I feel optimistic about WoW

[glowpipe]

We can only hope. Ill believe it when i see it, but not before

I do however feel a bit better about the games future now after all the recent changes. 9.1.5 they gave us a metric shitton of shit we have been asking for. So maybe this is the beginning of something good. Change has to start somewhere

[Osmeric]

Blizzard is, and for once I'm going to use this term properly, literally doing exactly as people have asked. 4

Blizzard needs to do what people will want, not what people explicitly ask for. THEY are the game designers, they are being paid to figure out what will make players happy. Your take seems to be that if we the players don't do their job for them then we can't complain.

If they are emotionally incompetent at understanding other people then I guess they can fall back on trying to do exactly what players ask them for, but that's not being a good game designer.

[Captain Proton]

Blizzard is, and for once I'm going to use this term properly, literally doing exactly as people have asked. And yet still, despite that, this forum is still filled with people hating on Blizzard because... now they're doing exactly what was asked of them? When you're being critical of a company, and asking for changes, the end result of that is to get the changes you want (assuming they're not unreasonable), and that is EXACTLY what is going on right now. People that were actually serious about wanting to see what they percieved as problems get addressed and fixed, are very likely happy, and are no doubt back to playing the game (Or will be, once 9.1.5 goes live).

I mean, there was a lot of feedback in alpha and beta, and they are now making those changes, what 9 months later? So awesome, I love that the changes are coming but to me it was also about their arrogant response of "It was the right decision at the time but it no longer makes sense". Why does it no longer make sense? Their reason of making choices matter is still there, so that doesn't fly. Is it because they are hemorraging players? Likely.

[Kalocy Jim]

Blizzard needs to do what people will want, not what people explicitly ask for. THEY are the game designers, they are being paid to figure out what will make players happy. Your take seems to be that if we the players don't do their job for them then we can't complain.

If they are emotionally incompetent at understanding other people then I guess they can fall back on trying to do exactly what players ask them for, but that's not being a good game designer.

Good game design doesn't hinge on pleasing every demographic of the end user. There has to be limits and a clear design goal. First and foremost, they need to design a game that they want to play. Thats how Blizzard for the most part designed their games. Design a game they want to play and let the masses play it too, and for the most part they got it right all the time when development was like that.

Not everyone is going to be happy with every aspect of any game. Its just impossible to please EVERYONE when 10 million people have varying degrees of wants and thoughts on how the game should play.

I think its a good thing that Blizzard tries out expansion specific game systems, because if they did the standard MMO formula every expansion:

-New quests and 10 new levels
-New dungeons
-New raids
-New zones
-New class / races (maybe)

Then the game would become stale pretty fast. Sure new content is always great, but its the whole treadmill thing. People get tired of running on the treadmill all the time, they like to switch it up with some stair climbing, burpees, dumbells, deadlifts etc. Doing the same thing over and over can become boring.

[Lynkeus]

There is nothing optimistic about the things they are bringing. I am done with WoW until next expansion, and that is if they listen community this time.

[Echo of Soul]

someone who know about warcraft story? or someone who are actually competent? i don't know why it has to be someone worse, if that is possible

Maybe a game designer? Staffing up with only systems designers and content designers is never a good idea

[Osmeric]

Good game design doesn't hinge on pleasing every demographic of the end user.

Nice absolutist strawman. It does hinge on pleasing more rather than few players. It does mean placing the players ahead of the game designers' egos and personal desires.

First and foremost, they need to design a game that they want to play.

Nope. Whether the devs would like to play it is irrelevant. They are not designing the game for themselves, they are designing the game to make money for their employer by pleasing and retaining customers. If their desires do not align with their customers, they should either deal with it, or be replaced with designers who can do better.

[Echo of Soul]

So its totally ok for you to be blindly optimistic, but not ok for others to join the "blind hate train". This is what extreme bias looks like. Again, why ask a question you dont want to hear the answer to? If you are excited and happy, good for you! thats great! but not everyone is.

It's pretty clear that OP was optimistic during every single content patch he has played and want people to come back now that the game is fixed and Blizzard have definitely changed /s

[MoanaLisa]

someone who know about warcraft story? or someone who are actually competent? i don't know why it has to be someone worse, if that is possible

My point was that if everyone is so smart about who should be fired they should also be smart enough to say who should replace them.

[Kalocy Jim]

Nice absolutist strawman. It does hinge on pleasing more rather than few players. It does mean placing the players ahead of the game designers' egos and personal desires.



Nope. Whether the devs would like to play it is irrelevant. They are not designing the game for themselves, they are designing the game to make money for their employer by pleasing and retaining customers. If their desires do not align with their customers, they should either deal with it, or be replaced with designers who can do better.

I adamantly disagree with you.

Perfect example, the PoE developers decided to make the game much harder because it fits the vision they have for the game, and they literally said they don't care whether or not players like it. They even said "deal with it."

Its the type of game THEY want to play. Blizzard used to develop like this, and when they developed with passion like they did, the game always was universally praised by the players. There's a reason WoW's popularity sling shotted to 4.7 million by the end of vanilla, 9.2 million by the end of TBC, 11 million by the end of WOTLK, and 12 million by the end of Cataclysm. They used to develop the game that THEY wanted to play. They shifted to focus more on user metrics, which has hit the quality of the game somewhat.

It's not your place to dictate to the developers what kind of game they should design. Its your place to play what they design for you, and if you don't like the type of game they ended up making, you are free to play something else. Its that simple.

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My point was that if everyone is so smart about who should be fired they should also be smart enough to say who should replace them.

This 100%. Exactly this.

[arkanon]

I feel there's a very significant difference in what you're suggesting is happening, and what is ACTUALLY happening.

The irony of this comment is not lost on me, and hopefuly not you either. You say they are listening, and have "fixed all the issues" but then only talk about issues TOTALLY unrelated to the actual GAME, and instead talk about issues involving the legal battle - these are two entirely seperate issues. The harrassment suite has NOTHING to do with the direction the game has taken over the last few years, and NOTHING to do with the core gameplay of world of warcraft - much of it doesnt even relate to wow at all in any way.

[MoanaLisa]

Just because a vocal minority screamed something in the beta doesn't make them right and the devs wrong. This idea needs to stop.

Beta has always been, is now and will be in the future for fixing bugs. It will never be for ripping out entire systems that the expansion is designed around. That cake is more or less baked.

[Osmeric]

I adamantly disagree with you.

Perfect example, the PoE developers decided to make the game much harder because it fits the vision they have for the game, and they literally said they don't care whether or not players like it. They even said "deal with it."

And it was a game enough players wanted also. That the devs wanted it is entirely beside the point.

We can also point to games where the devs' vision was at odds with what players wanted. Those games are called "failures".

If the devs insist on gratifying their own desires, then unless those align with what the players want, the devs should be replaced. There is no virtue in gratifying their egos.

[arkanon]

My point was that if everyone is so smart about who should be fired they should also be smart enough to say who should replace them.

What an absolutely rediculous thing to say - seriously, no person can genuinely think that is how ANY of this works. So by your logic, if a boss is seen physically assaulting a staff member, no one can demand they be removed from the company without first identifying a replacement? Holy shit.......it blows my mind that anyone would think this is a logical thought process.

I do think that its actually WORSE for a gamer to claim they have the solutions to problems in game, rather than just explaining what they dont like and why. We are not game devs, they are. This is obviously not helped by terrible feedback: "game bad, make good!" but it is helped greatly by good feedback like "I dont enjoy these new talents because they speed the class up way too much and it was traditionally a slower spec".

Its the same with staff - i dont really think its anyones place to say who should go from a game design perspective, but there are plenty of OTHER reasons for a staff member to be removed, and for the paying customers to request that person be removed from their position - and the "recent" events at Blizzard are a prime example of this.

[Kalocy Jim]

So its totally ok for you to be blindly optimistic, but not ok for others to join the "blind hate train". This is what extreme bias looks like. Again, why ask a question you dont want to hear the answer to? If you are excited and happy, good for you! thats great! but not everyone is.

I'm not blindly optimistic. I've even said in this very thread there are things that I haven't liked over the years in the game, but generally the game is still good and worth the $15 a month subscription fee.

I do want to hear the answer to the question. What I don't like is you and others attacking me for being optimistic and calling me a "shill" "white knight" or other derogatory terms because you don't think people should feel the way I do. You may have not said those exact terms, but you insinuate it with your posts.

Its okay if you are pessimistic. I think its interesting to hear why people are. But I think its also equally good to hear why people are optimistic, and what makes them excited to play the game. I feel that optimism is always better than pessimism in all situations in life. Its a sad sad life when one is lived pessimistically.

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And it was a game enough players wanted also. That the devs wanted it is entirely beside the point.

We can also point to games where the devs' vision was at odds with what players wanted. Those games are called "failures".

If the devs insist on gratifying their own desires, then unless those align with what the players want, the devs should be replaced. There is no virtue in gratifying their egos.

You should watch this day 9 video on player feedback. I think its relevant to the discussion. But I still disagree with you. Agree to disagree i guess. Cheers!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_pyZWPxiVg

[arkanon]

I do want to hear the answer to the question. What I don't like is you and others attacking me for being optimistic and calling me a "shill" "white knight" or other derogatory terms because you don't think people should feel the way I do. You may have not said those exact terms, but you insinuate it with your posts.

Quote where i used any of those terms, or "insinuated" those terms, otherwise you are just proving my point. You created a thread ASKING for opinions, and have gone on the offensive with anyone who says anything that goes against your narrative, and yet immedaitely "100% agree" with anything anyone says that you think fits your narrative.

[Kalocy Jim]

Beta has always been, is now and will be in the future for fixing bugs. It will never be for ripping out entire systems that the expansion is designed around. That cake is more or less baked.

Many people don't seem to understand this at all.

They cant just say "hey, i guess we will get rid of covenants because the players don't want them!.. but oh wait, covenants are a core primary feature of this new expansion... I guess we have to go back to the drawing board and not release an expansion for another 2 years.."

Yeah, that's not happening.

[ohwell]

Beta has always been, is now and will be in the future for fixing bugs. It will never be for ripping out entire systems that the expansion is designed around. That cake is more or less baked.

Defintely. As are the PTR for the most part. I mean yes there are cases where things were massively overhauled in Beta or PTR, but the times they haven't far outweigh those that did.

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Many people don't seem to understand this at all.

They cant just say "hey, i guess we will get rid of covenants because the players don't want them!.. but oh wait, covenants are a core primary feature of this new expansion... I guess we have to go back to the drawing board and not release an expansion for another 2 years.."

Yeah, that's not happening.

The closest to something of that magnitude was Path of the Titans which was in Alpha nearly Beta iirc.

[arkanon]

Just because a vocal minority screamed something in the beta doesn't make them right and the devs wrong. This idea needs to stop.

And just because a group is vocal does not make them a minority.

[Kalocy Jim]

And just because a group is vocal does not make them a minority.

How do you know?