catchup and a plethora of activities, some chiller some challenging). WoD only had those 0-100% completion zones, but atleast they had cool mobs like those illidan-lookalike demons in shadowmoon, and class design was fun enough that plain solo pve combat wasn't stale.

Pvp was also a fun casual pasttime because you got really good starting gear without any grinds (unlike now where m+ can give you versatility gear close to the mid/high rated ranks, whereas pure pvp players will get stomped if they just try to bg or arena). Arena wasn't "casual" per se, but could be done with little time commitment with friends.

Nowdays all of this isn't true for pvp and its become another gated activity for no good reason. As for the outdoors...Korthia and assaults aren't the worse ever, but the lack of elites except stuff you're meant to avoid simply makes it stale. Ganging on named rares isn't fun cuzz they die in seconds withotu you seeing any threat from their mechanics.

This might be only my opinion but i also feel the zones are very small and stale. Nazjatar in bfa had the same problem of not giving you any reason to fight the (rather cool) elites it had, but atleast it was a beautiful widespread zone.

[TidalConflux]

All I can say is -- people tend to remember expansions like Wrath and Legion not for their opening patches or their strong suites being to things outside the X.0 patch. While SL is not Wrath but probably more like Legion imo (I think Legion is average): Ill wait and see what happens -- these changes were bound to happen at the X.1.5 patch similar to how its been the past two expansions.

[Empower]

It's an interesting concept.

If you play the game and do primarily everything on 1 or maybe max 2 characters, then those players really don't have much issue with the game. One occasional streamer that I watch primarily for his work out streams is Bajherra. He made a comment recently similar to this, that if you play only a main, or maybe 2 at max, you have a ton of stuff to do and enjoy the game a lot because you aren't having to repeat the same systems 12 different times.

I get that playing alts is fun for people, but don't expect to be perfectly optimal on all your alts, or be prepared to spend the time and effort necessary if you do want to be optimal. That's actually one of the things I like about the current state of the game. It rewards people who play 1 or 2 characters because we don't have to do "the grind" on 12 or more alts.

Quite frankly, the "altoholic" crowd burns themselves out because of their addiction.

Why should I need to expend effort on easy content...?

I can do a 20 on my alt and kill mythic bosses yet I'm told to do months of dailies for conduits.

Why? What possible purpose does it serve beyond wasting my time? The change to choreghast is decent least I can chain run that and get it out of the way in 9.15.

I don't understand why making me waste time is seen as a positive.

[Relapses]

Why should I need to expend effort on easy content...?

I can do a 20 on my alt and kill mythic bosses yet I'm told to do months of dailies for conduits.

By whom? Daddy Ion? Maybe for raiding it's slightly more relevant (probably not at all necessary but parse culture is a thing in raiding way more than M+) but you sure as shit don't need max level Conduits to do 20s.

[draugril]

I don't think this is unique to WoW. An example off the top of my head is SWTOR, you cant experience all the story with just 1 character. You have to make 8 different characters 4 on each faction to experience everything. Is that a problem? No not really, it just represents more content that players can potentially do, and they don't have to do it while its current content. Story can be played at any time.

Starting out in SW:TOR, you bet. It remains as the best story-driven experience out of the box in the MMO space in my book. But keep in mind that SW:TOR has always sold its story and rolling alts as an actual focus of the game through the Legacy system - not simply incidental as it is in most other MMOs. It also gives you the illusion of a completely fresh experience even replaying the same stories by providing you with branching dialogue options with different consequences. I have two very different Sith Warriors, at least in my mind, even though they did the exact same content. There's no easy solution here for WoW - alt skips are nice (particularly the incoming one for the Maw), but I think those skips are admitting defeat. Instead of the same content remaining engaging through a different lens, they're admitting that it's a chore by letting you skip it without having to make it engaging in the first place.

I think the crux of the issue is that WoW has become laser focused on the endgame loot treadmill. If that has always been your primary interest in WoW, you're not going to see a difference over the years. But at this point... levelling really only exists as an obligation to tradition. It no longer serves as its own content stream because the design philosophy completely focuses on the endpoint. Because of this, just getting your main to the endgame has become a slog, let alone additional characters.

[Kalocy Jim]

Why should I need to expend effort on easy content...?

I can do a 20 on my alt and kill mythic bosses yet I'm told to do months of dailies for conduits.

Why? What possible purpose does it serve beyond wasting my time? The change to choreghast is decent least I can chain run that and get it out of the way in 9.15.

I don't understand why making me waste time is seen as a positive.

Why did you have to attune every character you wanted to enter Karazhan, SSC, TK, BT, Hyjal in TBC?

Its a completely different class and character. Why should you be able to easily be just as powerful as a main where the majority of a player's time is spent?

The whole concept of you can be extremely good at 1 thing, or mediocre to decent at many.

[Echo of Soul]

Also, this^.

Bellular did a video about it if you care to know the truth. Data doesn't lie.

Sure you'll probably be able to spin it in a way where you can continue to believe what feels true to you. Everyone else knows that they lost half or more of their players so I don't think anyone cares whatever your personal delusion says.

[Quaade]

With all the positive changes to the game coming in 9.1.5, I can't help feel optimistic about the game and the direction they are heading in with it.

I'm excited to see what 9.2 brings, and 9.3, and eventually a new expansion in 10.0. I bet they will plan some massive expansion for 10.0 to celebrate 20 years of WoW.

Do you feel optimistic about WoW and where its headed?

The first positive change would start with the firing of Ion, no removal, just complete firing, and then get a game director who actually plays other games. WoW started taking a nose-dive when the game directors stopped playing other games to get inspired.

[Relapses]

Bellular did a video about it if you care to know the truth. Data doesn't lie.

Sure you'll probably be able to spin it in a way where you can continue to believe what feels true to you. Everyone else knows that they lost half or more of their players so I don't think anyone cares whatever your personal delusion says.

Incorrect. Bellular made a video with imaginary numbers and you're using his shitty unsubstantiated talking points to support your negative opinion of the current state of the game. You can do this, but please don't pretend like his "data" is any more relevant than a 5-year-old drawing with crayons on the wall simply because you agree with his shit take and made-up information.

[Empower]

By whom? Daddy Ion? Maybe for raiding it's slightly more relevant (probably not at all necessary but parse culture is a thing in raiding way more than M+) but you sure as shit don't need max level Conduits to do 20s.

You don't but depending on class they can swing dmg during burn phases heavily and it is extremely valued. Some classes honestly don't notice others its crippling.

It's the dumbest most I'll thought out system I've seen since corruption... maybe worse? Corruption the pain was at least felt equally.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Bellular did a video about it if you care to know the truth. Data doesn't lie.

Sure you'll probably be able to spin it in a way where you can continue to believe what feels true to you. Everyone else knows that they lost half or more of their players so I don't think anyone cares whatever your personal delusion says.

Ever hear the term “Figures don't lie, but liars figure.” Because that’s pretty much belluar in a nut shell.

Some one spinning number to feed people what ever they want no matter if the numbers are taken out of context or incorrect.