Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Sondrelk]

There really is nothing sexist about it. It's a small flavor thing. It'd have the same impact if it was Illidan, or just a random guy.

None of this overzealous searching for sexism seems in any way grassroots and if I were able to enter an alternate reality portal where this terminally too-online fad of hyper-analyzing everything in order to find some sort of -ist slight to it wasn't present, I would go so far as to believe nobody would bring it up. Would you have?

There is absolutely something sexist about it, the fact that you cannot see it speaks to how deeply ingrained and normalized sexualization has become in society.
This is a tiny turd on the road that is World of Warcraft, and Blizzard has given around kicking them into the ditch.

Should they fix the potholes and ruined bridges before that? Probably, but that would take time and effort whereas doing a quick once over on assets and sexist achievements is easy and fast, much more befitting a minor patch like this.

Also I love the irony in that you are decrying over-analyzing while you yourself is the one that seems hung up on the issue.

If noone had mentioned this was changed I would have assumed it was done to create higher resolution assets. I didn't care to really mention it until I saw people were outraged by it.

Same with removing references to problematic former employees, I didn't really care until players started considering it political correctness gone mad.


If you has not brought it up then no, I would not really have mentioned these paintings at all.

[Yarathir]

There is absolutely something sexist about it, the fact that you cannot see it speaks to how deeply ingrained and normalized sexualization has become in society.

Don't you just love Kafkatraps.

[Sondrelk]

Not trying to play mod here, but isn't there another thread for this stuff? I haven't seen one even made about these changes yet.

There probably is, but I don't want to go there. Too many sweaty gamertypes getting upset and saying Blizzard is shit like always.

I made a vow once to avoid negativity, and forum threads like that is exactly the kind I mean.

- - - Updated - - -

Don't you just love Kafkatraps.

Sure why not. Because everyone knows casual sexism is completely eradicated.

[Makabreska]

The “gutting” already happened in Legion where the high ranking succubi have armor over the stomach.

And let's not forget that moment when they did the same to Sylvi.

- - - Updated - - -

Imagine guys getting mad at a videogame because said videogame becomes a little less sexist. Shame upon him who thinks evil upon it.

Sooooo, should we now go and "fix" all dem renaissance paintings with nude women?

[Sondrelk]

I wonder if 9.2 is going to introduce some kind of Anima and Grateful offerings sink when that releases.
Anima especially is already overabundant in this patch, I have to imagine the deluge will be even worse once we get even further and there are fewer things to buy still.

What would be a fitting animasink reward though I wonder...

[Lady Atia]

You may be on to something with this bard thing. Indeed many items, treasures, activities in basically every zone (don't remember anything from Maldraxxus, but now is this invasion NPC) are instruments or band related.. which is pretty weird if you think about it.

Still I think Tinker is more likely, but why not Bard. Or Bard profession.


...and we have PTR.

I wouldn't mind getting the Covenant races as allied races aswell as Bard as new class as pre-order bonus of 10.0 :P

[Alanar]

Gotta admit; I Forgot Mechagnome existed lol
I kinda enjoyed them, but got put off by the lack of beards and the hairstyles.

If they manage to pull of something cool with KT humans or mechagnomes I think I may acctually ditch going "high elf", so im excited to see where they are heading.

And now you got me thinking about being a skinny KT human survival-hunter

Haha ye understandable, the not so mechagnomes were more of an insult to many fans, but hey maybe hee options could help them.

Yea the skinny model seems to be more popular, I wonder if we will ever see them playable. Kinda weird seeing undead female animations on a a male tho, but I see the appeal!

- - - Updated - - -

I wonder if 9.2 is going to introduce some kind of Anima and Grateful offerings sink when that releases.
Anima especially is already overabundant in this patch, I have to imagine the deluge will be even worse once we get even further and there are fewer things to buy still.

What would be a fitting animasink reward though I wonder...

A guess... probably some recolor mount.

[Lady Atia]

Haha ye understandable, the not so mechagnomes were more of an insult to many fans, but hey maybe hee options could help them.

Yea the skinny model seems to be more popular, I wonder if we will ever see them playable. Kinda weird seeing undead female animations on a a male tho, but I see the appeal!

- - - Updated - - -



A guess... probably some recolor mount.

But wouldn't adding a "skinny" model destroy their original intend of normalizing the current Kul Tirans body forms?

[Alanar]

But wouldn't adding a "skinny" model destroy their original intend of normalizing the current Kul Tirans body forms?

Idk realy.. they were just there on kul tiras. They gained popularity for some reason.

[Makorus]

Man, people must be staring at this one image with the virtual boobas all day, judging by the outrage over it.

But yeah, it's virtue signalling, obviously, even though the vast majority of the reactions to the change are negative.

No, there is no way that Blizz nowadays thinks that putting big boobas everything and have everything wear pretty much nothing is pretty objectifying to women.

[Hugnomo]

The difference is that Argus was a well known place in lore, being the capital of the Draenei homeworld and then the headquarters of the Legion. It had clout enough to carry an entire expansion, so seeing it reduced to mere patch fodder felt quite aggravating. Ditto for e.g. Nazjatar.

But the SL? We barely knew anything about it, other than it being the realm of the dead. But now, we can verifiably state that all of the Azerothian religions are just BS, although WoW being WoW, it probably won't have any consequences in Azeroth whatsoever.

I understand that there are differences, as you have stated. But many of the complaints are regarding it being an "alien, otherworldly, cosmic setting" and wanting to go back to grounded medieval adventures. Argus would have presented that exact same scenario, despite having been widely requested as an expansion. I remember very strong words from many in the community about it being a mere patch, instead of an expansion.

Just saying that these complaints are somewhat incompatible and people will complain regardless, even about things they may have asked for.

- - - Updated - - -

On the topic of the censored paintings. I see many trying to pin criticism on "straight sexist bros". I'm a gay man who has no interest in sexually objectifying women and I think it's kind of ridiculous. It's puritanical, which I absolutely hate. Covering women's bodies as a response to men's sexual harassment is, inadvertently or not, displacing the responsibility of their bad behavior to women. There's nothing wrong with women's bodies. "Modesty" isn't a deterrent to men's predatory behavior. It's pretty reactionary, in my opinion.

[Dracullus]

One thing bother me in this build. They changed wording from "Completing the Shadowlands Campaign" to "Unlocking your third Soulbind on any character allows alternate characters joining that same Covenant to immediately unlock their second and third Soulbind." I hope campaign skip is still available, cause there are other benefits for completing campaign on alt (most important transmog set, now you have to do 12 repeats of campaign to get them all).

[Kiivar86]

I don't know man, it wasn't just ghostly, it was fucking neon with colored mist spraying all around you. It's certainly alot more flashy than the other forms and makes you look like Elune herself gave you a make-over.

The thing that got me about the mage tower appearance for feral druids is that the essentially "equivalent" guardian druid form (similar glow and all) is just one of the regular skins for that artifact.

So, today in the Maw, Winslow Swan the Maldraxxi bard made me realize something... why don't more people expect Bard as a class? They keep adding musical instrument animations over time (I know harp and lute are used this expansion, there's flute animations and also accordion) and it also is a very "grounded" class that can fit in any expansion.

I feel like many don't see the Bard class as all that interesting or worth a complete class (though seeing as Demon Hunters only have two specs, that latter point isn't as important now). Though at least in D&D the Bard class is certainly able to do a fair amount.

[Cosmic Janitor]

The thing that got me about the mage tower appearance for feral druids is that the essentially "equivalent" guardian druid form (similar glow and all) is just one of the regular skins for that artifact.

Yea. guardian had it alot easier to get the pink disco teddy.

- - - Updated - - -

I feel like many don't see the Bard class as all that interesting or worth a complete class (though seeing as Demon Hunters only have two specs, that latter point isn't as important now). Though at least in D&D the Bard class is certainly able to do a fair amount.

While I even like the bard class in FFXIV, the thing is, a D&D bard can do alot more simply by the nature of D&D being a proper RPG and not rpg-ultra-light like MMOs. In MMOs you can only focus on the combat part, which mostly boils down to simpler rogue/archer combat and a bit of magic, in D&D you can do so much with just talking to NPCs.

[Raetary]

So, today in the Maw, Winslow Swan the Maldraxxi bard made me realize something... why don't more people expect Bard as a class? They keep adding musical instrument animations over time (I know harp and lute are used this expansion, there's flute animations and also accordion) and it also is a very "grounded" class that can fit in any expansion.

For one, for some reason people can't fathom the idea that a class doesn't have to fit into classic D&D archetypes and wows Bard concept would just follow the same design philosophies like any other existing class.

And two, warcraft just never introduced its own take on a Bard class concept.
Not even as a joke unit, like the WC3 Brewmaster.
And since every class we have is based on WC3 units (even if just roughly), its very unlikely to happen. (However, with the change in leadership at Blizzard this could change)

[Makabreska]

And since every class we have is based on WC3 units (even if just roughly), its very unlikely to happen. (However, with the change in leadership at Blizzard this could change)

Casual reminder it wasn't WoW leadership that changed. Also, I reject all these claims "it was always like this, so it will always be like this". Blizz can do anything really and bend the lore/story/gameplay accordingly.

[Kiivar86]

Yea. guardian had it alot easier to get the pink disco teddy.

Yeah, as I was leveling a druid alt last expansion, I got excited for a moment when I saw the glowing bear, thinking I must have misunderstood which skin was which for feral. Then I looked. Ah well. That alt's gathering dust anyway, I mainly leveled it to get the heritage armor for Kul Tirans, anyway.

While I even like the bard class in FFXIV, the thing is, a D&D bard can do alot more simply by the nature of D&D being a proper RPG and not rpg-ultra-light like MMOs. In MMOs you can only focus on the combat part, which mostly boils down to simpler rogue/archer combat and a bit of magic, in D&D you can do so much with just talking to NPCs.

That is true. Also I imagine it'd end up a leather class and god knows we don't need another of those too.

But new class wise I"m still a supporter of Timewalkers, ever since they introduced the three spec NPCs with the other Timewalker NPCs at the end of MoP.

[Sondrelk]

Man, people must be staring at this one image with the virtual boobas all day, judging by the outrage over it.

But yeah, it's virtue signalling, obviously, even though the vast majority of the reactions to the change are negative.

No, there is no way that Blizz nowadays thinks that putting big boobas everything and have everything wear pretty much nothing is pretty objectifying to women.

I feel like it only being obvious by way of datamining pointing out every minute change kinda undercuts the virtue signalling angle.

If Blizzard has made posts after post on how they have changed the old paintings because it's objectively wrong to objectify women then that would be one thing. But as it stands most players will only notice a few of the more obvious changes once the new patch begins and the differences become obvious.

Who after all would have really noticed the paintings being changed if it wasn't pointed out? And who would then immediately go to them being changed because of objectifying and not, to pick a relevant topic, it wasn't changed to be reusable in the future without clashing with the higher res stuff.
The bellydancer painting becoming a bowl of fruits is one thing, but I am not confident I would have spotted the changes in the other painting as anything but an HD update.

- - - Updated - - -

For one, for some reason people can't fathom the idea that a class doesn't have to fit into classic D&D archetypes and wows Bard concept would just follow the same design philosophies like any other existing class.

And two, warcraft just never introduced its own take on a Bard class concept.
Not even as a joke unit, like the WC3 Brewmaster.
And since every class we have is based on WC3 units (even if just roughly), its very unlikely to happen. (However, with the change in leadership at Blizzard this could change)

I think the problem with the bard is that either you try to stay true to its roots as a class that buffs others, in which case it clashes with the design philosophy of classes in wow. Or you try to change it to fit, in which case all you are really making is a rogue or hunter that happens to carry an instrument.

Bard isn't even like other proposed classes in that it lacks grounding on WoW. What it lacks is a possible way for the class to work in the framework of WoW without the very fabric of wow combat changing with it. As it stands it can only really be a healer and nothing else.

[Lady Atia]

I feel like it only being obvious by way of datamining pointing out every minute change kinda undercuts the virtue signalling angle.

If Blizzard has made posts after post on how they have changed the old paintings because it's objectively wrong to objectify women then that would be one thing. But as it stands most players will only notice a few of the more obvious changes once the new patch begins and the differences become obvious.

Who after all would have really noticed the paintings being changed if it wasn't pointed out? And who would then immediately go to them being changed because of objectifying and not, to pick a relevant topic, it wasn't changed to be reusable in the future without clashing with the higher res stuff.
The bellydancer painting becoming a bowl of fruits is one thing, but I am not confident I would have spotted the changes in the other painting as anything but an HD update.

- - - Updated - - -



I think the problem with the bard is that either you try to stay true to its roots as a class that buffs others, in which case it clashes with the design philosophy of classes in wow. Or you try to change it to fit, in which case all you are really making is a rogue or hunter that happens to carry an instrument.

Bard isn't even like other proposed classes in that it lacks grounding on WoW. What it lacks is a possible way for the class to work in the framework of WoW without the very fabric of wow combat changing with it. As it stands it can only really be a healer and nothing else.

Or it could be the introducion of the support class? Could also be a natural way to fix toxic "dmg meter fanatics". Don't get me wrong, details is great for guilds/premades, but I always have to cringe when I have to do LFR for transmog and people flaming each other for low dps/hps lmao.

[Hitei]

For one, for some reason people can't fathom the idea that a class doesn't have to fit into classic D&D archetypes and wows Bard concept would just follow the same design philosophies like any other existing class.

And two, warcraft just never introduced its own take on a Bard class concept.
Not even as a joke unit, like the WC3 Brewmaster.
And since every class we have is based on WC3 units (even if just roughly), its very unlikely to happen. (However, with the change in leadership at Blizzard this could change)

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Kod...(Warcraft_III)

I think the problem with the bard is that either you try to stay true to its roots as a class that buffs others, in which case it clashes with the design philosophy of classes in wow. Or you try to change it to fit, in which case all you are really making is a rogue or hunter that happens to carry an instrument.

Bard isn't even like other proposed classes in that it lacks grounding on WoW. What it lacks is a possible way for the class to work in the framework of WoW without the very fabric of wow combat changing with it. As it stands it can only really be a healer and nothing else.

I very strongly disagree. You are falling into the same trap that Arafal mentions above. D&D Bard is a gish support, so it revolves around support and then has some wizard-y bits and some rogue/ranger bits.

There is no reason for a theoretical WoW bard to follow this approach, just like wow priests aren't based around channeled AoE healing. This is actually a narrow-mindedness I see from a huge portion of people talking about bard, even many of the people who come up with "bard" class concepts: they can only view bard as a minstrel carrying a lute and doing buff/debuff magic.

The bard and sound-magic NPCs that already exist in the game typically don't play that support role, nor are they instrument carrying entertainers. They use that sound and music magic for outright offense or regular defense/healing.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Imp...zier_Zor%27lok

Inhale — Imperial Vizier Zor'lok takes a large breath to fill his lungs. Inhale increases the damage of Exhale by 100% for each stack present and lasts until Exhale triggers with 3 or more stacks.

Exhale — Imperial Vizier Zor'lok selects a random player and screams at them, inflicting Physical damage and stunning them for 6 sec. The first player between Imperial Vizier Zor'lok and the initial target suffers additional Physical damage every 0.5 seconds.

Song of the Empress — When Imperial Vizier Zor'lok finishes a transition he will raise his voice in praise to the empress. Failing to engage Imperial Vizier Zor'lok in melee combat will result in him inflicting Physical damage to all players until they die. Engaging Imperial Vizier Zor'lok in melee combat will end this effect.

Attenuation — Imperial Vizier Zor'lok emits a dizzying series of sonic rings that travel outward from him in a spiraling pattern. Sonic rings inflict 138,750 to 161,250 Physical damage to all targets in their path. In 10 and 25 player Heroic Difficulty, Attenuation also sends out Sonic Pulses. Sonic Pulses inflict 277,500 to 322,500 Physical damage to all targets in their path.

Force and Verve — Imperial Vizier Zor'lok shouts with pure volume to inflict 55,200 to 64,800 physical damage to all players every 1 seconds for 10 sec. Players standing in Noise Cancelling zones suffer 60% less damage from this ability.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The...Unending_Voice

Reverberating Refrain — Upon reaching 100 energy, Signe sings of the end for 7 sec, pushing all players away from her location. Upon completion, Signe crescendoes and inflicts 66100 Shadow damage to all players further than 10 yds, causing them to flee in fear for 6 sec.

Song of Dissolution — Signe sings a shredding song that intensifies every 1.5 sec for 6 sec. This effect inflicts 2203 Shadow damage every 1 sec for 5 sec. This effect stacks.

Soulful Blast — Signe blasts her target with dark energy, inflicting 33050 Shadow damage.

There's really zero reason a hypothetical bard class in wow needs to be a hybrid healer or buffer. I'm sure it would have a healing spec, but the other two specs could very easily be typical ranged DPS specs, one focusing on "song" like the above spells minus Attenuation, and the other focusing on raw sound magic, like Attenuation or the abilities of Murmur and Atramedes.

A WoW bard is going to want to play like a wow class, not be a port of existing bard mechanics from another game/tabletop.