I feel optimistic about WoW

[arkanon]

How do you know?

Oh dear......I see you ignored my request for quotes after you accused me of various insults, and instead decided to attack this without thinking at all. Read what you quoted again, honestly, just read it and think it through - i made literally NO claim either way, which is EXACTLY my point. How could you possibly miss that?

[bledgor]

And just because a group is vocal does not make them a minority.

Even if they weren't a minority (and they 100% were, the forums here HARDLY make up any population and anyone that watches the big content creators like azmongold or preach should never be listened to for anything ever in life) being the vocal majority doesn't make something right mate.

You can think one thing and I can think something completely different, both of us could be right, wrong or anywhere in between.

[Kalocy Jim]

Oh dear......I see you ignored my request for quotes after you accused me of various insults, and instead decided to attack this without thinking at all. Read what you quoted again, honestly, just read it and think it through - i made literally NO claim either way, which is EXACTLY my point. How could you possibly miss that?

Nope. I'm not going to go through your posts in this thread picking out your comments. Its your general tone. Now that thats out of the way:

Attack? Are you okay?

How do you possibly get I attacked you, from me asking "how do you know?" Also my question still stands.

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Even if they weren't a minority (and they 100% were, the forums here HARDLY make up any population and anyone that watches the big content creators like azmongold or preach should never be listened for anything ever in life) being the vocal majority doesn't make something right mate. You can think one thing and I can think something completely different, both of us could be right, wrong or anywhere in between.

Also 100% this.

[M1r4g3]

Optimistic about what? Them doing the same shit for 3 xpacks now? Making systems no one wants with limitations that no one wants and then unlocking them in x.3 patches after players had enough of the bullshit and start leaving(sl one came early, i wonder why...)?

[arkanon]

Even if they weren't a minority (and they 100% were, the forums here HARDLY make up any population and anyone that watches the big content creators like azmongold or preach should never be listened to for anything ever in life) being the vocal majority doesn't make something right mate.

You seem really confused about this - you say they are a minority because they are only a small percentage of the playerbase, but then go on to say they COULD be the majoirty? But the total users you are referring to hasnt changed, so they cant be a majority, surely?

And this is a textbook strawman - I NEVER said being the majority makes them right, so take a step back and look at what I actually posted. All i said is that this idea that you can instantly label anything you dont agree with as a "vocal minority" without anything to back that up is what i take exception to.

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Optimistic about what? Them doing the same shit for 3 xpacks now? Making systems no one wants with limitations that no one wants and then unlocking them in x.3 patches after players had enough of the bullshit and start leaving(sl one came early, i wonder why...)?

What concerns me is much of the "optimism" is based on staff changes that were made for entirely different reasons than performance, or the performance of the game - they were directly linked to the entirely unrelated court proceedings and accusations. Some people are excited for a handful of new cosmetics, which im totally ok with - at least that is SOMETHING, but when i see people stating they are really excited for the future of wow because some guy was fired for having wandering hands, i just scratch me head.

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Nope. I'm not going to go through your posts in this thread picking out your comments. Its your general tone. Now that thats out of the way:

Attack? Are you okay?

How do you possibly get I attacked you, from me asking "how do you know?" Also my question still stands.
.

What question? What on earth are you talking about? You asked "how do you know?" how do i know WHAT? I made NO claim in the post you quoted, and that was EXACTLY the issue I had with the poster i replied to.

[hulkgor]

If you got rid of the idiots in charge of the last 3 expansions then I would start to feel more optimistic.

Considering the past 3 expansions have been great, gameplay wise, i'd take another 3 just like those in a heart beat, than risk getting another WoD.

[bledgor]

You seem really confused about this - you say they are a minority because they are only a small percentage of the playerbase, but then go on to say they COULD be the majoirty? But the total users you are referring to hasnt changed, so they cant be a majority, surely?

I know reading is hard for you wow haters when it doesn't contain the words blizzard bad, but if you read what I said, I said quote "Even IF they weren't a minority...." as in a hypothetical, as in even if I buy into your complete bullshit it STILL wouldn't necessarily make you right.

And this is a textbook strawman - I NEVER said being the majority makes them right, so take a step back and look at what I actually posted. All i said is that this idea that you can instantly label anything you dont agree with as a "vocal minority" without anything to back that up is what i take exception to.

It is implied in your post, and you can lie and say it isn't or being massively naive, but you did.

The reason we CAN say they are vocal minority is because even if you took every single person that posts on mmo, wow reddit, the wow forums, and posts about it on twitter it would be a minority, unless you believe wow is below 1 mill subs global (rofl if you do).

You want to be a constant negative Nancy, have at it, but some of us in life don't like to be overly pessimistic as it is a pretty shitty way to live. Not to mention again we might not agree with you, which is something you completely left out of my post when you quoted, instead you cherry picked a piece you could dissect to be angry about.

[Exkrementor]

Do you feel optimistic about WoW and where its headed?

Nope, not at all. Played this shit for 16 years and seen it going downhill for a long time because developers who hate their playerbase make arbitrary decisions to increase engagement metrics instead of making the game better. Retail is dead and classic will be after wrath.

[Thes]

Well they're addressing issues and gripes I and probably hundreds if not thousands others pointed out to them. Now it's really up to them to keep it that way and not screw it up again when 10.0 hits.

[Kalocy Jim]

You seem really confused about this - you say they are a minority because they are only a small percentage of the playerbase, but then go on to say they COULD be the majoirty? But the total users you are referring to hasnt changed, so they cant be a majority, surely?

And this is a textbook strawman - I NEVER said being the majority makes them right, so take a step back and look at what I actually posted. All i said is that this idea that you can instantly label anything you dont agree with as a "vocal minority" without anything to back that up is what i take exception to.

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What concerns me is much of the "optimism" is based on staff changes that were made for entirely different reasons than performance, or the performance of the game - they were directly linked to the entirely unrelated court proceedings and accusations. Some people are excited for a handful of new cosmetics, which im totally ok with - at least that is SOMETHING, but when i see people stating they are really excited for the future of wow because some guy was fired for having wandering hands, i just scratch me head.

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What question? What on earth are you talking about? You asked "how do you know?" how do i know WHAT? I made NO claim in the post you quoted, and that was EXACTLY the issue I had with the poster i replied to.

Ok im done going back and forth with you, entertaining your attempt to derail the thread. If you don't understand the question I said earlier, then you aren't going to get it now. Lets just agree to disagree bud.

On the topic of optimism, regardless of intent, the changes to the game in 9.1.5 are good changes (for the most part). Im excited to know when the patch is going to drop.

I have my bet on Oct 5th!

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Nope, not at all. Played this shit for 16 years and seen it going downhill for a long time because developers who hate their playerbase make arbitrary decisions to increase engagement metrics instead of making the game better. Retail is dead and classic will be after wrath.

What do you enjoy about the current game? Do you like raiding, dungeons? What would be something you would like to engage in, in the game?

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Well they're addressing issues and gripes I and probably hundreds if not thousands others pointed out to them. Now it's really up to them to keep it that way and not screw it up again when 10.0 hits.

Fair points.

I don't agree that they "screwed [things] up", they just didn't agree with the vocal minority yelling on the forums and in youtube videos. After experience with the game and how things turned out, they realize the misjudgment in design and are now making changes for the better.

People like Bellular just serve to stoak negative flames that seem to pervade all aspects of the community, which is 100% toxic. When you give anyone with the ability to breathe an outlet to fan those flames, you get faux outrage that we have seen recently. We could definitely do without the Bellulars of the world in the WoW community.. thats for sure.

[Draco-Onis]

Fair points.

I don't agree that they "screwed [things] up", they just didn't agree with the vocal minority yelling on the forums and in youtube videos. After experience with the game and how things turned out, they realize the misjudgment in design and are now making changes for the better.

But you don't know that, you are assuming. The reason for a lot of the anger is the lack of communication of their vision and plans. There has been no acknowledgement of misjudgements on the contrary they defended them.

Let's also be clear shadowlands didn't just come out. These issues have been known for months.

[Echo of Soul]

What an absolutely rediculous thing to say - seriously, no person can genuinely think that is how ANY of this works. So by your logic, if a boss is seen physically assaulting a staff member, no one can demand they be removed from the company without first identifying a replacement? Holy shit.......it blows my mind that anyone would think this is a logical thought process.

I do think that its actually WORSE for a gamer to claim they have the solutions to problems in game, rather than just explaining what they dont like and why. We are not game devs, they are. This is obviously not helped by terrible feedback: "game bad, make good!" but it is helped greatly by good feedback like "I dont enjoy these new talents because they speed the class up way too much and it was traditionally a slower spec".

Its the same with staff - i dont really think its anyones place to say who should go from a game design perspective, but there are plenty of OTHER reasons for a staff member to be removed, and for the paying customers to request that person be removed from their position - and the "recent" events at Blizzard are a prime example of this.

Absolutely. Any decent game designer would tell you the same. I believe there's even a semi famous quote that goes something like "players are good at finding problems, not solutions".

A good game designer should be able to analyze the feedback and give players what they need, not necessarily what they want.
For example if players want solo queue, the correct action may not be to give them solo queue but to fix the issue that is causing them to want solo queue. Now I'm not a PvP:er so I have no idea why players want solo queue, I just used it as an example.

[Kalocy Jim]

But you don't know that, you are assuming. The reason for a lot of the anger is the lack of communication of their vision and plans. There has been no acknowledgement of misjudgements on the contrary they defended them.

Let's also be clear shadowlands didn't just come out. These issues have been known for months.

What you call "issues" the developers don't agree except for the conduit energy being removed. They clearly stated in their post that the "ripcord" being pulled wasn't because of the community, it was because it made sense to do so in the context of the story and where we are at in the expansion life cycle.

Does nobody read the official statements Blizzard makes? Do you guys just fill their intents with your own presumptions?

[arkanon]

Absolutely. Any decent game designer would tell you the same. I believe there's even a semi famous quote that goes something like "players are good at finding problems, not solutions".

A good game designer should be able to analyze the feedback and give players what they need, not necessarily what they want.
For example if players want solo queue, the correct action may not be to give them solo queue but to fix the issue that is causing them to want solo queue. Now I'm not a PvP:er so I have no idea why players want solo queue, I just used it as an example.

EXACTLY. And using your example, the best solution might not be to add solo queue rated content, but rather to ask "why are these people not feel satisfied with the solo queue content / rewards, and how can we make that content more engaging for them". The solution might not be what the players are expecting, but so long as it fixes the "problem" they have, then its a win/win.

[MoanaLisa]

What an absolutely rediculous thing to say - seriously, no person can genuinely think that is how ANY of this works. So by your logic, if a boss is seen physically assaulting a staff member, no one can demand they be removed from the company without first identifying a replacement? Holy shit.......it blows my mind that anyone would think this is a logical thought process.

I do think that its actually WORSE for a gamer to claim they have the solutions to problems in game, rather than just explaining what they dont like and why. We are not game devs, they are. This is obviously not helped by terrible feedback: "game bad, make good!" but it is helped greatly by good feedback like "I dont enjoy these new talents because they speed the class up way too much and it was traditionally a slower spec".

Its the same with staff - i dont really think its anyones place to say who should go from a game design perspective, but there are plenty of OTHER reasons for a staff member to be removed, and for the paying customers to request that person be removed from their position - and the "recent" events at Blizzard are a prime example of this.

I'm going to quote all of this since you missed the point by as far as it's possible to miss it. This is about people on forums who are constantly calling for the heads of developers. I have no idea what you're on about here. This is purely about every smart person here or on any other forum who thinks the answer to getting the game they personally like is firing someone they don't know with no idea of what they actually do day-to-day or what the impact of said firing would be.

[arkanon]

Ok im done going back and forth with you, entertaining your attempt to derail the thread. If you don't understand the question I said earlier, then you aren't going to get it now. Lets just agree to disagree bud.

On the topic of optimism, regardless of intent, the changes to the game in 9.1.5 are good changes (for the most part). Im excited to know when the patch is going to drop.

I have my bet on Oct 5th!

Derail the thread? What are you talking about? You asked if people are optimistic or not, and some people are not. They are even going so far as to explain WHY they are not optimistic, and you are automatically saying that is pessimistic, which is disingenuous at best.

Many have mentioned it; you are extremely defensive and aggressive towards people not supporting your narrative, and throw around insults and accusations left right and centre – its clear you didn’t want an open discussion, but rather validation of your opinion – many users have said the same thing. If anything, you are derailing your own thread with your aggressive tone and responses to people who don’t agree with you.

[Draco-Onis]

What you call "issues" the developers don't agree except for the conduit energy being removed. They clearly stated in their post that the "ripcord" being pulled wasn't because of the community, it was because it made sense to do so in the context of the story and where we are at in the expansion life cycle.

Does nobody read the official statements Blizzard makes? Do you guys just fill their intents with your own presumptions?

Have you because you are now contradicting your narrative about misjudgements? You just agreed with me.

[Echo of Soul]

I'm going to quote all of this since you missed the point by as far as it's possible to miss it. This is about people on forums who are constantly calling for the heads of developers. I have no idea what you're on about here. This is purely about every smart person here or on any other forum who thinks the answer to getting the game they personally like is firing someone they don't know with no idea of what they actually do day-to-day or what the impact of said firing would be.

Sadly at some point it's the only thing you can do. If the product you're using (and for some people even being dependant on to be honest) is steadily getting worse and worse, the company repeats the same mistakes over and over again and years of feedback from yourself and other customers seem to fall on deaf ears you either abandon the product or ask for the man in charge to be replaced with someone better suited for the job.
At the moment it seems that the WoW playerbase is doing both of these things. When your customers stop asking for improvements and start moving over to your competitors you've already gone past the point where it's time to start worrying. The snowball is no longer rolling and gaining momentum, it has gone off a cliff and is in free fall.

[Kalocy Jim]

Derail the thread? What are you talking about? You asked if people are optimistic or not, and some people are not. They are even going so far as to explain WHY they are not optimistic, and you are automatically saying that is pessimistic, which is disingenuous at best.

Many have mentioned it; you are extremely defensive and aggressive towards people not supporting your narrative, and throw around insults and accusations left right and centre – its clear you didn’t want an open discussion, but rather validation of your opinion – many users have said the same thing. If anything, you are derailing your own thread with your aggressive tone and responses to people who don’t agree with you.

No problem bud! Its okay to feel the way you do, but its also alright that I feel the way I do. I appreciate your input on the matter. I really don't have any narrative other than to be optimistic about the future of the game.

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I'm going to quote all of this since you missed the point by as far as it's possible to miss it. This is about people on forums who are constantly calling for the heads of developers. I have no idea what you're on about here. This is purely about every smart person here or on any other forum who thinks the answer to getting the game they personally like is firing someone they don't know with no idea of what they actually do day-to-day or what the impact of said firing would be.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

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Have you because you are now contradicting your narrative about misjudgements? You just agreed with me.

Yeah absolutely, we can agree on some things, and disagree on others bud!

[arkanon]

I'm going to quote all of this since you missed the point by as far as it's possible to miss it. This is about people on forums who are constantly calling for the heads of developers. I have no idea what you're on about here. This is purely about every smart person here or on any other forum who thinks the answer to getting the game they personally like is firing someone they don't know with no idea of what they actually do day-to-day or what the impact of said firing would be.

If a sports team is constantly failing, its typical to say the head coach needs to go - and it regularly happens. What you are saying is the fans have no right to ask for the head coach to be removed unless they know who should replace them. Unless your comment was very specific about this exact issue, this exact scenario, and these exact individuals, then i totally disagree with you. And to be fair, even if it was about one specific comment about one specific dev needing to go, i STILL dont agree with the idea that you need to name their replacement.

I have also said more than once in this thread alone that i do NOT think blaming a dev is productive or useful to anyone (you must have missed that) - but to suggest that you cannot ask for someone to be removed from a position without first saying who should replace them makes no sense at all, and is not grounded in reality.

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No problem bud! Its okay to feel the way you do, but its also alright that I feel the way I do. I appreciate your input on the matter. I really don't have any narrative other than to be optimistic about the future of the game.

Tell me - how do I feel?

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What you call "issues" the developers don't agree except for the conduit energy being removed. They clearly stated in their post that the "ripcord" being pulled wasn't because of the community, it was because it made sense to do so in the context of the story and where we are at in the expansion life cycle.

Does nobody read the official statements Blizzard makes? Do you guys just fill their intents with your own presumptions?

Doesnt this contradict the idea that the devs are listening and making positive changes? If they didn’t make the change because of feedback, then they are still not listening….