Should the horde be made to pay for the crimes of their leaders?

[Eggroll]

Garithos tried to terminate the elf survivors and their king's bloodline. He was followed by the remaining Alliance forces in Lordaeron. So he represented the Alliance.

Sylvanas burnt the population of an island, knowing well that their leaders the bigger part of their army was out. She was followed by the Horde forces, which she represented.

Honestly, the only thing that makes one look more like a genocide than the other is that the word "genocide" is used in a novella.

There is a huge difference:
One of them happened off-screen before WoW even existed, just written lore.
The other one was made to be experienced by the player on both sides. As a night elf fan I'm telling you, experiencing The Burning of Teldrassil scenario was not enjoyable, it was not fun. It was a dreadful. And I regret ever doing it.

And yes, I think there should be repercussions for the Horde. Live. Sylvanas should be executed publicly, with a juicy cinematic indulging in the same kind of cruelty and torture they rubbed into Alliance players faces with Varian and Delaryn. The Horde should be made to rebuild what they have destroyed and to vacate Ashenvale, Darkshore and Feralas completely and unconditionally.

[DatToffer]

There is a huge difference:
One of them happened off-screen before WoW even existed, just written lore.
The other one was made to be experienced by the player on both sides. As a night elf fan I'm telling you, experiencing The Burning of Teldrassil scenario was not enjoyable, it was not fun. It was a dreadful. And I regret ever doing it.

I don't think your emotional vulnerability is relevant to the debate. Reading you, you could almost think the thing was written well enough to actually get people emotionally engaged.

I know that managing to make people feel for fictional characters is supposed to be a good thing. But if they go around asking for the story to write their vengeance, it's no wonder we can't have violence in fictions anymore. You people are crazy.

[Super Dickmann]

There is a huge difference:
One of them happened off-screen before WoW even existed, just written lore.
The other one was made to be experienced by the player on both sides. As a night elf fan I'm telling you, experiencing The Burning of Teldrassil scenario was not enjoyable, it was not fun. It was a dreadful. And I regret ever doing it.

And yes, I think there should be repercussions for the Horde. Live. Sylvanas should be executed publicly, with a juicy cinematic indulging in the same kind of cruelty and torture they rubbed into Alliance players faces with Varian and Delaryn. The Horde should be made to rebuild what they have destroyed and to vacate Ashenvale, Darkshore and Feralas completely and unconditionally.

Delaryn I can somewhat get although she pretty much existed solely to die since Blizzard didn't have the stones to have us kill Shandris or Malfurion, but Varian, really? The dude took down a giant robot singlehanded and died defiantly telling Gul'dan to neck himself. Vol'jin got killed by nameless fodder and Cairne died off-screen in a book.

[Soon-TM]

Garithos tried to terminate the elf survivors and their king's bloodline. He was followed by the remaining Alliance forces in Lordaeron. So he represented the Alliance.

Sylvanas burnt the population of an island, knowing well that their leaders the bigger part of their army was out. She was followed by the Horde forces, which she represented.

Honestly, the only thing that makes one look more like a genocide than the other is that the word "genocide" is used in a novella.

Not to mention that genocides aren't limited to WC1 or WC2, they have also taken place during WoW's lifetime, for example when General Twinbraid wiped out the Stonespire tribe. The guy was never made into a raid boss, was never brought to trial, and his death was completely unrelated to his "deeds" in Kalimdor.

Therefore, Sylv getting dry out of the water would be just par for the course.

[Eggroll]

I don't think your emotional vulnerability is relevant to the debate. Reading you, you could almost think the thing was written well enough to actually get people emotionally engaged.

I know that managing to make people feel for fictional characters is supposed to be a good thing. But if they go around asking for the story to write their vengeance, it's no wonder we can't have violence in fictions anymore. You people are crazy.

Why is it not? Of course it is. Because games with immersive worlds are also about the player experience. Just like when we were sad for Ysera, or Runas the Shamed. This part of the game is all about immersion, empathy. There is nothing wrong with it and it certainly is not crazy. It is ok if only the technical side of the game speaks to you, but not everyone is like this.

Regarding violence in fictions: It might have escaped your attention but WoW is a PG12 rated game. And I think it is fairly reasonable to expect the appropriate content.

If you want more hardcore stuff, go play a PG16 or mature rated game, I believe there's enough of that stuff.

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Not to mention that genocides aren't limited to WC1 or WC2, they have also taken place during WoW's lifetime, for example when General Twinbraid wiped out the Stonespire tribe. The guy was never made into a raid boss, was never brought to trial, and his death was completely unrelated to his "deeds" in Kalimdor.

Therefore, Sylv getting dry out of the water would be just par for the course.

Still a difference: the Stonespire Tribe was never a player faction, unlike the night elves.

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Delaryn I can somewhat get although she pretty much existed solely to die since Blizzard didn't have the stones to have us kill Shandris or Malfurion, but Varian, really? The dude took down a giant robot singlehanded and died defiantly telling Gul'dan to neck himself. Vol'jin got killed by nameless fodder and Cairne died off-screen in a book.

I get what you are saying, nevertheless it was an ugly and painful death he suffered. I don't really care for the heroic part tbh.

[Soon-TM]

@Eggroll it doesn't matter if it was a playable race or not, unless you want to tell me that there are genocides and genocides

[Super Dickmann]

I get what you are saying, nevertheless it was an ugly and painful death he suffered. I don't really care for the heroic part tbh.

The context of the death is as important as anything else. Varian lived a violent life but he did it for his kingdom and for his son and he died against huge odds holding the line for both. It's probably one of the best character-sendoffs the franchise has done, though preferring Horde I'm partial to how both Hellscreams and Ga'nar went out.

it doesn't matter if it was a playable race or not, unless you want to tell me that there are genocides and genocides

I mean that is how WoW works. No one will bellyache about how the Horde put the native quillboar and harpies to death to clear up space for itself. The human and elf kingdoms being built on the land and bones of the Troll Empires is only ever brought up on the forums, despite them being a lot more sophisticated than the aforementioned. The only one to ever equate this even in-story is Baine and as always, his charity resulted in the quillboar poaching the tauren just the same.

For all that the narrative falls over itself at times to cast the Horde as 'evil' for fighting the night elves for the fertile lands it needs to support its expansion and population, the Drustvar narrative casts the conquering Kul Tirans as the good guys while the native Drust are culled to a handful of people and are all chaotic evil with the exception of the handful who are okay with going gentle into that good night.

[DatToffer]

Why is it not? Of course it is. Because games with immersive worlds are also about the player experience. Just like when we were sad for Ysera, or Runas the Shamed. This part of the game is all about immersion, empathy. There is nothing wrong with it and it certainly is not crazy. It is ok if only the technical side of the game speaks to you, but not everyone is like this.

Regarding violence in fictions: It might have escaped your attention but WoW is a PG12 rated game. And I think it is fairly reasonable to expect the appropriate content.

If you want more hardcore stuff, go play a PG16 or mature rated game, I believe there's enough of that stuff.

Violence is pretty tame in WoW, enough for it to be PG12. But you're the one who wants to see a public execution of Sylvanas. And unless this execution gets properly censored, playing out a death penalty on screen is a bit hardcore.

Also, it's okay to feel for the characters suffering, that's the point. But acting on those feelings and claiming the story should be written in a way that suits you is just letting those feelings get ahead of yourself.

And that's the kind of thing that leads to fiction becoming more and more dull, because viewers can't just handle it and take everything personally.

[The Stormbringer]

Too busy fixing paintings nobody ever knew were there to notice blatant cases of sexual assault & rape in lore.

What's this about fixing paintings? Don't tell me, the almost-pinup ones for the Goblin female on a calendar, and maybe of a human female?

EDIT: Ah, the lady with the deep cleavage and belly had it covered up, and the lady in IN-GAME UNDERWEAR lying down was removed. Seriously, WTF? You can take the clothes off of characters in-game already, why is a painting showing something that you can see IN-GAME AT ALL TIMES something that has to be censored?

EDIT2: Oh! And the "cleavage" one? That's the old alpha models. It was an homage to the old human females before they completely redesigned them. For fuck's sake...

[Narwhalosh Whalescream]

Kick out the horde out of the occupied lands and hand it back to the night elves. Keep a permanent occupation force stationed in Orgrimmar coupled with some new ports built nearby, also occupy bladefist bay. Fortify those ports for a fallback for the occupation force if the horde gets uppity in Orgrimmar so that they can ship more supplies and troops to break out and retake Orgrimmar. Think of it like northwatch but better. Also force reparations and prevent the horde from ever industrializing in the form of some treaty, and if they break the treaty just occupy them harder. Dismantle all existing horde industry and ship it to alliance allies that have need of them. Liberate goblin and iron horde blueprints and ideas, see if they might be useful. Confiscate the horde navies, sink them or give em to someone. Mandatory inspection of horde merchant shipping to prevent smuggling of weapons.

Rebuild Theramore. Establish railroad link with it and northwatch and the new fortified ports aaand night elven lands. Also turn Bilgewater harbour into a alliance military base, it's pretty easy to defend. Destroy the goblin gun there with gnomish explosives for maximum spite.

Help tauren with quillboar btw.

Or just demolish Orgrimmar and settle the orcs somewhere else like Northrend. Howling Fjord would fit them well now that the vrykul are defeated. Permanent peace achieved.



The circles are the alliance strongholds and areas to defend and the dotted lines are the railways.

[mickybrighteyes]

There is a huge difference:
One of them happened off-screen before WoW even existed, just written lore.

Not sure I would count a main story campaign of a Warcraft game as "off screen"

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Kick out the horde out of the occupied lands and hand it back to the night elves. Keep a permanent occupation force stationed in Orgrimmar coupled with some new ports built nearby, also occupy bladefist bay. Fortify those ports for a fallback for the occupation force if the horde gets uppity in Orgrimmar so that they can ship more supplies and troops to break out and retake Orgrimmar. Think of it like northwatch but better. Also force reparations and prevent the horde from ever industrializing in the form of some treaty, and if they break the treaty just occupy them harder. Dismantle all existing horde industry and ship it to alliance allies that have need of them. Liberate goblin and iron horde blueprints and ideas, see if they might be useful. Confiscate the horde navies, sink them or give em to someone. Mandatory inspection of horde merchant shipping to prevent smuggling of weapons.

replacing one group of invaders and making it colonies for another outside force isn't exactly a good idea. It just makes the boys in blue the exact same as what we're calling the the orcs out for.

Also forcibly restricting a nation's advancement is a very grey area no matter how 'good' you envision the ones enforcing the subjugation

[Narwhalosh Whalescream]

Not sure I would count a main story campaign of a Warcraft game as "off screen"

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replacing one group of invaders and making it colonies for another outside force isn't exactly a good idea. It just makes the boys in blue the exact same as what we're calling the the orcs out for.

Also forcibly restricting a nation's advancement is a very grey area no matter how 'good' you envision the ones enforcing the subjugation

Sounds the morally grey we needed in BFA

[Feanoro]

why will i address your bias and your exaggeration? that is something you have to address yourself.

Thank you for conceding that you have no argument.

[mickybrighteyes]

Sounds the morally grey we needed in BFA

I think that's less "grey" and more straight up villainous tyranny. You can't be anywhere near morally good when you're taking over a nation out of vengeance.

edit:

IMO this concept is about as morally grey as torching teldrassil...

[Feanoro]

The whole thing was a farce, he was supposed to have understood the lessons of what he and the rest of the Old Horde did and to have become the atoner, only for him to willingly agree with and follow Sylvanas and fail to realize that she was an evil bitch no better than Gul'dan, Blackhand and Garrosh despite it being blablantly obvious until the burning of Teldrassil and then suddenly to onlh remember his honor and morals here.

Yep, he was saying as much all the way back in Wrath when he was threatening Garrosh about following the old path. Remember though, current writers find existing stories "constraining", so they ignored all that.

Garithos tried to terminate the elf survivors and their king's bloodline. He was followed by the remaining Alliance forces in Lordaeron. So he represented the Alliance.

Canonically, while he led the remnants of Lordaeron and received some aid from other Alliance members, they didn't know what he was doing. It was condemned once they did. Effectively then, he acted on his own.

Sylvanas burnt the population of an island, knowing well that their leaders the bigger part of their army was out. She was followed by the Horde forces, which she represented.

The Lich Queen was Warchief of the Horde, meaning her orders are Horde policy. Garithos and Sylvie are not equivalent.

[Syegfryed]

let me guess, u also love to 'ignore' that alliance favorite hobby is to genocide weaker races like belf (twice), goblins of kezan, forsaken, darkspear trolls? heck without alliance trying to kill anything on sight, current horde won't never been founded in first place, only taurens didn't get targeted by alliance for the horrible crime of dare just exist, and that's probably because alliance didn't know about Kalimdor

Dwarves did exterminated an entire tauren tribe to steal their lands and dig for titan artifacts, those things they ignore.

People like to fill their mouths to talk about the "genocide of teldrassil" but they do forget the alliance commit and attempt a couple of genocide themselves

[Ardenaso]

only taurens didn't get targeted by alliance for the horrible crime of dare just exist, and that's probably because alliance didn't know about Kalimdor

one of the very first war crimes of the Grand Alliance is the Stonespire genocide

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The whole thing was a farce, he was supposed to have understood the lessons of what he and the rest of the Old Horde did and to have become the atoner, only for him to willingly agree with and follow Sylvanas and fail to realize that she was an evil bitch no better than Gul'dan, Blackhand and Garrosh despite it being blablantly obvious until the burning of Teldrassil and then suddenly to onlh remember his honor and morals here.

let's not forget Saurfang also gave the green light to massacre Astranaar and Silverwing Refuge, which was mostly defenseless citizens

[Syegfryed]

Kick out the horde out of the occupied lands and hand it back to the night elves. Keep a permanent occupation force stationed in Orgrimmar coupled with some new ports built nearby, also occupy bladefist bay. Fortify those ports for a fallback for the occupation force if the horde gets uppity in Orgrimmar so that they can ship more supplies and troops to break out and retake Orgrimmar. Think of it like northwatch but better. Also force reparations and prevent the horde from ever industrializing in the form of some treaty, and if they break the treaty just occupy them harder. Dismantle all existing horde industry and ship it to alliance allies that have need of them. Liberate goblin and iron horde blueprints and ideas, see if they might be useful. Confiscate the horde navies, sink them or give em to someone. Mandatory inspection of horde merchant shipping to prevent smuggling of weapons.

Rebuild Theramore. Establish railroad link with it and northwatch and the new fortified ports aaand night elven lands. Also turn Bilgewater harbour into a alliance military base, it's pretty easy to defend. Destroy the goblin gun there with gnomish explosives for maximum spite.

Help tauren with quillboar btw.

Or just demolish Orgrimmar and settle the orcs somewhere else like Northrend. Howling Fjord would fit them well now that the vrykul are defeated. Permanent peace achieved.

The circles are the alliance strongholds and areas to defend and the dotted lines are the railways.

i don't think you understand the point of the topic, this is not about a delusional scenario where the alliance had the manpower to even atempt something like that.

[Blackmist]

Yes, they should be punished by forcing them to queue with the Alliance.

[mickybrighteyes]

Dwarves did exterminated an entire tauren tribe to steal their lands and dig for titan artifacts, those things they ignore.

People like to fill their mouths to talk about the "genocide of teldrassil" but they do forget the alliance commit and attempt a couple of genocide themselves

Seems that got back tracked. The tribe still runs around apparently (cause Stonespires aren't totally gone of limited to Gann) but yeah that whole settlement got wiped for no real reason beyond greed.

It is true though, that people act like Genocide was exclusive to a couple events and forget it is a rather common story feature that forced some factions to work together.

I know I've said more than once... the only thing Unique about 'teldrassil' in this case is the scale and it's place in the storyline. It wasn't buried in some side quests in a leveling zone or as the starting zone storyline... it was the headline of a new expansion

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Yes, they should be punished by forcing them to queue with the Alliance.

that'd actually lead to better queue times though... wouldn't it? more matches faster? Maybe you mean Queue AS alliance instead of mixing?

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i don't think you understand the point of the topic, this is not about a delusional scenario where the alliance had the manpower to even atempt something like that.

I know you saw BFA. Logistics doesn't matter here. The plot will asspull resources and manpower like insane difficulty RTS AI. We are slaves to teh whims of whatever author slaps into being. Whether it's piss poor intel gathering by the premier intelligence organization in the IP or diplomats giving in to the basic DND murder hobo strategy as the only way to interact with other entities.

If the story demands a sky full of forces that outnumber the stars.... then by Thrall's Balls we'll have airships blot out the SUN!