Should the horde be made to pay for the crimes of their leaders?

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Someone else mentioned an idea of an occupied Orgrimmar, I'm curious about this.

Like changing the guards around similar to how Korkron were added to undercity in Wrath. Seeing blue tabards walking around Org.

As a player character....could I.....could I attack those guards? Just imagining an Org where players are constantly killing guards as they spawn. (maybe the level/strength or kinds of guards goes up as they die until riot teams spawn to put down trouble makers? Give people who attack guards a rioter debuff for 10mins and they can either wait it out or pay some arbitrary amount of gold to bribe the guards? Could be entertaining)

Would other cities have Alliance presences too? Similar to how the US still maintains an airbase in japan, would one of the bluffs in Thunderbluff play host to a Gnomish airfield? What would occupied Horde cities look like if Blizzard did this? (naturally horde players still have to be able to play as they do now so can't just wipe them out (sorry Val).

Let's say Admiral Taylor becomes the American Shogun Stormwind Warchief. I'd imagine that his forces would mainly garrison a single area of Orgrimmar, ie the Valley of Strength. So you'd mainly see Alliance troops and officials there. The area would be heavily fortified and gated to defend against uprisings. Alliance airships would be flying overhead on standby ready to commence bombardment if any uprisings broke out. For the rest of the city, you'd mainly see pacified former-Horde races acting as officials and guards on behalf of the Alliance government. Alliance officials and contractors would sometimes walk out of the Valley of Strength into other areas of Orgrimmar and Kalimdor (places such as Crossroads) to perform administrative tasks, supervise the construction of water pipelines and schools, etc.

I don't see much of an Alliance presence being required in other cities. Orgrimmar is mainly where the war hawk types are concentrated. Maybe you have a few tents at Thunder Bluff where Alliance observers lodge at, and that's it. No military presence really required, as the people there predominately are not war hawks and the city is run by a leader who actually has a working brain and doesn't want to antagonize an alliance that wipe out his city overnight. Similarly Silvermoon would probably get off with little to no Alliance presence, as they're not really troublemakers and their leader understands that it is in their best interest to just sit tight and not do anything. Zandalar, Thunder Totem, Suramar, etc are probably going to need some Alliance military presence, though.

Bilgewater Harbor would probably be deemed unsafe and environmentally unfriendly by Alliance engineers, who would recommend that it be torn down and rebuilt. The Alliance would probably try building up a Kalimdor economy that is not dependent on Goblins, that way when the Alliance leave in a couple decades, Kalimdor doesn't turn back to shoddy Goblin engineering. You might see construction companies or factories owned by Orcs, etc.

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You realize most of the conflicts started because of the Alliance right? lmao. for example the burning of Teldrassil and all of BFA was because the Alliance was killing noncombatant goblin miners in Silithus with SI:7 Agents.

In the Before the Storm novel, the war is predicated upon Sylvanas deluding herself into thinking that the big scary Alliance is - for some reason - going to come after the Horde. Since the Alliance is way stronger, the Horde would lose in such a war. Therefore, she needs to strike first. Her plan was to try to capture and occupy Teldrassil and use it as a bargaining chip with the Alliance, thinking the Anduin would play along. Ofcourse, right there you have several different contradictions in her line of thinking (for what reason would the Alliance try to destroy the Horde, especially when it is lead by Anduin, who Sylvanas believes is passive enough to just go along with her scheme?). But Sylvanas' motivations were then immediately retconned a year later, so who knows.

Now that I think about it, this kind of stupid doublethink "our enemies are going to attack us! If we don't strike first we'll be wiped out!" thinking seems to be really prevalent in the Horde. As @The Stormbringer mentioned, you had the Horde launching a preemptive strike on the Draenei (who they had been neighbors with for many years, and the Draenei never once exhibited any hostile or militaristic tendencies) with very little evidence. They didn't even bother to check to see if there was any military buildup going on (could have been easily accomplished with their shaman's far sight or their good old fashioned scouts in the field). And in Tides of War, Garrosh's entire reason for bombing Theramore is predicated upon acknowledging that the Alliance is straight up stronger and more experienced than them, so his only hope is trying to gather together their experienced officers in one place and wiping them out (that, and the shock value of wiping out a city).

[Zyky]

In the Before the Storm novel, the war is predicated upon Sylvanas deluding herself into thinking that the big scary Alliance is - for some reason - going to come after the Horde.

This is a narrative they used for story-telling, this is not factual sequence of events. With knowledge we have now, we know that Sylvanas wanted to march on Teldrassil to send souls into the maw, she wouldn't have gotten the support to do so without an actual reason. What was the reason? The Alliance killing non-combatants in Silithus. This was enough for Saurfang to back Sylvanas' plan, he would have never followed her to burn a world tree if there wasn't an actual reason because of HONOR. The other leaders would not have allowed her to do this without a justifiable reason, nor would they have defended her during the Battle for Undercity. These are just facts, not opinions.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

This is a narrative they used for story-telling, this is not factual sequence of events. With knowledge we have now, we know that Sylvanas wanted to march on Teldrassil to send souls into the maw, she wouldn't have gotten the support to do so without an actual reason. What was the reason? The Alliance killing non-combatants in Silithus. This was enough for Saurfang to back Sylvanas' plan, he would have never followed her to burn a world tree if there wasn't an actual reason because of HONOR. The other leaders would not have allowed her to do this without a justifiable reason, nor would they have defended her during the Battle for Undercity. These are just facts, not opinions.

Sylvanas had already provoked conflict between the Horde and the Alliance in Legion by not even trying to contact them to explain what happened at the Broken Shore and she already knew she had a bad reputation and how that would have been perceived. And then she immediately plunges into Stormheim and then begins butchering her way through the country trying to find Valkyr to enslave, confirming everything the Alliance believed her to be. A conquering warmonger. No one should have a surprise Pikachu face when the Alliance treats her forces as conquering warmongers.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

This is a narrative they used for story-telling, this is not factual sequence of events. With knowledge we have now, we know that Sylvanas wanted to march on Teldrassil to send souls into the maw, she wouldn't have gotten the support to do so without an actual reason. What was the reason? The Alliance killing non-combatants in Silithus. This was enough for Saurfang to back Sylvanas' plan, he would have never followed her to burn a world tree if there wasn't an actual reason because of HONOR. The other leaders would not have allowed her to do this without a justifiable reason, nor would they have defended her during the Battle for Undercity. These are just facts, not opinions.

the miners being killed aren't what Got Saurfang on her side she doesn't even mention any thing beyond clashes with alliance explores and with the book we know they were active combatant's and that its likely they started the fighting in Silithus when they ambushed the explores league.

[Feanoro]

The whole Saurfang story in BfA failed from the beginning. He's obsessed with honor, yet agrees to a cowardly plan that involves holding civilians hostage. Typical of the "mighty" Horde.

[Dazmalak]

Eh, only if the Horde are allowed to actually be truly the evil force of destruction they are made out to be. Warcraft is the YA novel version of a war-themed franchise, I take their villains about as seriously as a Saturday morning cartoon.

Honestly with this real world application of war crimes to a fucking fantasy game...smh. What do you get out of it? Validation for your own sense of moral superiority? A #goteamblue pep rally? Hell, the Horde is already Alliance-lite, why bother punishing them when it's all just one big happy Azeroth family now? They've gone through numerous main characters and warchiefs and are running so low they have to recruit Alliance names to fill their dwindling ranks (Calia specifically). Unless you just want to rub salt in the wound because you're petty...in that case it makes sense.

[sighy]

No arguments there, but since after 16 years of WoW and two full-blown faction wars Blizzard has proven completely unable to do this, I don't expect it to happen anymore. The definition of insanity and all that. In-universe they treat the faction conflict as a vehicle for soap opera drama and Horde villain batting for the purposes of moving the plat along and creating raid bosses, while out of universe it's a marketing tool they bust out from time to time when there's a need to "bring the war back to Warcraft" as if we were having tea and biscuits with the Legion or something.

You know, the most infuriating thing about BfA was that they had established reasoning for the Horde, but threw it all away. The Red Herring, with the continuous diplomatic fuck ups out of Anduin and the premise of creating peace on Horde's terms was 1 000 000 000% more interesting than hail satan no, not that one.

There is a merit to interfaction stories, if done well and if anything between N'zoth and Shadowlands we've learnt that Blizz can't write those well either xD

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I think you misunderstand the appeal of the Alliance. They don't need inter racial conflict like the Horde. They don't need to be committing warcrimes or atrocities. The appeal of the Alliance is that they're the good guys. They've got their shit together. People play Horde because they want to be a cool evil beastman conqueror who fights everyone. People play Alliance because they want to be a good guy who fights for peace and security. The stability, the beauty, and the actual, legit honor of the Alliance is its core appeal.

I understand both the tropes and the benefits/downsides of subverting them. It's inconsequential to the point of my post however, because that was regarding the quality of storytelling, from Horde perspective specifically. While Horde fanbase tends to gravitate toward edgy stuff there is no excuse for Blizzard being too lazy or biased to give them something to fight for. You know proper motivations, stakes and the like, where they believe their actions are, if not right then necessary. (Hero of their own story kind of deal)

(As far as the Aliance being creative dead weight of static do nothingness, as you admitted that's sort of the point... wasn't always like this mind you there used to be a time, when Aliance was the side with interesting stories, political intrigue and all that)

[Zyky]

Sylvanas had already provoked conflict between the Horde and the Alliance in Legion by not even trying to contact them to explain what happened at the Broken Shore and she already knew she had a bad reputation and how that would have been perceived. And then she immediately plunges into Stormheim and then begins butchering her way through the country trying to find Valkyr to enslave, confirming everything the Alliance believed her to be. A conquering warmonger. No one should have a surprise Pikachu face when the Alliance treats her forces as conquering warmongers.

Again you're wrong, the entire conflict in Stormheim was started by the Alliance by Genn Greymane and Sky Admiral Rogers giving orders to attack the Horde fleet at sea before ever reaching Stormheim.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

There's no shortage of people who think the idiotic stalemate of the faction conflict is the core of Warcraft, because somehow we haven't moved on from WC1.

We did with TFT. There was absolutely zero Horde vs Alliance anywhere in that expansion. The Founding of Durotar was a bonus mission in a patch. Strangely every single installment in the franchise after TFT has Horde vs Alliance involved in some way or another, even the expansions that are ostensibly about everyone fighting together against a big bad.

[Varjo410]

Too busy fixing paintings nobody ever knew were there to notice blatant cases of sexual assault & rape in lore.

[Feanoro]

We did with TFT. There was absolutely zero Horde vs Alliance anywhere in that expansion. The Founding of Durotar was a bonus mission in a patch. Strangely every single installment in the franchise after TFT has Horde vs Alliance involved in some way or another, even the expansions that are ostensibly about everyone fighting together against a big bad.

Apologies, I was being sarcastic in that post.

Yes, we definitely moved beyond it, but some people, sadly including devs and writers, seem to think the whole franchise is just Orcs versus Humans. That's fine in an RTS where one side will lose, but not in a setting where neither will ever be allowed to lose.

[vilememory]

The whole Saurfang story in BfA failed from the beginning. He's obsessed with honor, yet agrees to a cowardly plan that involves holding civilians hostage. Typical of the "mighty" Horde.

Typical of the shitty writing by Blizzard making characters forget their character growth to fit the current narrative. Just wait until they decide to dumb up the Alliance to push some insane idea that pops into the latest writer's head. Oh hey, Jaina has gone evil because Anduin is now a mindless meat puppet after the Jailer's domination magic lobotomized him and she is now trying to wipe out both the Horde and Alliance! Meanwhile the Alliance is going full Light Fascit and the Horde is having ANOTHER CIVIL WAR BECAUSE SOMEBODY ON THE COUNCIL WANTED ANCHOVIES AND PINEAPPLE ON THE PIZZA!

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

The whole Saurfang story in BfA failed from the beginning. He's obsessed with honor, yet agrees to a cowardly plan that involves holding civilians hostage. Typical of the "mighty" Horde.

The whole thing was a farce, he was supposed to have understood the lessons of what he and the rest of the Old Horde did and to have become the atoner, only for him to willingly agree with and follow Sylvanas and fail to realize that she was an evil bitch no better than Gul'dan, Blackhand and Garrosh despite it being blablantly obvious until the burning of Teldrassil and then suddenly to onlh remember his honor and morals here.

[Super Dickmann]

Didn't we already do that story, though? The Alliance beat the Horde in WC2. Lord of the Clans and WC3 is ostensibly about Thrall trying overcome the ghosts of the Horde's past, dissolving the clan system, trying to restructure a nomadic barbarian society into a settled nation like Lordaeron, and telling people "don't be warmongering assholes". But then in WoW they're back to their old warmongering tendencies and he hands the reigns over to a warmongering asshole.

It's why I specified 'through WoW'. The only time they've done something close to that story is Lord of the Clans and the context of the two are very different. For one it's a book and so non-interactive. By the time Warcraft 3 rolls around the Horde has already changed and changed totally from its WC2 characterization as a LOTR orc pastiche to noble savages fighting with honor with no holdouts present except Grom. The first thing to happen isn't Thrall struggling to convince Lordaeron of his people, since his only contact with Lordaeron is from 'Of Blood and Honor', it's a clairvoyant telling him where he can go to avoid the humans entirely and get his own place to stay.

For the original game the Horde never faces someone with an in-built grievance against them nor are they put in a situation where they have any compelling reason to 'want' to fight the baddie. With Lordaeron being destroyed and the other kingdoms having no role in the plot him and Jaina end up with a clean slate and go to a new world where they can set up issue-free. For the same reason both Thrall and Jaina are pretty standard heroes who've got their shit together. The only time Thrall threatens to actually have a character moment that's about his perception of his people and how his view may be rosetinted is when Grom tells him that the orcish blood drinking is deliberate, but this idea of culpability doesn't actually go anywhere until the expansion. In said expansion, while Daelin is characterized a lot more humanely, you're at the end point where he's operating entirely out of preassumed racial guilt. His voice acting, which is a lot better there than when Mark Addy takes him over in BFA, does a lot to humanize him, but at the end of the day he isn't there because of any kind of competition or struggle between the humans and orcs, who seem to be fine, but because of the impression he has that they're still the WC2 Horde in mindset. Thrall, Rexxar etc. have no connection to any of this and so they don't develop in it all either. Any logistical or societal grounds for a continued conflict or regarding transforming what were first hunter-gatherers and then a drug-fueled Mongol Horde into a stable medieval-style society is absent and culpability is a moot point - after Grom kicks the bucket no one in the Horde is culpable of anything and no WC2 Horde characters appear. Daelin consequently is a strawman and the orcs and humans in general end up perfunctory to the overall ongoing plot which is why this whole thing is a bonus campaign.

A post-Garrosh occupation would be an entirely different kettle of fish. Compared to the bird's eye view of the RTS where actually providing the perspective of Joe Average is impossible in this case you're positioned to provide exactly that. Unlike sidestepping the culpability of the participants the whole reason you'd occupy Orgrimmar there is because of the culpability of the majority of orcs. Instead of Medivh showing up with a get out of jail card for a situation where after breaking out, Thrall's Horde would still have to contest the Kingdom of Lordaeron and reunite the clans and somehow remain functional with the same resources, now they share the same space result in the competition the writers binned initially. Further, because both the orcs and the assorted races of the Horde are rational actors or principally just actors at all rather than mute accompaniments to Thrall's off-screen reformation of the entire race into clones of the same dude, you have actual politics involved in how the Alliance would manage such an occupation, be it going full ham in dusting the Forsaken or trying to renegotiate the blood elves' entry back into the Alliance after Jaina sank it last go a round. Have it ongoing in the background of whatever the main plot is where the Alliance would have the primary role - a role they already have anyway. Let's say WoD for example where on one hand you have a reenactment of Beyond the Dark Portal, and on the other you have the Alliance trying to manage an occupation with all the drama that comes with it. Have the Alliance win singlehanded against this kind of world enemy but be depleted for when the Legion or someone with bigger guns comes in without much of a break, allowing the Horde to reform as the occupied territories get squeezed to try and push the war effort vs. whichever this bigger bad is. Have it reform to match those needs, set up a status quo from there on out.

From there you've brought the factions back closer to parity from the ending of Mists where the Horde cannibalized itself in its attempt to lose, allowing the Horde to suffer consequences while the Alliance gets to be the big dog for a while. The Horde gets to be the underdog that some people want it to be for some reason despite how it was in WC1 and 2 and the Horde being stronger than any human force except Lordaeron found across all of WC3 and Stormwind being just as much a depopulated shithole as Orgrmmar after Orgrim and Blackhand reduced the boring asshole population there to an amount that could escape on a few boats or fit in the sewers respectively. IT also means that Horde aren't canonically involved in offing yet more of their WC2 cast on behalf of WC2 Alliance characters and the Thrall meets his mum bs isn't repeated. The benefits are endless.

I think you misunderstand the appeal of the Alliance. They don't need inter racial conflict like the Horde. They don't need to be committing warcrimes or atrocities. The appeal of the Alliance is that they're the good guys. They've got their shit together. People play Horde because they want to be a cool evil beastman conqueror who fights everyone. People play Alliance because they want to be a good guy who fights for peace and security. The stability, the beauty, and the actual, legit honor of the Alliance is its core appeal.

I know this is part of your bit complaining second-hand about noblesavagery getting the shaft. So much like wanking about those draenei ships that have gotten oneshot every time they've been used or about the industrial capacity of a city that almost had its shit kicked in by a Gurubashi remnant wearing loincloths there's not much point arguing it, but it is still objectively wrong. Internal conflict is precisely what the Alliance was about it's the whole reason it was an Alliance in the first place since Lothar and Terenas had to wrangle kings with wildly different personalities and agendas together to make it work. It's also why it collapses right after WC2. This is preserved in the lead up to WC3 - Blackmoore is a corrupt asshole essentially left to do his thing, Lordaeron collapses because Medivh is a raging lunatic none of the Kings listen to him and the humans and high elves don't cooperate on any kind of large scale. The only one we see n Lordaeron proper in TFT is Garithos, who's a cartoon character who serves to further fracture this relation.

This doesn't change in Classic proper, where Stormwind is not characterized by stability but complete dysfunction, being beset by bandits, corrupt nobility who dicked over their workers and for a time pushing a proxy war in Lordaeron through the Scarlet Crusade. Their king is a child with his top advisors being a neutered apparatchik and a black dragon. The only ones who've got their shit together are the dwarves, who're an imperialist force so transparent in that regard that they literally have a quest called the Sovereign Imperative which spells out the policy under which they go to as far as Mulgore to loot and plunder:

We are fighting a brutal battle in the valleys of Alterac. The savage Frostwolf Clan challenges the might of the Stormpike! They must be exterminated in the name of King Magni Bronzebeard! The taking, culling, and turning of that land is a sovereign and territorial imperative to the kingdom of Ironforge.

Only the Night Elves, already neutered, sidestep this and they're the biggest casualty of it. The Alliance in Vanilla is an internally and externally conflicted force that has reasons to engage in proactive conflict throughout the world and does so. It has high stated virtues and aspirations, but it's also composed of actual people so that structure is prone to being affected by internal spats about personal issues, material corruption, etc. This kind of split between aspiraton and reality is a goldmine. Consequently it easily has the most plot of the two factions, with nothing on the Kalimdor Horde being remotely comparable to the multi-zone endgames that are the entire Stormwind/Missing King related conspiracy or the conflict with the Dark Iron. It was the Kalidmor Horde that was the static faction of noblesavages wanting to exist vegetatively and so consequently having no plot except to tell you to help the Alliance with the conclusions of their stories. Even then, the quest dialogue was already moving away from that to prepare for the larger shift in direction back towards their actually plot-relevant WC2 incarnation in later expansions. The story was positioned to allow both factions to be proactive figures with competing interests and while they've occasionally managed it's in Mists that they critically fucked this up.

[Ragedaug]

Simply put, much of the problems in the WoW lore can be directly attributed to horde leaders who have done horrible things. Should the horde be made to pay for those crimes in some way?

Simply put, everything the Horde did was directly attributed to the leaders of Eredar. It's always been laughable that the Warcraft lore writers have the Draenei hating the Orcs for what the Orcs did while they were basically mind controlled by the Draenei's own people, the Eredar.

Also, lets not forget what the human leader Arthas did...that was some pretty bad stuff. And the Night Elf leader Illidan leading up to the Sundering. Can't forget about Dwarven leader Thane Thaurissan or Gnomish leader Mekgineer Thermaplugg killing an estimated 80% of the gnomish population.


In a way we are all being made to pay. The lore writers are using it as a lame excuse to continue the faction war. "Lets make a few bad guys, then have each faction hate and want to kill everyone from the other faction because of what a handful of the leaders did".

[Syegfryed]

You didn't address anything. You're simply trying to characterize my arguments, following your usual pattern of "ignore substance, scream bias" when you don't have an argument.

why will i address your bias and your exaggeration? that is something you have to address yourself.

I notice you carefully dodged how they fought each other.

I didn't, every race fight each other, even the humans that you put in the pedestal fight each other and they would eat themselves if it was not by the horde, same for dwarves and elves, this is just natural of all races, but you are pretending this is a trait of the big bad orcs therefore, supporting your bias.

Hmmm, where did the goalposts go? Oh, I see, you moved them and tried to put words in my mouth.
.

don't try to play here, this is your point in all posts like this,

I haven't said one thing that isn't backed by canon. Yet again, tough shit if you don't like that canon

Yes, the problem here is how you cherrypick and nitpick the canon, blatantly ignore the context, just to support your bias.

[sam86]

Sorry, but "muh Taurajo" has become a meme years ago when Horde players brought it up EVERY TIME Horde does some shit, regardless of magnitude.

let me guess, u also love to 'ignore' that alliance favorite hobby is to genocide weaker races like belf (twice), goblins of kezan, forsaken, darkspear trolls? heck without alliance trying to kill anything on sight, current horde won't never been founded in first place, only taurens didn't get targeted by alliance for the horrible crime of dare just exist, and that's probably because alliance didn't know about Kalimdor

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Ugh. Don't get me started on the "ackshually, elves are descended from trolls!" retcon. Night Elves were the first race on Azeroth.

while nelfs strongly believe they are first, it was shown Trolls predates all other sentient races, they just broke up due to qiraji war
refuse this is denying current official lore facts, wait until they decide next chronicle was written by a monkey shitting out of his ass, but so far the current most recent official shitcon is trolls are first actual born race, probably only race was due to normal evolution too, without external effects on them

Those incidents were the exception, not the norm. Camp Taurajo was an accident based off of faulty intelligence, and when the commander realized what was going on he tried to allow as many civilians to escape as possible. The Dwarves were pricks and got what they deserved. Alterac Valley belongs to the human kingdoms. The Frostwolves are at fault for trying to stay there, rather than following Thrall to Kalimdor. The Alliance does not commit mass murder or atrocities on a regular basis like the Horde does.

i just listed, but in case u forgot, 4 of 6 major horde races were target of alliance favorite hobby of practice genocide against weaker races, i don't see anyone was judged in alliance for trying to kill every belf (twice), attack forsaken for dare being killed and risen as undead (against their will), goblins for just existing, or darkspear trolls for dare exist in their own lands in an island in middle of nowhere left everything to avoid conflict
heck let's not even start talk about how humans literally built their empires by actual only successful genocide on azeroth (so far) against another race by killing trolls and taking their lands, horde current hands are dirty, but humans alone bath in more blood than horde ever achieved, not counting draenei lovely hobby of escape BL and destroying endless planets in their path, even if stand and fight is actual option as shown by draenei HD in Legion instead of u know, doom unknown number of life forms to oblivion just in selfish path of survival, a path that literally proven to not been necessary as - again - in Legion we saw forces of light fighting BL on spaceship since same time as draenei escaped Argus, they just decided to not cause extinction on entire planet system scale and actually fight and stand their ground

[DatToffer]

Depends on which iteration of the Night Elves you are talking about. The original depiction of the Night Elves in WC3 were an empire unto their own that rivalled the entirety of the Eastern Kingdoms combined. They could have wiped the Horde off of the face of the map if they wanted to. Grommash says as much.

Despite agreeing on how WoW ruined the night elves, why would I chose another iteration of the night elves than the current one, for the current situation ?

The past is in the past, night elves are not the first race on Azeroth anymore. They are not even the first civilization. You can't just pull a past version of a people like that, what kind of way of thinking is that ?

[qwikz]

let me guess, u also love to 'ignore' that alliance favorite hobby is to genocide weaker races like belf (twice), goblins of kezan, forsaken, darkspear trolls? heck without alliance trying to kill anything on sight, current horde won't never been founded in first place, only taurens didn't get targeted by alliance for the horrible crime of dare just exist, and that's probably because alliance didn't know about Kalimdor

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while nelfs strongly believe they are first, it was shown Trolls predates all other sentient races, they just broke up due to qiraji war
refuse this is denying current official lore facts, wait until they decide next chronicle was written by a monkey shitting out of his ass, but so far the current most recent official shitcon is trolls are first actual born race, probably only race was due to normal evolution too, without external effects on them

i just listed, but in case u forgot, 4 of 6 major horde races were target of alliance favorite hobby of practice genocide against weaker races, i don't see anyone was judged in alliance for trying to kill every belf (twice), attack forsaken for dare being killed and risen as undead (against their will), goblins for just existing, or darkspear trolls for dare exist in their own lands in an island in middle of nowhere left everything to avoid conflict
heck let's not even start talk about how humans literally built their empires by actual only successful genocide on azeroth (so far) against another race by killing trolls and taking their lands, horde current hands are dirty, but humans alone bath in more blood than horde ever achieved, not counting draenei lovely hobby of escape BL and destroying endless planets in their path, even if stand and fight is actual option as shown by draenei HD in Legion instead of u know, doom unknown number of life forms to oblivion just in selfish path of survival, a path that literally proven to not been necessary as - again - in Legion we saw forces of light fighting BL on spaceship since same time as draenei escaped Argus, they just decided to not cause extinction on entire planet system scale and actually fight and stand their ground

Do you know what the word genocide actually means, or are you just throwing it around in a bad attempt to defend a faction you play? Alliance has never attempted to genocide the blood elves as people in these forums frequently claim, this was done specifically by the remaining army of Lordaeron led by Garithos who was racist and acted on his own, not representing the Alliance. Meanwhile you have the god damn warchief of the Horde herself ordering the death of an entire race and somehow you try to equate this to humans fighting wars over territory and land. They are not the same thing.

[DatToffer]

Do you know what the word genocide actually means, or are you just throwing it around in a bad attempt to defend a faction you play? Alliance has never attempted to genocide the blood elves as people in these forums frequently claim, this was done specifically by the remaining army of Lordaeron led by Garithos who was racist and acted on his own, not representing the Alliance. Meanwhile you have the god damn warchief of the Horde herself ordering the death of an entire race and somehow you try to equate this to humans fighting wars over territory and land. They are not the same thing.

Garithos tried to terminate the elf survivors and their king's bloodline. He was followed by the remaining Alliance forces in Lordaeron. So he represented the Alliance.

Sylvanas burnt the population of an island, knowing well that their leaders the bigger part of their army was out. She was followed by the Horde forces, which she represented.

Honestly, the only thing that makes one look more like a genocide than the other is that the word "genocide" is used in a novella.