Should the horde be made to pay for the crimes of their leaders?

[Super Dickmann]

It's not just Alliance races being handicapped. In-game you see that the defenders of Orgrimmar are limited to Forsaken, Mag'har Orcs and some Goblins. Literally every other Horde race, including the rest of the Goblins, are attacking the city, sans the Zandalari and Vulpera if memory serves. Yet somehow those two and a half races can match the entire Alliance and most of the Horde? Why, are the Forsaken that powerful, despite losing the vast majority of their holdings and the battle of Darkshore? Why doesn't the narrative ever bring that up again if they are? The entire thing about the anti-Sylvanas squad barely hanging in there seems completely artificial for the sake of arbitrarily creating tension.

Seems to me they could just have easily have said that Sylvanas + the walls of Orgrimmar is a force multiplier powerful enough that an assault would leave them too bloodied to face N'zoth. It makes a lot more sense and achieves the same result. The basis for the Alliance leaving the Horde alone again is that they've seen the light of Saint Anduin anyway, not any practical ground.

This is mostly just gameplay. The narrative makes clear that the majority of the player races stuck with Sylvanas, with Saurfang's fireplace gathering being described as being 'so few' whereas Sylvanas is described as growing in power every day. Bob mentions that his people would sooner support her than him, possibly because he sent the Horde PC to kill guys who survived the Purge of Dalaran on behalf of Baine. In the same scenario you see orcs willing to kill Green Jesus. Throughout the story you see no large-scale resistance to Sylvanas like you do to Garrosh. The narrative both shows and tells you repeatedly that her approval rating is far higher than Sadfang's. As for the Forsaken, they have all the ones the Scourge didn't raise to work with in terms of Lordaeron's dead population and that crappy tie-in book tells us Sylvanas also has a policy of raising her troops when fallen. If any race should increase instead of sink in population, the dwarves are in the first post since they united all the clans with no real losses to themselves and second should be the Forsaken since they're not bound by birth rate and grow with victories without being too hindered by defeat.

Would it have made more sense if they were fewer than they were? Sure, given that one patch ago the Alliance was apparently weeks from victory. But that's not the story as written. After all just one patch before that Anduin was so strapped for troops that he was calling up farmers and he was sure he couldn't win without Sadfang's help.

@Feanoro

@Val the Moofia Boss' analysis is mostly bs. It shills for things like Stormwind's industrial potential, this being the place that's received the largest nonsensical power boost, ahead of even the orcs. In the First War the Horde kill most of the population that couldn't hide in the sewers or escaped on a few boats, with those survivors migrating to Lordaeron which was then killed by the Scourge/got mass raised by the Forsaken. Per Chronicle they were also previously almost overcome by gnolls, a meme race, and Gurubashi remnants, needing Medivh to save them, this being the equivalent of the kind of headhunters that run into the Iron Juggernaut's sawblades in SoO. It also wanks for the spaceships who's finest examples like the Xenedar gets oneshot by a nameless demon in its very first appearance and who aren't even produced by the draenei but are charity by the naaru. This is a race that was at serious risk of destruction by a fraction of Kael'thas' forces, who were themselves a fraction of the blood elves, who are themselves a mere percentage of the pre-Third War high elves.

Germany’s idea may not have been to taunt others into the war other wise was pretty much the same as what the horde was trying. They wanted to conquer the land for themselves exterminate the undesirables and enslave every one else, the only real difference is that in the hordes case they skipped any enslavement and just made every one an undesirable as well as skipping the systematic camp part of wiping them out.

The nuking on the other hand just has kill people and get some response as a parallel.

These are pretty relevant parts to skip, since without the racial animus or any policy towards an occupied population (as there is no such population) the parallels are pretty poor. The Garrosh parallels were also pretty poor, but they were also intended and overt, whereas with Sylvanas the game goes at great points to emphasize how universalist her support is. The destruction of citizenry or the looting of conquered territory is a tactic practiced endlessly in history and unlike Garrosh having a clear emphasis on benefitting his race, Sylvanas doesn't even have that figleaf. I suppose her goons do say 'Victory for Sylvanas', so there's that.

That said, the Night Elves, if in a superior position, taking the Soviet Union approaching to policing occupied Horde territory would've made sense if they had the tools/manpower to pull it off.

[Jastall]

This is mostly just gameplay. The narrative makes clear that the majority of the player races stuck with Sylvanas, with Saurfang's fireplace gathering being described as being 'so few' whereas Sylvanas is described as growing in power every day. Bob mentions that his people would sooner support her than him, possibly because he sent the Horde PC to kill guys who survived the Purge of Dalaran on behalf of Baine. In the same scenario you see orcs willing to kill Green Jesus. Throughout the story you see no large-scale resistance to Sylvanas like you do to Garrosh. The narrative both shows and tells you repeatedly that her approval rating is far higher than Sadfang's. As for the Forsaken, they have all the ones the Scourge didn't raise to work with in terms of Lordaeron's dead population and that crappy tie-in book tells us Sylvanas also has a policy of raising her troops when fallen. If any race should increase instead of sink in population, the dwarves are in the first post since they united all the clans with no real losses to themselves and second should be the Forsaken since they're not bound by birth rate and grow with victories without being too hindered by defeat.

Would it have made more sense if they were fewer than they were? Sure, given that one patch ago the Alliance was apparently weeks from victory. But that's not the story as written. After all just one patch before that Anduin was so strapped for troops that he was calling up farmers and he was sure he couldn't win without Sadfang's help.

@Feanoro

@Val the Moofia Boss' analysis is mostly bs. It shills for things like Stormwind's industrial potential, this being the place that's received the largest nonsensical power boost, ahead of even the orcs. In the First War the Horde kill most of the population that couldn't hide in the sewers or escaped on a few boats, with those survivors migrating to Lordaeron which was then killed by the Scourge/got mass raised by the Forsaken. Per Chronicle they were also previously almost overcome by gnolls, a meme race, and Gurubashi remnants, needing Medivh to save them, this being the equivalent of the kind of headhunters that run into the Iron Juggernaut's sawblades in SoO. It also wanks for the spaceships who's finest examples like the Xenedar gets oneshot by a nameless demon in its very first appearance and who aren't even produced by the draenei but are charity by the naaru. This is a race that was at serious risk of destruction by a fraction of Kael'thas' forces, who were themselves a fraction of the blood elves, who are themselves a mere percentage of the pre-Third War high elves.

Telling us something and then showing the opposite does not a good and rational narrative make. If there were enough BEs and green Orcs supporting Sylvanas, they should have showed up, the only time we see them is when like 4 Sunreavers get angry at Lor'themar and then killed.

How were the loyalists even growing in power anyway? The Horde had lost the Zandalari fleet, lost at Arathi, lost in Darkshore, everything points to the war going badly for them including dialog saying a united Horde is weeks away from defeat, but when convenient to the plot all of a sudden the loyalists are on the rise? The Forsaken are down to like 3 Val'kyr and quite the shortage of victorious battlefields to draw bodies from in the first place, on top of having lost access to their traditional mass graves and Blight production centers.

The entire war makes no sense whatsoever and both the balance of power and the loyalties of races and characters involved shift at the whims of the narrative. Trying to make in-universe sense of it is pointless when the people writing it aren't.

[Super Dickmann]

Telling us something and then showing the opposite does not a good and rational narrative make. If there were enough BEs and green Orcs supporting Sylvanas, they should have showed up, the only time we see them is when like 4 Sunreavers get angry at Lor'themar and then killed.

How were the loyalists even growing in power anyway? The Horde had lost the Zandalari fleet, lost at Arathi, lost in Darkshore, everything points to the war going badly for them including dialog saying a united Horde is weeks away from defeat, but when convenient to the plot all of a sudden the loyalists are on the rise? The Forsaken are down to like 3 Val'kyr and quite the shortage of victorious battlefields to draw bodies from in the first place, on top of having lost access to their traditional mass graves and Blight production centers.

The entire war makes no sense whatsoever and both the balance of power and the loyalties of races and characters involved shift at the whims of the narrative. Trying to make in-universe sense of it is pointless when the people writing it aren't.

They do show us. Sylvanas' on the ground opposition consists of the God of War meme character for the entirety of the game up until 8.2.5 and the same court of eunuchs that is the non-Mag'har, non-Forsaken leadership from back in Mists, except this time acknowledging their own unpopularity in dialogue. The vast majority of the Horde, from Rokhan to the guys going on a killing spree in Stormsong support her policy. When Sadfang shouted out to the catapulteers to not do it, they ignored him and burned the tree. We're never shown grassroots support for Sadfang at any stage and we're then told that he has no grassroots support through Bob mentioning the loyalty of the people being with Sylvanas and through the 8.2.5 cutscenes. The Orgrimmar citizenry, orcs, trolls and all toss rotten fruit at Eitrigg while he's paraded through the streets and tauren are involved in arresting Baine. They then immediately change their mind at the end of 8.2.5 because she called them some mean names.

The Alliance was on the verge of winning after Dazar'alor because they had naval supremacy. They then somehow committed their entire fleet to chasing some diversionary force instead of pursuing victory and this dunking is so total that they then begin losing hard. A patch later, the Horde then got informed they lost the Warfront conflicts off-screen, conflicts that had both the orcs and Stormwind operating in Stromgarde apropo of nothing.

I concur entirely that the war makes no sense. It's predicated on the Alliance teleporting to Lordaeron City without the Horde offering any resistance. Where I disagree is the idea that somehow it's Sadfang and the Alliance who were disadvantaged through these handicaps and not the plot shifting widely depending on the needs of a particular setpiece.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

These are pretty relevant parts to skip, since without the racial animus or any policy towards an occupied population (as there is no such population) the parallels are pretty poor.

that’s the thing though those parts are only skipped because the plan changed last second. With the original plan there were/would have been policy’s for occupying the population and if bfa is any thing to go off of enslaving them would have been part of the policy’s. Even the removal of undesirables was likely part of the first plan as Nathanos says he has a list of people to gather and we see racial animus was there to as seen in the war of thorns.

The hordes plans leading up to the burning are incredibly close to Germany’s with the main difference being that they were likely going to wipe out a lower % of the population so they could be a more attractive hostage to keep the alliance at bay but instead they said screw it and skipped all the steps and went straight to wiping them out.

[Jastall]

They do show us. Sylvanas' on the ground opposition consists of the God of War meme character for the entirety of the game up until 8.2.5 and the same court of eunuchs that is the non-Mag'har, non-Forsaken leadership from back in Mists, except this time acknowledging their own unpopularity in dialogue. The vast majority of the Horde, from Rokhan to the guys going on a killing spree in Stormsong support her policy. When Sadfang shouted out to the catapulteers to not do it, they ignored him and burned the tree. We're never shown grassroots support for Sadfang at any stage and we're then told that he has no grassroots support through Bob mentioning the loyalty of the people being with Sylvanas and through the 8.2.5 cutscenes. The Orgrimmar citizenry, orcs, trolls and all toss rotten fruit at Eitrigg while he's paraded through the streets and tauren are involved in arresting Baine. They then immediately change their mind at the end of 8.2.5 because she called them some mean names.

The Horde then got informed they lost said conflicts off-screen, conflicts that had both the orcs and Stormwind operating in Stromgarde apropo of nothing.

I concur entirely that the war makes no sense. It's predicated on the Alliance teleporting to Lordaeron City without the Horde offering any resistance. Where I disagree is the idea that somehow it's Sadfang and the Alliance who were disadvantaged through these handicaps and not the plot shifting widely depending on the needs of a particular setpiece.

Yes? Your last paragraph is what I meant. The fortunes of the war change based on what they think makes a better story at the time, is all. In the end it favors the loyalists because they're everyone's bad guys now and have to represent a threat, before that the Alliance went from having to use conscript to being able to throw away an army to secure victory in Zandalar, one that they then refuse to capitalize upon.

Ugh, all this reminds me too much of BFA and I'm done. Dumb as the main story is in Shadowlands it's still not half as terrible as that shit expansion.

[Super Dickmann]

that’s the thing though those parts are only skipped because the plan changed last second. With the original plan there were/would have been policy’s for occupying the population and if bfa is any thing to go off of enslaving them would have been part of the policy’s. Even the removal of undesirables was likely part of the first plan as Nathanos says he has a list of people to gather and we see racial animus was there to as seen in the war of thorns.

There's no ideology deeming night elves a lesser race and no internal racial hierarchy to the Horde since Sylvanas' public approach was that everyone would get the spoils of victory by taking over whichever land they were after and her private policy was to feed all involved to Satan. They would've been put to labour, but subjugating an occupied population is as old as time. There's no plan to systematically eliminate night elves and if the entire place was run by humans but were geographically situated the same the actions of the Horde would not change. Further, if we take the stated plan at face value, it was based on holding the area as a negotiating chip, implying they'd be cut loose while the Horde divided the relevant Alliance factions among themselves and, also in said plan, would essentially pick them off one by one and make them tributary states. Destroying an occupied city isn't really similar to systematic genocide, since there's no continued action or policy in that regard.

To note, I don't think the fact that it isn't relatable to Germany in WWII has much relevance to its moral character or lack thereof, since killing a ton of innocent people can be just as reprehensible without it being predicated on racial grounds. WWII parallels aren't really needed to morally condemn any kind of behaviour.

@Jastall

The Alliance is on its last legs conscripting recruits when Anduin has to need Sadfang to wage the war. The Alliance is exponentially stronger post-Dazar'alor when it needs to be to make Anduin sending a suicide army and giving up on winning the war a-okay. The Alliance and the rebels combined are exponentially weaker than Sylvanas when she needs to be on the verge of victory to be a raid boss in Shadowlands.

Just awful, isn't it? I genuinely can't parse how people can with a straight face say that SL is worse. It's not very good, but pretty much all of its worst points are either just being kind of boring or are directly inherited from BFA's terrible decision-making.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

There's no ideology deeming night elves a lesser race and no internal racial hierarchy to the Horde since Sylvanas' public approach was that everyone would get the spoils of victory by taking over whichever land they were after and her private policy was to feed all involved to Satan. They would've been put to labour, but subjugating an occupied population is as old as time. There's no plan to systematically eliminate night elves and if the entire place was run by humans but were geographically situated the same the actions of the Horde would not change. Further, if we take the stated plan at face value, it was based on holding the area as a negotiating chip, implying they'd be cut loose while the Horde divided the relevant Alliance factions among themselves and, also in said plan, would essentially pick them off one by one and make them tributary states. Destroying an occupied city isn't really similar to systematic genocide, since there's no continued action or policy in that regard.

To note, I don't think the fact that it isn't relatable to Germany in WWII has much relevance to its moral character or lack thereof, since killing a ton of innocent people can be just as reprehensible without it being predicated on racial grounds. WWII parallels aren't really needed to morally condemn any kind of behaviour.

The horde might have not singled out a part of the night elfs before invading for said elimination but by the end of things they had effectively marked all of them for it.

Going in there plans were the same as Germany in Poland leaving only the high % of pre determined elimination and coming out there planes were the same leaving out only the enslaved population and skipping to the end of the elimination.

As I said before it’s not exactly the same but it’s as close as we’re ever going to get in wow.

[Mehrunes]

Reparations would be quite pointless. A single Alliance kingdom such as Ironforge has more wealth and industry than the entire Horde combined. The Alliance is made up of multiple such kingdoms. There is nothing the Horde could do to make a "meaingful" contribution to the Alliance. Even becoming slaves to the Alliance would be pointless, as the Horde only consists of a few thousand refugees, while the Alliance has a population of hundreds of thousands to millions of people. The physical strength of the Orcs, Tauren, Trolls, Ogres, Hobgoblins, etc, is meaningless because the Alliance already has heavy machinery and golems to do the heavy lifting.

Can you stop peddling this BS? You're pulling those numbers out of the nether. Not only does Blizzard not provide hard numbers, but your nonsensical idea that the Horde consists of "a few thousands of refugees" gets completely shat on even by the hints of the population levels that we do have. On multiple occasions leading to BfA various characters mentioned how the incoming conflict would lead to hundreds of thousands of casualties. Either you're blatantly wrong as per usual, or Horde races are much more deadly than you're giving them credit, consequently making the numbers issues moot. In the same vein, the Orcs in internment camps alone were numerous (or deadly) enough that Blackmoore planned to take control of the Alliance with them. He even succeeded in the AU where he stopped drinking. And that was when the Alliance still had the Lordaeron powerhouse.

The same thing goes for your wealth. And the one about industry is a flat out lie, as there are multiple industrious Horde races. To the point that Goblins have created transportable towns.

Good meme

Given how Taurajo is the Sylvanas of places in that it's almost always brought up by Alliance posters rather than Horde ones, it's a rather terrible one. And in typical Alliance fashion it pretends that Taurajo is the only Alliance wrongdoing, when it's not even remotely the case.

Ugh. Don't get me started on the "ackshually, elves are descended from trolls!" retcon. Night Elves were the first race on Azeroth.

You not liking a retcon doesn't make it not a retcon. Night Elves being descendants of Trolls is canon.

The horde might have not singled out a part of the night elfs before invading for said elimination but by the end of things they had effectively marked all of them for it.

Going in there plans were the same as Germany in Poland leaving only the high % of pre determined elimination and coming out there planes were the same leaving out only the enslaved population and skipping to the end of the elimination.

As I said before it’s not exactly the same but it’s as close as we’re ever going to get in wow.

Except the Horde wasn't there to create Lebensraum for themselves. Your point rests heavily on what their plans were prior to Saurfang betraying the Horde by sparing Malfurion despite direct orders to kill him and forcing Sylvanas to shift the goal. And what you forgot to mention is that their initial goal was to hold the Night Elves hostage, so that the Alliance would collapse by the Horde forcing individual races into separate peace deals, defeating the very concept of the Alliance. And eliminating people is kinda mutually exclusive with using them as hostages.

You're also still deliberately ignoring the part about lesser races despite @Super Dickmann reiterating it multiple times. Which is the core fucking aspect of Nazi ideology and the war crimes the committed because of it. They went to Poland to wipe out the Poles because they viewed the Slavs as subhumans that didn't deserve to exist. This entire motivation is what led to the subdividing mass murder further and creating genocide as a separate crime, because of how abhorrent the allies viewed the idea of killing people over something they were just because of the randomness of birth, like nationality (with Super Dickmann's post neatly explaining the difference between mass murder and genocide as a side effect). Take that out and you're effectively whitewashing the Third Reich.

[Wilian]

Simply put, much of the problems in the WoW lore can be directly attributed to horde leaders who have done horrible things. Should the horde be made to pay for those crimes in some way?

Also, would you support a fifth Alliance / horde war (in game or in books) where the Alliance actually wins ground and has objective victories for once?

Leaders are nothing without those enacting the crimes.

[Magical Mudcrab]

I would not support any further wars between the Horde and Alliance. It's overdone and stupid at this point. Give us some actual, meaningful peace for once.

Hard to have peace when the Horde has started multiple genocidal (albeit, for contrived reasons) campaigns.

[Mehrunes]

In the Before the Storm novel, the war is predicated upon Sylvanas deluding herself into thinking that the big scary Alliance is - for some reason - going to come after the Horde. Since the Alliance is way stronger, the Horde would lose in such a war. Therefore, she needs to strike first. Her plan was to try to capture and occupy Teldrassil and use it as a bargaining chip with the Alliance, thinking the Anduin would play along. Ofcourse, right there you have several different contradictions in her line of thinking (for what reason would the Alliance try to destroy the Horde, especially when it is lead by Anduin, who Sylvanas believes is passive enough to just go along with her scheme?). But Sylvanas' motivations were then immediately retconned a year later, so who knows.

Not only are you misrepresenting Sylvanas' reasoning, ignoring the fact that she clearly addressed the points you call "contradictions" and merrily throwing your baseless claims about faction strength, but you even got the source wrong and you're talking about the events of A Good War instead. Quality post. Top notch lore knowledge.

[Kalocy Jim]

Leaders are nothing without those enacting the crimes.

Which is why I think the horde faction as a whole should pay for what they did. They went along with their leaders. It was only at a point with Alliance intervention that they agreed that some of their deeds were not honorable, hence you got Seige of Orgrimmar, and Shards of Domination.

Lets not forget, even horde players IN GAME got to choose to follow Sylvanas, and regard her as their true leader.

Maybe in game the horde could help with the construction of Alliance strongholds, kind of like forced labor as reparations. I don't know, I think it would be cool to see Alliance taskmasters overseeing orcs rebuilding Alliance bases / locations / building new ones for us.

[Crazozourus]

Can you stop peddling this BS? You're pulling those numbers out of the nether. Not only does Blizzard not provide hard numbers, but your nonsensical idea that the Horde consists of "a few thousands of refugees" gets completely shat on even by the hints of the population levels that we do have. On multiple occasions leading to BfA various characters mentioned how the incoming conflict would lead to hundreds of thousands of casualties. Either you're blatantly wrong as per usual, or Horde races are much more deadly than you're giving them credit, consequently making the numbers issues moot. In the same vein, the Orcs in internment camps alone were numerous (or deadly) enough that Blackmoore planned to take control of the Alliance with them. He even succeeded in the AU where he stopped drinking. And that was when the Alliance still had the Lordaeron powerhouse.

The same thing goes for your wealth. And the one about industry is a flat out lie, as there are multiple industrious Horde races. To the point that Goblins have created transportable towns.

It doesn't make sense what Val wrote. It would mean that a rag tag of races almost brought a mighty Alliance to it's knees. That's killing his argument about Alliance not needing anything from the Horde as Horde warriors would be practically the best on the planet. Jokes aside that's of course writers fault, it was never shown how the Horde grew and evolved in to the military and industrial power because if they didn't than those few thousands must be bunch of badasses.

[Mehrunes]

Sylvanas had already provoked conflict between the Horde and the Alliance in Legion by not even trying to contact them to explain what happened at the Broken Shore and she already knew she had a bad reputation and how that would have been perceived. And then she immediately plunges into Stormheim and then begins butchering her way through the country trying to find Valkyr to enslave, confirming everything the Alliance believed her to be. A conquering warmonger. No one should have a surprise Pikachu face when the Alliance treats her forces as conquering warmongers.

And yet more BS. First of all, you're trying to pin the responsibility of the Alliance's BS reaction on Sylvanas because she didn't spell out to them they jumped to conclusions. Sorry, but the Alliance bears responsibility for what it's doing. Especially since it's not like they tried any diplomatic channels either. Secondly, your characterization of Stormheim is a lie. The Horde wasn't butchering anyone in Stormheim for the sake of Sylvanas' personal goal, let alone conquering. On top of that Sylvanas flat out left the majority of the forces at the player's disposal for the sake of obtaining the Aegis and only took one ship with her. And then killed or conquered absolutely squat. On top of that the Alliance knew nothing of her goals when they attacked. Actually, they haven't even set a foot on the land yet when the Alliance struck.

[Super Dickmann]

The horde might have not singled out a part of the night elfs before invading for said elimination but by the end of things they had effectively marked all of them for it.

Going in there plans were the same as Germany in Poland leaving only the high % of pre determined elimination and coming out there planes were the same leaving out only the enslaved population and skipping to the end of the elimination.

As I said before it’s not exactly the same but it’s as close as we’re ever going to get in wow.

WoW has failed to produce even a single viable WWII parallel in terms of state action. They tried in Mists as well regarding Garrosh but that fell apart despite Garrosh actually having a race-based ideology. With Sylvanas the resemblance to WWII Germany isn't even cosmetic, there's genuinely almost nothing there - no racial ideology, no treatment of internal elements on the basis of race, no overriding set of values or tradition as her Horde is an alliance of convenience for mutual benefit and not even an occupational policy that's similar. The only relevant aspects I can think of are a cult of personality and a catchphrase involving victory for the person in charge, but even that isn't exactly unique.

In any case it's mostly a handy little timewaster, since it's not necessary in order to debate the morality of the war.

@Mehrunes

I've conceded on the genocide point before to not bog down topics with side nonsense as it's almost invariably a rabbit hole going nowhere, but I am shifting on the topic the more I actually bother to engage with it.

[Mehrunes]

Do you know what the word genocide actually means, or are you just throwing it around in a bad attempt to defend a faction you play? Alliance has never attempted to genocide the blood elves as people in these forums frequently claim, this was done specifically by the remaining army of Lordaeron led by Garithos who was racist and acted on his own, not representing the Alliance. Meanwhile you have the god damn warchief of the Horde herself ordering the death of an entire race and somehow you try to equate this to humans fighting wars over territory and land. They are not the same thing.

Garithos was acting on his own so hard he had support and reinforcements from all Alliance nations and he set up the execution of the Blood Elven army in Dalaran, with the assent from the Kirin Tor.

[Feanoro]

Which is why I think the horde faction as a whole should pay for what they did. They went along with their leaders. It was only at a point with Alliance intervention that they agreed that some of their deeds were not honorable, hence you got Seige of Orgrimmar, and Shards of Domination.

Lets not forget, even horde players IN GAME got to choose to follow Sylvanas, and regard her as their true leader.

Maybe in game the horde could help with the construction of Alliance strongholds, kind of like forced labor as reparations. I don't know, I think it would be cool to see Alliance taskmasters overseeing orcs rebuilding Alliance bases / locations / building new ones for us.

Sorry, the Horde's Ministry of Propaganda representatives have arrived, don't expect any constructive discussion from here out, just the same old "NUH UH HORDE NEVER DID ANYTHING WRONG".

[Sagenod]

Simply put, much of the problems in the WoW lore can be directly attributed to horde leaders who have done horrible things. Should the horde be made to pay for those crimes in some way?

Also, would you support a fifth Alliance / horde war (in game or in books) where the Alliance actually wins ground and has objective victories for once?

Aside from literally paying reparations for Alliance damages and lives lost, no they should not be punished. The German people weren't (directly, officially and/or appropriately) punished by the rest of Europe after WW2. Should they have been?

[Mehrunes]

Canonically, while he led the remnants of Lordaeron and received some aid from other Alliance members, they didn't know what he was doing. It was condemned once they did. Effectively then, he acted on his own.

The Lich Queen was Warchief of the Horde, meaning her orders are Horde policy. Garithos and Sylvie are not equivalent.

Except Garithos was condemned not only after the fact but after his death. And since condemnations don't travel through time (yes, even if that'd be convenient to Alliance), he most certainly was acting in the name of the Alliance and not just on his own. He was its goddamn highest ranked commander at the time. Also, the leadership of Dalaran knew about what he was doing even at the time, because he set up shop on their turf. They didn't say a word at the time.

[Soon-TM]

Leaders are nothing without those enacting the crimes.

And this "collective guilt" mindset was what paved the way for Hitler & co. when it was applied to post WWI Germany. Which in turn was the reason for it to be promptly phased out at the end of WWII.