Should the horde be made to pay for the crimes of their leaders?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

If that's the case, should the Alliance be made to pay the Undead for Lordaeron and Arthas? Don't even get me started on the Elves either.

Why would the alliance need to pay the undead any thing? arthas was there prince if any thing they should be paying every one else.

[Feanoro]

Why would the alliance need to pay the undead any thing? arthas was there prince if any thing they should be paying every one else.

Because a whole lot of Horde posters view everything through the lens of race and not lore. "Human == Alliance, derefore Alliance made dah Scoruge!"

[Syegfryed]

No one but you and every other Horde apologist. Always convenient how you forget the Genedar crash landed, or how the orcs are poor ignorant primitives only when it suits your sick draenei victim blaming narrative.

it crashed there yes, but why not warn the citizens of the demons coming up? is like you are hiding from assassin in someone house and never warn the people living that that you are being hunted down, they chose to be silent and don't tel anyone, no heads up, everyone there was susceptible to be deceived

"BuT dAh oRcS wUz TrIcKeD!" No, THEY CHOSE. The propaganda Horde fans push is that they were peaceful shamanistic tribes. If so, then massacring the draenei should have been completely unnatural to them, something carried out with great reluctance and as efficiently and humanely as possible.

they chose because they were tricked to do so, rly, your bia is showing.

That's not what happened.

They went full into being bloodthirsty, vicious monsters before the demon blood was even administered. They raped draenei women, laughed as the hacked apart children slowly, tortured draenei souls for warlock powers, and enjoyed every second of the slaughter. THEY CHOSE all of that before the excuse of demon blood was even an option, and all the demon blood did was heighten their aggression. It didn't force them to do a damn thing.

That's canon, tough shit that you don't like it.

"that wa snot what happened" procced to be biased and extrapolate things, just like an alliance fan would do, of course, forgetting that that point th shadow council and the warlocks were already toying with fel magic, because sure how they will "torture souls" without out? lmao

That's canon, tough shit that you don't like it.

i mean, it is not, but sure, go for it, the bias is like that anyway.

[Ardenaso]

to be fair the Draenei could've easily warned the orcs and ogres about the looming Legion threat and perhaps made them unite each other against them but no, it's the negligence that caused their own downfall, and yet another planet indirectly destroyed by them

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

to be fair the Draenei could've easily warned the orcs and ogres about the looming Legion threat and perhaps made them unite each other against them but no, it's the negligence that caused their own downfall, and yet another planet indirectly destroyed by them

The draenei had no way of knowing if the orcs and ogres would believe them about the Burning Legion or if they were even intelligent and open-minded enough to really grasp the concept of an army of demons destroying worlds which they had never seen or heard about before and without evidence of it being real.

Imagine telling that to another species who's still at a medieval or antiquity level, is largely uneducated and who's already wary of you, I don't think that you would have much success unless the Burning Legion itself came in person and mass to Draenor. It took the destruction of Stormwind and proofs of the existence of the Horde for the other human kingdoms to believe that the orcs and the Horde existed for real.

The orcs' reaction when Velen tried to tell them the truth about Oshu'gun is also rather indicative.

[Trumpcat]

The Horde as a political organization should be dismantled. You don't just swap the leader of a dictatorial warmachine regime, you remove the entire regime.

[Zuben]

The Horde as a political organization should be dismantled. You don't just swap the leader of a dictatorial warmachine regime, you remove the entire regime.

Which they did. Instead of a dictator they now have a council system, for better or worse.

[Trumpcat]

Which they did. Instead of a dictator they now have a council system, for better or worse.

They only changed the leadership, the war machine is the same. When the Soviet Union or the Third Reich ended, it wasn't just a leader replaced with another or with a council of leaders. The entire political and military structure was reorganized, including leaving former member nations independent. The Horde as a political entity should not exist because it is in conception a war machine built on a society where war is a way of life and lack of conflict is stagnation and lethargy. The only hostility that this warmongering faction faces is in retaliation to its own conquests and transgressions.

The writers keep making and breaking a united Horde+Alliance force that defends the world, but of course it cannot last when half of it sees the other half as a coveted target.

[Syegfryed]

The draenei had no way of knowing if the orcs and ogres would believe them about the Burning Legion or if they were even intelligent and open-minded enough to really grasp the concept of an army of demons destroying worlds which they had never seen or heard about before and without evidence of it being real.

totally bullshit, they could have at least fucking tried, and yes, the ogres and orcs were intelligent enough to grasp the concept, the draeneis fought the ogres who were much advanced that time and interacted with orcs before, they were completely negligent about the whole situation.

Imagine telling that to another species who's still at a medieval or antiquity level, is largely uneducated and who's already wary of you

At least they would have tried, they had countless of ways of convincing the draenor races, Kil'jaden did easily, Garrosh did it, they just didn't give two shits about the lowly races in this "unciviled" planet.

[Hellobolis]

They only changed the leadership, the war machine is the same. When the Soviet Union or the Third Reich ended, it wasn't just a leader replaced with another or with a council of leaders. The entire political and military structure was reorganized, including leaving former member nations independent. The Horde as a political entity should not exist because it is in conception a war machine built on a society where war is a way of life and lack of conflict is stagnation and lethargy. The only hostility that this warmongering faction faces is in retaliation to its own conquests and transgressions.

The writers keep making and breaking a united Horde+Alliance force that defends the world, but of course it cannot last when half of it sees the other half as a coveted target.

should really doesn't come into it, just like it doesn't IRL. if the change doesn't happen voluntarily it must come through force. the alliance currently doesn't have the force to enact this change. and every time they were in a position where they could force change they chose not to.

[Syegfryed]

The Horde as a political organization should be dismantled. You don't just swap the leader of a dictatorial warmachine regime, you remove the entire regime.

You talk like the alliance have enough manpower to do that.

[EnacheV]

what crimes?

[Enter Name Here]

OPs thread history makes it look like you're an intern at blizzard who was told to get some opinions about potential expansion stuff from long time players

[Feanoro]

stuff

"Oh shit, I have no arguments. Better fall back on screeching 'bias' as if I had none and 'Alliance fan' which makes my bias blindingly clear!"

Again, tough shit if you don't like the canon.

- - - Updated - - -

The draenei had no way of knowing if the orcs and ogres would believe them about the Burning Legion or if they were even intelligent and open-minded enough to really grasp the concept of an army of demons destroying worlds which they had never seen or heard about before and without evidence of it being real.

Imagine telling that to another species who's still at a medieval or antiquity level, is largely uneducated and who's already wary of you, I don't think that you would have much success unless the Burning Legion itself came in person and mass to Draenor. It took the destruction of Stormwind and proofs of the existence of the Horde for the other human kingdoms to believe that the orcs and the Horde existed for real.

The orcs' reaction when Velen tried to tell them the truth about Oshu'gun is also rather indicative.

But the Horde posters here have assured us up and down the orcs were wise, intelligent, not easily provoked, gentle little lambs who wouldn't hurt a fly. How can you use lore and logic to defame that image and blow apart their victim blaming?

[Martymark]

Players should be made to pay for the crimes of NPCs.

[Syegfryed]

"Oh shit, I have no arguments. Better fall back on screeching 'bias' as if I had none and 'Alliance fan' which makes my bias blindingly clear!"

Again, tough shit if you don't like the canon.

exagerating what happened, ignoring others and appealing to emmotions will not make your argument better

But the Horde posters here have assured us up and down the orcs were wise, intelligent, not easily provoked, gentle little lambs who wouldn't hurt a fly. How can you use lore and logic to defame that image and blow apart their victim blaming?

completely ignoring how orcs lived in peace for hundred of years before the legion coming, cherrypicking evidence as it finest, then claiming what is canon, like i said, your bias is showing.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Its pretty much already water under the bridge. Every expansion we pretty much save the world together. Now we even are conquering death together. Seems pretty cut and dry. They do bad stuff but we always eventually forgive and forget for the good of the whole universe thing.

[AcidicSyn]

Honestly I'd pay for a War Crimes book where the trial happens but she doesn't conveniently get away like Garrosh. Just:

Tyrande: Guilty.
Voss: Guilty.
Ghosts of Thomas Zelling and Saurfang: Guilty.
Ghost of Vellcinda "Elsie" Benton: Guilty.
Koltira Deathweaver: Guilty.
Ghost of Garithos: I told you fools never to trust an elf! GUILTY!
Genn Greymane: Guilty.
Anduin: Guilty.
Calia Menethil: Guilty.
Baine: Hmmmm....
*Everyone glares at Baine*
Guilty.

And she gets executed, The End.


(edit: It really says something how many times I had to edit this one because I remembered some other relatively innocent character Sylvanas wronged)

This would be hilarious. Except I'd make one change. When Garithos chimes in everyone shushes him.

I'd also add more Horde characters to the chorus.

[Jastall]

Because a whole lot of Horde posters view everything through the lens of race and not lore. "Human == Alliance, derefore Alliance made dah Scoruge!"

To say nothing of the fact that with this mindset, the Scourge was the Horde's fault since the head honcho at the time used to be an Orc.

[DatToffer]

Imagine if Blizzard actually surprises us, and after helping us stop the Jailer or whatever, Sylvanas is executed for her crimes. No farce of a trial on Pandaria, she's just straight up executed. That would be something.

Something that would not appear on screen though. Because I don't see them deliver a death penalty to a wide audience.

This kind of thing would happen off-screen if it happens at all.