I feel optimistic about WoW

[Relapses]

There's no point in engaging with people if literally every single data point you bring up gets dismissed and then the person just goes, "Nope no problems here!"

Yeah, don't engage with a bad faith argument when your evidence is non-existent question mark?

[arkanon]

• Not all players achieve AOTC
• Not all players run M+
• Not all players participate in Arena/RBGs

Congratulations, your entire argument has been defeated.

Congratulations, you failed to understand what is being compared. They are comparing those who do from X date, to those who do on Y date. No one EVER claimed everyone completes that content. Since there is such a substantial, i would say dramatic drop off in people completing that content patch on patch than before, one of two things has happened: Either a massive number of people who traditionally completed that content have for whatever reason suddenly stopped doing that content, or, they have stopped playing the game.

Considering that M+, raiding, and pvp have not undergone any major changes in a very long time, it seems highly unlikely that a substantial number of players would abruptly stop playing their preferred content, but continue playing the game.

[Relapses]

Congratulations, you failed to understand what is being compared. They are comparing those who do from X date, to those who do on Y date. No one EVER claimed everyone completes that content. Since there is such a substantial, i would say dramatic drop off in people completing that content patch on patch than before, one of two things has happened: Either a massive number of people who traditionally completed that content have for whatever reason suddenly stopped doing that content, or, they have stopped playing the game.

Or, better yet, more people are playing the game doing shit that doesn't involve those activities. But hey, I wouldn't want to throw a wrench in your "everything sucks and here's evidence" approach to analyzing imaginary numbers so sure, keep on believing whatever it is you believe. Out of curiosity, what is the average quality of the fridge magnets you get from Bellular's Patreon?

[Drindorai]

Yeah, don't engage with a bad faith argument when your evidence is non-existent question mark?

You can call the data non-existent until you're red in the face, that does not make it so.

You do realize the people making the game worse and resulting in more and more people leaving are those whose heads are in the sand, like you, right?

You are the problem and you don't even realize it. It's rather sad. But also interesting to watch.

Out of curiosity, what is the average quality of the fridge magnets you get from Bellular's Patreon?

Yup everyone who dislikes the current game are Bellular fanboys. You got it. At least during BfA the denialism was somewhat clever.

[arkanon]

Or, better yet, more people are playing the game doing shit that doesn't involve those activities. But hey, I wouldn't want to throw a wrench in your "everything sucks and here's evidence" approach to analyzing imaginary numbers so sure, keep on believing whatever it is you believe. Out of curiosity, what is the average quality of the fridge magnets you get from Bellular's Patreon?

Considering that M+, raiding, and pvp have not undergone any major changes in a very long time, it seems highly unlikely that a substantial number of players would abruptly stop playing their preferred content, but continue playing the game.

As i said - this has never happened before to this degree, as can be seen when comparing the data, so why now? And why over such varied and different forms of content? What changed?

[Echo of Soul]

"More people played our game AFTER launch than BEFORE we launched it!"

And the fans go wild!

I mean if you're extremely unintelligent I suppose you could get excited by them saying things like that during investor calls. Most of us should be able to see through it though.

[Indigenously Abled]

You can call the data non-existent until you're red in the face, that does not make it so.

You do realize the people making the game worse and resulting in more and more people leaving are those whose heads are in the sand, like you, right?

You are the problem and you don't even realize it. It's rather sad. But also interesting to watch.



Yup everyone who dislikes the current game are Bellular fanboys. You got it. At least during BfA the denialism was somewhat clever.

Ignore this dude. Any criticism of WoW that he doesn't agree with he attacks with the same drivel in every thread.

[arkanon]

I mean if you're extremely unintelligent I suppose you could get excited by them saying things like that during investor calls. Most of us should be able to see through it though.

I dont think its an intelligence thing - i think its a passion thing. Its like people know the truth, they know what a rediculous statement it is to proclaim "more people played the game after we launched it than before we launched it", but for some people, they are just so addicted, or so passionate about the product, they just hear what they want to hear and common sense goes out the window. Its like when you are watching football, and there is an obvious foul, and its clear for EVERYONE to see (punch to the face in open play, for example), but the fans will still boo the ref when their favorite team gets a player sent off.

[Echo of Soul]

• Not all players achieve AOTC
• Not all players run M+
• Not all players participate in Arena/RBGs

Congratulations, your entire argument has been defeated.

So millions of characters who previously did all those activities suddenly stopping to do so is normal to you?

[Drindorai]

Ignore this dude. Any criticism of WoW that he doesn't agree with he attacks with the same drivel in every thread.

Oh yeah I'm well aware, it's just fun watching them reveal it more and more as people try to get specific with them and they continue to just ignore it, like the OP.

[arkanon]

So millions of characters who previously did all those activities suddenly stopping to do so is normal to you?

This is the core of the argument being made - its not just that players have stopped doing X. Its that players have stopped doing X, Y, and Z, and in numbers never before seen. If any or all of XYZ had undergone substantial changes at launch, that might explain it, but that is not the case.

From memory, when M+ was introduced, raid participation, especially in normal and heroic, went DOWN initially, but obviously the people doing M+ went up (duh, it went up from 0), so its fair to say some of the players no longer doing raids had started doing M+ instead. Im sure when Arena was introduced, BG participation went down a bit, at least initially, and that is to be expected.

So the question is, why have so many people stopped doing the content they have previously done? If they didnt quit, as some are trying to suggest, where did they go? And we are not talking insignificant numbers here, its not a few percent, its huge numbers of characters who just suddenly stopped doing any of the main group content types, and........went where?

[Relapses]

You can call the data non-existent until you're red in the face, that does not make it so.

You do realize the people making the game worse and resulting in more and more people leaving are those whose heads are in the sand, like you, right?

You are the problem and you don't even realize it. It's rather sad. But also interesting to watch.

I'm the problem because I don't accept some random douchebag on YouTube's cynical, "data driven" approach to saying "WoW's dead." Yep. Why can't more people just accept all negative information that's presented to them at face value??? Sheep! They're all sheep!

Yup everyone who dislikes the current game are Bellular fanboys. You got it. At least during BfA the denialism was somewhat clever.

If the source of your cynicism comes from that tool's balding Englishman's very shitty, very inaccurate YouTube algorithm fapping material, yes.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

As i said - this has never happened before to this degree, as can be seen when comparing the data, so why now? And why over such varied and different forms of content? What changed?

I wonder where exactly is the data in question for one to compare? the actual belluar video doesn't have any links as such.

[Drindorai]

If the source of your cynicism comes from that tool's balding Englishman's very shitty, very inaccurate YouTube algorithm fapping material, yes.

I've noticed the more people bring up specifics and the more that you dismiss them, the more your insults just have devolved into something an 12 year old might say on 4chan in 2011.

Interesting, that.

[Relapses]

So millions of characters who previously did all those activities suddenly stopping to do so is normal to you?

"Millions" is a bit a stretch given the fact that the numbers are in no way verifiable. But hey, who needs inconvenient things like "actual data" when you can just write "WoW's dying" and you'll get a bunch of happy warm, fuzzy little updoots from the innumerable people on this forum who want nothing more than validation for their negative opinions. Because let's be honest here. This isn't about data or whether anything is able to be proven. This is about having people agree with you in your opinion. The browbeaten, real WoW fans who have the courage to stand up against Blizzard and use real data to combat the "toxic positivity" of people like myself and the OP who dare to enjoy a fucking video game even after the bald Englishman provided irrefutable, earth shattering evidence that the game is dead.

[Saravat]

I'm a little hesitant to reply as it looks like the OP may be just trying to set people up to be trolled. But I don't tend to obsess over/get involved in big back-and-forth debates on threads like this, so I guess I'll just chime in with an answer to the OP's question.

No. I don't feel optimistic at all, and this leaves me very sad. Blizzard seems to me to be in a very reactive - as opposed to thoughtful - place, and it's not appealing at all. I've played this game, and largely really enjoyed it, since vanilla beta. I've had occasional, inevitable disagreements with game direction, but I'm one of those players who never felt the need to cancel my account. And I have the statue to prove it.

Until now. I still can't quite believe I've done this but my account is canceled. I can't stomach logging into the game. The raiding guild I've been part of for over 10 years (made up of a welcoming, friendly, lovely group of people) has also left the game, and the whole thing has sort of broken my heart. But it feels wrong to support this company with a subscription at the moment.

I miss the game I once loved, so I will absolutely keep a close eye on the expansion, but I definitely won't return until then if I return at all. I'd like to say I am optimistic about the next expansion - I am a positive and solution-focused person by nature, but for now I feel decidedly neutral about it. We'll see.

I suppose I'm now at risk of being lectured for being too negative, or accusations of lying about how long I've played, or being told that I obviously am not thinking for myself and evil streamers must have been telling me what to think.

That's fine; people love to lecture others in threads like this. It's typical of internet arguments. All I know is that WoW has been one of the hobbies I looked to for relaxation, fun, and challenge. An era that brought me a tremendous amount of enjoyment, created some fantastic memories, and blessed me with some long-term friendships has ended, and I am just so sad about it.

[arkanon]

This isn't about data or whether anything is able to be proven.

Interesting, considering your entire argument against the data being discussed is that it cannot be proven. Why the sudden change of heart?

the numbers are in no way verifiable.

analyzing imaginary numbers

your evidence is non-existent

unsourced, completely erroneous data

The unsubstantiated numbers which support my negative opinion are the only real numbers you need to know

please don't pretend like his "data" is any more relevant than a 5-year-old drawing with crayons on the wall

Incorrect. Bellular made a video with imaginary numbers and you're using his shitty unsubstantiated talking points

"Objective verifiable data" from third party websites that aren't even close to knowing the full truth.

Incorrect, incomplete and totally unverifiable data

[Relapses]

Interesting, considering your entire argument against the data being discussed is that it cannot be proven. Why the sudden change of heart?

There's very little point in trying to "prove" to somebody that the imaginary numbers they hold onto so dearly were manufactured by a guy who profits directly from negativity against this game. Like I've said, you're free to believe whatever the fuck you want. It is, however, a bit distressing when multiple posters begin chain quoting you, asking you to then provide "alternative data," as if the only possible way to refute bullshit is, apparently, with more bullshit. But I digress. As I said in the rest of the post you didn't quote... this is less about being able to prove anything with data and more about people who dislike their negativity echo chamber being disturbed with inconvenient things like "an actual argument."

[arkanon]

this is less about being able to prove anything with data...

then why have you been saying this for 10 pages?

the numbers are in no way verifiable.

analyzing imaginary numbers

your evidence is non-existent

unsourced, completely erroneous data they're

The unsubstantiated numbers which support my negative opinion are the only real numbers you need to know

please don't pretend like his "data" is any more relevant than a 5-year-old drawing with crayons on the wall

Incorrect. Bellular made a video with imaginary numbers and you're using his shitty unsubstantiated talking points

"Objective verifiable data" from third party websites that aren't even close to knowing the full truth.

Incorrect, incomplete and totally unverifiable data

You say its not about the data, then you say its less about the data, but your entire argument IS about the data.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

then why have you been saying this for 10 pages?











You say its not about the data, then you say its less about the data, but your entire argument IS about the data.

So uh got any links to said data that's the entire argument?