Do you think the night elves were justified in their spying on the blood elves?

[Vaedan]

if I remember correctly in rise of the horde we know that the blood elves were already part of the horde before the draenei arrived in azeroth

Not sure, but that doesn't make sense, because at the time Blood elves joined the Horde, Blood Knight order was already established, which means Mu'ru was captured from Tempest Keep, being drained by magisters and it's power used by Blood Knights. That process also probably took some time and blood knights were not trained overnight. The arrival of Draenei however happened shortly after Kael invaded Tempest Keep.

It wouldn't be only inconsistency in Blizzard writing, but it's true that the exact timeline has not been released officialy afaik.

[Rhlor]

Not sure, but that doesn't make sense, because at the time Blood elves joined the Horde, Blood Knight order was already established, which means Mu'ru was captured from Tempest Keep, being drained by magisters and it's power used by Blood Knights. That process also probably took some time and blood knights were not trained overnight. The arrival of Draenei however happened shortly after Kael invaded Tempest Keep.

It wouldn't be only inconsistency in Blizzard writing, but it's true that the exact timeline has not been released officialy afaik.

It wouldn't be the first time that golden how to make a mistake like Genn's tail. but in rise of the horde thrall tells us that for some time the blood elves have been part of the horde when the draenei arrived.
someone should ask her about it.

[Vaedan]

It wouldn't be the first time that golden how to make a mistake like Genn's tail. but in rise of the horde thrall tells us that for some time the blood elves have been part of the horde when the draenei arrived.
someone should ask her about it.

Yes, I guess there are more similar cases, even writers can make mistakes... but if we follow content from the game itself, it sets the timeline in a way I wrote above. I also think devs said that game content > books when it comes to relevancy, but I'm not sure.

[defibrillator]

One name: Kael'thas
Nuff said.

[Rhlor]

Yes, I guess there are more similar cases, even writers can make mistakes... but if we follow content from the game itself, it sets the timeline in a way I wrote above. I also think devs said that game content > books when it comes to relevancy, but I'm not sure.

For now I think that until we have a devs confirmation we should not take that point into account, let's leave the arrival of the draenei out of this

[Aresk]

Not sure, but that doesn't make sense, because at the time Blood elves joined the Horde, Blood Knight order was already established, which means Mu'ru was captured from Tempest Keep, being drained by magisters and it's power used by Blood Knights. That process also probably took some time and blood knights were not trained overnight. The arrival of Draenei however happened shortly after Kael invaded Tempest Keep.

It wouldn't be only inconsistency in Blizzard writing, but it's true that the exact timeline has not been released officialy afaik.

The Exodar traveled through space while the blood elves traveled through portals. Is it feasible that events would've led to Kael's attack on Tempest Keep->Exodar leaves Outland->Mu'ru is transferred to Silvermoon->Blood Elves join Horde->Exodar crashes to Azeroth?

[Vaedan]

For now I think that until we have a devs confirmation we should not take that point into account, let's leave the arrival of the draenei out of this

This chapter will probably be never addressed anymore. We have to look up from the sources we have, like:

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Blood_Knights

there you have a line:
Although Warchief Thrall and High Chieftain Cairne Bloodhoof openly opposed the blood elves' methods, they recognized the Blood Knights' strategic value. Indeed, it is likely that the group figured heavily in the Horde's ultimate decision to offer membership to the blood elves.

This alone points out to the fact that Blood Knights were already established group and were one of the main reasons for Thrall to consider inviting blood elves to the Horde. That leads to the fact that draenei were already on Azeroth. When Kael attacked Tempest Keep and captured M'uru, draenei fled with Exodar and arrived to Azeroth. If blood elves would be part of the Horde prior to the draenei arrival, that means they would not have M'uru in their captivity, and thus no blood knights, which is direct contradiction with both quote from official source and in game content.

The Exodar traveled through space while the blood elves traveled through portals. Is it feasible that events would've led to Kael's attack on Tempest Keep->Exodar leaves Outland->Mu'ru is transferred to Silvermoon->Blood Elves join Horde->Exodar crashes to Azeroth?

Exodar is dimensional ship, which can travel trough space and time.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Dimensional_ship

Dimensional ships (or trans-dimensional ships) are vessels created and operated by the naaru that can travel between worlds and dimensions, traversing the Twisting Nether just as normal ships traverse the air and sea, and warp time itself.

Sure, it probably took some time for draenei to reach Azeroth, but probably not really long, because blood elves infiltrated the ship and sabotaged, so it crashed. Also, we've seen other ship, Vindicaar, even before its empowerment, being able to reach Argus in a matter moments. In fact, when you do quests in Azuremyst, it is not stated how long it is after Tempest Keep is lost, but most of the draenei are still shaken by that and by the crash, of course.

Also, founding of blood knight order probably took some time, as well as their training and growing in prominence. As I pointed out above, blood knights were important factor for inviting blood elves to the Horde.

[Rhlor]

This chapter will probably be never addressed anymore. We have to look up from the sources we have, like:

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Blood_Knights

there you have a line:
Although Warchief Thrall and High Chieftain Cairne Bloodhoof openly opposed the blood elves' methods, they recognized the Blood Knights' strategic value. Indeed, it is likely that the group figured heavily in the Horde's ultimate decision to offer membership to the blood elves.

This alone points out to the fact that Blood Knights were already established group and were one of the main reasons for Thrall to consider inviting blood elves to the Horde. That leads to the fact that draenei were already on Azeroth. When Kael attacked Tempest Keep and captured M'uru, draenei fled with Exodar and arrived to Azeroth. If blood elves would be part of the Horde prior to the draenei arrival, that means they would not have M'uru in their captivity, and thus no blood knights, which is direct contradiction with both quote from official source and in game content.



Exodar is dimensional ship, which can travel trough space and time.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Dimensional_ship

Dimensional ships (or trans-dimensional ships) are vessels created and operated by the naaru that can travel between worlds and dimensions, traversing the Twisting Nether just as normal ships traverse the air and sea, and warp time itself.

Sure, it probably took some time for draenei to reach Azeroth, but probably not really long, because blood elves infiltrated the ship and sabotaged, so it crashed. Also, we've seen other ship, Vindicaar, even before its empowerment, being able to reach Argus in a matter moments. In fact, when you do quests in Azuremyst, it is not stated how long it is after Tempest Keep is lost, but most of the draenei are still shaken by that and by the crash, of course.

Also, founding of blood knight order probably took some time, as well as their training and growing in prominence. As I pointed out above, blood knights were important factor for inviting blood elves to the Horde.

Actually, we do not know how long it took for the exodar to arrive, there is no information that says it took 5 days or 6 months.
the trip to argus took little time because illidan created a giant portal in space
I repeat it is better not to focus on the draenei because the information we have is little and contradictory until the devs give us more information

[sighy]

You end by saying times change and people change. That's not the case here. It's also a huge pothole in warcraft lore, as well. Not enough time has passed between the sundering and the third war for the night elves and high elves to not know each other.

Many of the high elves alive are the highborne that were excommunicated. Most of the night elves alive are the ones that saw them off.

Granted it has been 10,000 years, roughly, so there is plenty of younger elves. But it hasnt been so long that generations have completely passed, and it's not some ancient history. Think of it this way: Tyrande is a contemporary to Kael'thas' father, Anasterian.

So, that distrust toward the night elves isn't some vestige of history, it's the same exact people in conflict.

To be fair that's not even close to the biggest TBC blelf plothole. All along it's your goal to join Kael'thas in Outland and it's one of the big reasons Blelves actively seek assistance, but when you get there basically right away you join an insurgent group, which you're directly told opposes him, while having no good reason to do that. Even among the Scryers it's suggested that it is not widely known that Sunfury have dealings with the Legion, with the commander halfway through Netherstorm commenting that Azarad is an odd name, for a Sin'dorei.

Hell Malf&Tyrande knew Kael personally from their journey into EK, but i agree on the point of them being roughly in the age group of his grandparents/great grandparent more or less.

[ravenmoon]

I wouldn't mind if night elves just spied and gathered intel... but they did not do just that. They also sabotaged one Sanctum in Eversong and likely wanted to sabotage more of them, which put blood elves into grave danger. If the sabotage did not happen, we can discuss if blood elves should at least find out why are night elves spying on them, but since they were damaging one their only defense they had against the Scourge, they had to put them down to prevent disaster.

So, night elves spying is not that unimaginable. They are sneaky and we've seen they tend to observe and then strike. The thing is, blood elves in Quel'thalas did not do anything that bad. If the night elves were not so prejudiced against arcane as you speak, practising magic and operating arcane sanctums should not be issue for them. The only sight of demonic magic were fel crystals used for draining magic, so if anything, I can rather imagine night elves damaging these crystals, which would use chaos as well, as they were use to sustain blood elves in their thirst at the time.

Go check the quest. It wasn’t the night elves that sabotaged the sanctum. When the spy was discovered it was thought so but, if I remember correctly it wasn’t actually Darnassian Sabotage. But I could be wrong. So do go check the quest

[darkoms]

My god, how many polls you created for 2 last monts?

[loras]

That's true! But the problem is, in WoW the villains are never working towards peace, and unfortunately the villain bat often lands on the Horde leadership.

Horde leadership not wanting peace after all that has occurred in game simply does not make sense anymore. It can't given how big of threats we've faced, and how much bigger threats we may face in the future. The solution is ALWAYS to put aside the Horde/Alliance war and face the threat together. It does not make sense for any of the Horde nor Alliance leadership to think otherwise.

I do agree they've made the Horde far too war mongering, to a ridiculous extent that makes them seem idiotic and incompetent.

Personally i think they should have preserved a more genuine moral balance by having the Alliance just move out of line, i had some hope for that after Stormheim but it seems that was both the beginning and the end of it

[Feanoro]

to be fair the Alliance had 6 years to help Quel'thalas from the Scourge/Amani/Wretched so they might not have to join the Horde out of desperation, but they didn't

Yeah, they definitely weren't dealing with the Scourge themselves or any other problems, just twiddling their thumbs. Also, why should they prioritize people who abandoned the Alliance over active members?

[Niwes]

to be honest: after 16 years of playing wow and reading of all books till illidan, at this point (of shit writing) i honestly give a fuck.

since wow lore turned into biggest BS in history, cause of cheap shit writing, i simply no longer care. not. even. a. bit. i just give a fuck.

i play the game for the parts that still are fun to me (spoiler: not much left there too) and thats it. i was once the guy reading all that complete quest texts. and thx to ppl like Danuser or Ion, not caring about all that BS, i have lost ANY interest in wow lore, i ever had. and years ago, that was a huge deal to me, and a big part of what made wow great for me. reading great books in a world, that you actually play, was great. and then play further in that world and see what happens. it was great (at least to me).

i mean, ofc, wow ingame story, even in WotlK or TBC never was that great. but it was well rounded at least and not complete BS. also MoP had, imo, a tight story. far away from what we have seen the last couple of years. however…

today i completely give a fuck. and i was already old, before wow story started sucking and sounding like a story of a 12 year old kid. so it not cause of „i get older“. they just ruined that whole thing by endless recycling chars and lore (like Illidan or that endless repeating of org lore) and all that cheap shit BS stories.

so i choosed „other“.

[Ardenaso]

Yeah, they definitely weren't dealing with the Scourge themselves or any other problems, just twiddling their thumbs. Also, why should they prioritize people who abandoned the Alliance over active members?

they were sending soldiers on other parts of the world like Silithus, Eastern Plaguelands, Molten Core, etc. but for some reason not on the land just above the Eastern Plaguelands

and if we're discarding the Blood Elves because they "abandoned the Alliance" then the Alliance can't complain that the Blood Elves went Horde

[Feanoro]

they were sending soldiers on other parts of the world like Silithus, Eastern Plaguelands, Molten Core, etc. but for some reason not on the land just above the Eastern Plaguelands

and if we're discarding the Blood Elves because they "abandoned the Alliance" then the Alliance can't complain that the Blood Elves went Horde

So the BElves have no responsibility or agency? They can't ask for help from their former allies because...?

Abandoning a group means you refuse to help them, or did you miss that the Alliance had plenty of catastrophic problems at the time? No, you laid out some of those problems yourself. You don't get to cry when that group doesn't come running to help you, especially when they have their hands full with other problems. It certainly doesn't excuse becoming the group's mortal enemy because you couldn't eat some humble pie and ASK for help.

[Ardenaso]

It certainly doesn't excuse becoming the group's mortal enemy because you couldn't eat some humble pie and ASK for help.

I guess it does when those who rescue and save you are the group's mortal enemy and of course you will join them because you are indebted to them and some of the group's henchmen decides to spy on you and sabotage the essential energy sources that basically keeps you alive

definitely 100% the Alliance's fault they didn't come to their aid before the Horde did

[Feanoro]

I guess it does when those who rescue and save you are the group's mortal enemy and of course you will join them because you are indebted to them and some of the group's henchmen decides to spy on you and sabotage the essential energy sources that basically keeps you alive

definitely 100% the Alliance's fault they didn't come to their aid before the Horde did

I get it, you WANT it to be the Alliance's fault, even though I've pointed out the in game reasons why things happened. Remember though, it was lore servicing gameplay like a cheap hooker because the Asian audiences wanted a pretty race.

[Psychotrip]

Considering the blood elves primary leader was siding with the legion, and the people as a whole were embracing fel magic, I'd say they were definitely justified.

Granted, they likely didnt know that at the time, and they were basing their suspicions on thousand year old prejudice.

[Tanaria]

Considering the blood elves primary leader was siding with the legion, and the people as a whole were embracing fel magic, I'd say they were definitely justified.

Granted, they likely didnt know that at the time, and they were basing their suspicions on thousand year old prejudice.

This is an error that people make.

The Blood Elves of Silvermoon were not embracing fel magic. Many of the Magisters remained as Mages.
It was fel radiance that echoed through Quel'Thalas, that turned the Elves' eyes green.

It wasn't even the use of fel magic that made the High Elven Ranger want to leave. It was the arcane magical practice of tapping magic out of living things. That is what they were against - not fel magic, as High Elves have wielded fel magic before, such as Summoner Nolric and Magistrix Soulgaze.

The Elves who were embracing fel magic were those in Netherstorm.

Plus, if the Night Elves were so much against the use of using demonic magic and the sort...why only target the Blood Elves, when the Humans and Gnomes, Stormwind and Ironforge respectively, were training their people's to become Warlocks.