Should the horde be made to pay for the crimes of their leaders?

[Zuben]

They should've, but they didn't.

I would support a war that provided objective victories and changes to the zoning on both sides. BFA led with what appeared to be that, but in the end it wasn't and the whole war was dismissed like it didn't happen.

[agentsi]

Simply put, much of the problems in the WoW lore can be directly attributed to horde leaders who have done horrible things. Should the horde be made to pay for those crimes in some way?

Also, would you support a fifth Alliance / horde war (in game or in books) where the Alliance actually wins ground and has objective victories for once?

As long as the alliance are made to pay for theirs, then sure.

[Addiena]

They should've, but they didn't.

I would support a war that provided objective victories and changes to the zoning on both sides. BFA led with what appeared to be that, but in the end it wasn't and the whole war was dismissed like it didn't happen.

Because it was shit and the directors who decided it was a good idea should be demoted.

[Accendor]

Simply put, much of the problems in the WoW lore can be directly attributed to horde leaders who have done horrible things. Should the horde be made to pay for those crimes in some way?

Also, would you support a fifth Alliance / horde war (in game or in books) where the Alliance actually wins ground and has objective victories for once?

1. The horrible things were done by the horde, not by its leaders. The leaders just ordered them. The whole storyline of BdA was that the horde in general is inherently evil, not only a few of it's leaders.

2. Ofc, yes, they should pay for it, but that is not gonna happen in any form that is relevant to the players. Realistically the horde should have been dismantlet after the events of BfA, but that can not happen because mmo.

Btw sorry again horde players, i know it's not what most of you wanted it what you identify with, but it's what Blizzard wants to go with

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Why would you punish the people for the actions of despot leaders ?

Its wrong in the real world and it would be wrong in a game, the people very rarely have a choice in what their leaders decide to do.

Even worse when its game devs deciding what the faction will be doing in game ...you really think Horde players wanted to do another asinine war with the Alliance ? or kill that many Nelfs ? no It was the game directors and devs that went in that stupid direction.

I think you should replay BfA where literally the whole horde is celebrating Teldrassil and the massacres in Ashenvale and Kul Tiras.
Thats the whole problem of BfA, it is very clearly shown that the horde fully supports the war. They are no victims or "had no choice". They simply enjoyed it.

I am not saying i like it, that's just the established lore from bfa.

[Minikin]

Simply put, much of the problems in the WoW lore can be directly attributed to horde leaders who have done horrible things. Should the horde be made to pay for those crimes in some way?

Also, would you support a fifth Alliance / horde war (in game or in books) where the Alliance actually wins ground and has objective victories for once?

nope. BfA was enough proof that this arc does nothing. end it at sylvanas and dont look back

[Val the Moofia Boss]

The Horde is a failed state. It has a barbarian/viking culture, is institutionally fascist, and is incredibly unstable. The Horde historically has a violent transition in power every 2 years, with Thrall to Garrosh being the only peaceful transition of power. The Horde has existed for 39 years since Blackhand became the first Warchief. For those 39 years, there has only been FOUR YEARS where the Horde wasn't a fascist, warmongering regime: the three years under Thrall from Vanilla through the end of Wrath, and the one year Vol'jin was warchief. FOUR YEARS out of 39. The Horde managed to be not evil for 10% of its existence. Also, your average Horde citizen still lives in poverty. It's pretty much North Korea, where all of the money and resources are being dedicated towards military assets... that still pale in comparison to assets of the other coalition they are trying to impress/intimidate.

The Horde needs to be dismantled, full stop. Occupy Orgrimmar and give a general order forbidding the mass congregation of Horde races, lest they are deemed as military build up and get wiped out. Institute a de-hordification program to pacify the populace. Begin civic works projects such as irrigation, clean water, houses that aren't mud huts, etc. Get these people to become subsistence farmers and fishermen. Anyone who wants to maintain their viking ways needs to get deported off the planet, probably to Outland or wherever. The guerilla holdouts who stay will get wiped out by the Kaldorei.

This is the only way to keep them from going evil yet again and committing another genocide and getting into a war with the Alliance.

[VladlTutushkin]

Only if we can erase all NEs from existence for their crimes against Azeroth.

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Faction war should have ended with WC3.

WoW would have been far better off without factions.

You will have to erase blood elves and nightborne first then.

[sighy]

1. The horrible things were done by the horde, not by its leaders. The leaders just ordered them. The whole storyline of BdA was that the horde in general is inherently evil, not only a few of it's leaders.

2. Ofc, yes, they should pay for it, but that is not gonna happen in any form that is relevant to the players. Realistically the horde should have been dismantlet after the events of BfA, but that can not happen because mmo.

Btw sorry again horde players, i know it's not what most of you wanted it what you identify with, but it's what Blizzard wants to go with

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I think you should replay BfA where literally the whole horde is celebrating Teldrassil and the massacres in Ashenvale and Kul Tiras.
Thats the whole problem of BfA, it is very clearly shown that the horde fully supports the war. They are no victims or "had no choice". They simply enjoyed it.

I am not saying i like it, that's just the established lore from bfa.

Problem with that assertion is that, from what i gather Blizzard attempted to establish that the rebels and Aliance were basically at their breaking point. What they brought to Orgrimmar's gates was all they had to work with. Making a mutual agreement to stop fighting the best case scenario for the Aliance, at that point in time. (Irrespective of opinions of some audience members regarding that premise's logical consistency) With a bigger squid to fry on the horison. Overall Horde perspective of the expac was absolute lunacy and should never have made it past storyboard.

Doesn't mean that the question of "Should the Horde pay?" is something that can't have been explored or can't be brooched in the future, but it's a slippery slope if handled poorly.

[callipygoustp]

Yeah, like the horde are the bad guys. WTF ever.

[VladlTutushkin]

Punishment isn't going to help. Every time the Horde has attempted to destroy the Alliance, it was under some shitbag leader who went against the wishes of the majority. The fact that the faction is in tatters and leaderless after every expansion is punishment enough, it punishes itself pretty well.

Frankly I'm just sick of the faction conflict. It has the same vibes as a married couple that has been together for twenty years but won't stop yelling and shouting at each other. At some point it just gets tiring and there's nothing more to say or do with the subject, we were at that point years ago.

And Alliance shouldnt care what excuse horde comes up with each time they attempt a genocide or world conquest. They should other pay in coin, or pay in blood.

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Why would you punish the people for the actions of despot leaders ?

Its wrong in the real world and it would be wrong in a game, the people very rarely have a choice in what their leaders decide to do.

Even worse when its game devs deciding what the faction will be doing in game ...you really think Horde players wanted to do another asinine war with the Alliance ? or kill that many Nelfs ? no It was the game directors and devs that went in that stupid direction.

Idk, but forums looked real funny at the start of BfA. Horde was basically having time of their lives and anybody who spoke against it was branded as “not true horde” and insulted, laughed at and told to reroll Alliance.

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Problem with that assertion is that, from what i gather Blizzard attempted to establish that the rebels and Aliance were basically at their breaking point. What they brought to Orgrimmar's gates was all they had to work with. Making a mutual agreement to stop fighting the best case scenario for the Aliance, at that point in time. (Irrespective of opinions of some audience members regarding that premise's logical consistency) With a bigger squid to fry on the horison. Overall Horde perspective of the expac was absolute lunacy and should never have made it past storyboard.

Doesn't mean that the question of "Should the Horde pay?" is something that can't have been explored or can't be brooched in the future, but it's a slippery slope if handled poorly.

Cost of war dosent matter when dealing with faction as persistently aggressive as Horde. Btw, in our real life history Prussia was literally deleted from existence and disbanded because of their hyper-warlike culture since they were deemed too much of a pain in the ass after world war.

But its not about that. What it is about is that Alliance can either die fighting, or die by a thousand cuts as Horde keeps attacking them and then evading responsibility. Or they can fight and win, nearly dying but removing the persistent threat for good.

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The Horde is a failed state. It has a barbarian/viking culture, is institutionally fascist, and is incredibly unstable. The Horde historically has a violent transition in power every 2 years, with Thrall to Garrosh being the only peaceful transition of power. The Horde has existed for 39 years since Blackhand became the first Warchief. For those 39 years, there has only been FOUR YEARS where the Horde wasn't a fascist, warmongering regime: the three years under Thrall from Vanilla through the end of Wrath, and the one year Vol'jin was warchief. FOUR YEARS out of 39. The Horde managed to be not evil for 10% of its existence. Also, your average Horde citizen still lives in poverty. It's pretty much North Korea, where all of the money and resources are being dedicated towards military assets... that still pale in comparison to assets of the other coalition they are trying to impress/intimidate.

The Horde needs to be dismantled, full stop. Occupy Orgrimmar and give a general order forbidding the mass congregation of Horde races, lest they are deemed as military build up and get wiped out. Institute a de-hordification program to pacify the populace. Begin civic works projects such as irrigation, clean water, houses that aren't mud huts, etc. Get these people to become subsistence farmers and fishermen. Anyone who wants to maintain their viking ways needs to get deported off the planet, probably to Outland or wherever. The guerilla holdouts who stay will get wiped out by the Kaldorei.

This is the only way to keep them from going evil yet again and committing another genocide and getting into a war with the Alliance.

Also horde players always whine how “Why Horde cant win the war and Siege Stormwind or something!”

Because if it Sieges Stormwind it will reduce it to rubble, genocide the population, blight the rubble, summon a Void Lord and then some more.

Horde cant win because their “victory” will mean literal end of WoW. They will wipe out Alliance races and then go after neutral organisations and then turn on themselves until Azeroth is reduced to “second Outland”.

[StationaryHawk]

The faction conflict has been done to death, and will never have any meaningful impact so long as Warcraft's story is told in an MMO format.

1. The horrible things were done by the horde, not by its leaders. The leaders just ordered them. The whole storyline of BdA was that the horde in general is inherently evil, not only a few of it's leaders.

2. Ofc, yes, they should pay for it, but that is not gonna happen in any form that is relevant to the players. Realistically the horde should have been dismantlet after the events of BfA, but that can not happen because mmo.

Btw sorry again horde players, i know it's not what most of you wanted it what you identify with, but it's what Blizzard wants to go with

If Blizzard had half your confidence in what direction the Horde is taking, we wouldn't have received a second MoP.

[Addiena]

1. The horrible things were done by the horde, not by its leaders. The leaders just ordered them. The whole storyline of BdA was that the horde in general is inherently evil, not only a few of it's leaders.

2. Ofc, yes, they should pay for it, but that is not gonna happen in any form that is relevant to the players. Realistically the horde should have been dismantlet after the events of BfA, but that can not happen because mmo.

Btw sorry again horde players, i know it's not what most of you wanted it what you identify with, but it's what Blizzard wants to go with

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I think you should replay BfA where literally the whole horde is celebrating Teldrassil and the massacres in Ashenvale and Kul Tiras.
Thats the whole problem of BfA, it is very clearly shown that the horde fully supports the war. They are no victims or "had no choice". They simply enjoyed it.

I am not saying i like it, that's just the established lore from bfa.

I think you mean the in game NPCs support it, not like they have a choice now do they.

The actual players ..I think you'll find that to be a very different set of results. (And yes you'll get the horde die hard idiots who think the Horde is evil, but they are hardly the majority here)

[Feanoro]

Punishment isn't going to help. Every time the Horde has attempted to destroy the Alliance, it was under some shitbag leader who went against the wishes of the majority.

Bullshit.

Canonically, both Garrosh and Sylvie had the support of the majority of the Horde until late in their reigns. Even if that wasn't the case, those two did not act alone, they commanded Horde armies who cheered as they committed atrocities, then backpedaled with "Me follow orders, me not responsible".

Don't worry though, Hordies, the Horde will NEVER face any kind of realistic consequences. We'll just keep repeating the "Alliance is the beaten wife, Horde gets off scot free" formula as long as people pay subs.

As to losing characters, talk to the Horde fans that keep demanding dUh WeR iN WeRcrEfT!!1!1

Horde loses characters? You don't say?

Horde fans: We want to crush the Alliance for existing! DA WER IN WERCREFT!
Blizz writers, well known for being hippies: War is bad, maaaaaaaaaan.
Horde fans: BLOOD! THUNDER! CHICKEN TENDIES!
Blizz writers: Your endgame is everyone NotHorde dead. Alliance endgame is you stop murdering them for a while. Your endgame can't happen.
Horde fans: We lust for mountains of skulls and rivers of blood! Also, don't you dare blame the war on our aggression.
Blizz writers: OK, Alliance wins because we're not flushing our business model. Everything is blamed on $hordecharacter so the Horde itself is blameless.
Horde fans: *surprised Pikachu face*

[VladlTutushkin]

Bullshit.

Canonically, both Garrosh and Sylvie had the support of the majority of the Horde until late in their reigns. Even if that wasn't the case, those two did not act alone, they commanded Horde armies who cheered as they committed atrocities, then backpedaled with "Me follow orders, me not responsible".

Don't worry though, Hordies, the Horde will NEVER face any kind of realistic consequences. We'll just keep repeating the "Alliance is the beaten wife, Horde gets off scot free" formula as long as people pay subs.

As to losing characters, talk to the Horde fans that keep demanding dUh WeR iN WeRcrEfT!!1!1

Also take a look at the specimen above that blames Alliance for that.

[Piamonte]

Uh, yes it is? When you yourself willingly participate in nasty deeds of your leaders, like at Teldrassil? "Just following orders" doesn't work even (or especially) IRL.

Teldrasil is not real, is a virtual place in a videogame.

[Feanoro]

Teldrasil is not real, is a virtual place in a videogame.

And no one capable of writing posts here is a member of the Horde, a virtual organization in a story. The Horde being punished has nothing to do with real people.

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Also take a look at the specimen above that blames Alliance for that.

I wonder if it's the "Arthas was Alliance" type? Or just the more common "A few shopkeepers is a genocide, but burning 90% of a race to death isn't" type?

[VladlTutushkin]

And no one capable of writing posts here is a member of the Horde, a virtual organization in a story. The Horde being punished has nothing to do with real people.

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I wonder if it's the "Arthas was Alliance" type? Or just the more common "A few shopkeepers is a genocide, but burning 90% of a race to death isn't" type?

Oh no, its the " Alliance is so boring and drags the plot down by being the good bois" type.

P.S.

Also classic "Teldrassil wasnt real! Touch the grass! Go take a walk nerd!" but then "PUNISHING HORDE NPCs IS LITERALLY LIKE SIZZLING MY BALLS OVER FIRE! IT INSULTS ME PERSONALLY AND ATTACKS THE REAL PLAYERS!"

[Hyeonh]

The current writers should pay for the crime of desecrating the lore that was set up by the old team.

[deenman]

Yeah, like the horde are the bad guys. WTF ever.

not just bad guys,but genosidal maniacs,its actualy amazing how blizzard wrote a playable faction that is more evil than the sith faction in star wars mmo LOL

[InflaterMouse]

Simply put, much of the problems in the WoW lore can be directly attributed to horde leaders who have done horrible things. Should the horde be made to pay for those crimes in some way?

Also, would you support a fifth Alliance / horde war (in game or in books) where the Alliance actually wins ground and has objective victories for once?

Neither horde nor the alliance get to pick their leaders. It isn't a democracy, and there are tons of members of each side that are either directly a part of each faction or live under their rule, being associated with the faction directly, that had nothing to do with the atrocities of either faction. You don't make a populace suffer for their leaders unless they had direction action in the crimes. Simply put, no.