You decide: New class, Class skins, 4th specs, or New combos

[Triceron]

How would echo classes work with existing content? (and this question applies to class skins while we're at it I think)

For example: I create my brand new Dark Ranger echo class, I select Legion as my leveling experience; which class order hall story do I experience? Is it omitted entirely?

Good questions!

For the Dark Ranger specifically, it's actually lore-tied to Unseen Path, so it's possible to apply the Hunter's quests to the Dark Ranger if it makes sense. If it doesn't, I'd omit it completely, and regard Dark Rangers as simply not having it at all. I admit not the best solution, but neither is having Artifacts imbedded into the questing process with no more Artifact Power to build upon. I played through Legion after BFA already came out, and yes it was a sucky experience, but it was also stupidly fast and I practically didn't stay in the Order Hall much at all to reach max level. But that's just me, because I prefer to level up through Dungeons rather than Quests.

I wouldn't advocate creating new retroactive content. I mean, lore-inconsistencies and anachronisms are already apparant with any new race jumping back in time to do old content. Where are Vulpera, Pandaren, Void Elves and Mechagnomes doing in TBC? We just roll with the old gameplay.

I would prefer something like Demon Hunter and DK Class-specific Quest zones that explain your class's role and purpose, but rather than being at the start of your class, it would be at the tail end. You start as a mook like everyone else at Exiles Reach, with very little explanation for your class or your purpose, but as you level up and reach closer to the new expansion, you get a dedicated Echo Class questline that elevates your position and power to equal that of the current Champions, and go straight into the new expansion. By having at the tail end, you avoid dealing with the inconsistencies of being a super unique Dark Ranger that suddenly gets thrown back in time to level up through Pandaria and AU Draenor. You'd be a anonymous Dark Ranger who goes through your choice of questing zones

Does my Warlock-Necromancer go through a story about subduing demons? Or should Blizzard create new experiences in both cases specifically for leveling content? (which is not a bad thing in my opinion, certainly less jarring than, say, my Tauren Sunwalker class skin going through the Lights Hope story)

Echo classes are treated as new classes. It is not a Warlock-Necromancer, it is just a Necromancer. Any ties to gameplay is purely mechanical, while the lore and identity of these classes are purely their own.

That being said, they *can share* certain things with Core classes like an Order Hall location or a questline that applies to both, but for the most part a Necromancer will not have access to Green Fire questline, Demonic Mount quests or the like. That would be kept exclusive to the Warlocks, while the Necromancer gets its own perks and distinctions.

The connection to Warlocks would purely be through Gameplay mechanics. Even something like Summoning Portals and Soul Stones can be omitted from the Necromancer class, because it is Raid Utility that does not directly affect Spec-based Gameplay balance. So stuff like Paladin Blessings would be carried over as self-only buffs instead of Party buffs, and that helps maintain a distinction that these aren't just Paladins you're bringing to the Group, it just happens to be an Echo Class that will perform roughly the same as a Paladin of the same spec/build.

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Not as a Hunter spec, but as a new class spec.
And your idea just rips off several specs from different classes, which i believe would affect balancing.

I'd be happy to discuss and clarify any particular issues you have.

The balancing wouldn't be greatly affected as long as the specs (from different classes) remain exclusive and self-contained, with any (non-combat) Raid Utility being flexibly omitted or kept, and having all party buffs be dedicated as self-only if it conflicts with other Raid-wide buffs.

[AcidicSyn]

Good questions!

For the Dark Ranger specifically, it's actually lore-tied to Unseen Path, so it's possible to apply the Hunter's quests to the Dark Ranger if it makes sense. If it doesn't, I'd omit it completely, and regard Dark Rangers as simply not having it at all. I admit not the best solution, but neither is having Artifacts imbedded into the questing process with no more Artifact Power to build upon. I played through Legion after BFA already came out, and yes it was a sucky experience, but it was also stupidly fast and I practically didn't stay in the Order Hall much at all to reach max level. But that's just me, because I prefer to level up through Dungeons rather than Quests.

I wouldn't advocate creating new retroactive content. I mean, lore-inconsistencies and anachronisms are already apparant with any new race jumping back in time to do old content. Where are Vulpera, Pandaren, Void Elves and Mechagnomes doing in TBC? We just roll with the old gameplay.

I would prefer something like Demon Hunter and DK Class-specific Quest zones that explain your class's role and purpose, but rather than being at the start of your class, it would be at the tail end. You start as a mook like everyone else at Exiles Reach, with very little explanation for your class or your purpose, but as you level up and reach closer to the new expansion, you get a dedicated Echo Class questline that elevates your position and power to equal that of the current Champions, and go straight into the new expansion. By having at the tail end, you avoid dealing with the inconsistencies of being a super unique Dark Ranger that suddenly gets thrown back in time to level up through Pandaria and AU Draenor. You'd be a anonymous Dark Ranger who goes through your choice of questing zones



Echo classes are treated as new classes. It is not a Warlock-Necromancer, it is just a Necromancer. Any ties to gameplay is purely mechanical, while the lore and identity of these classes are purely their own.

That being said, they *can share* certain things with Core classes like an Order Hall location or a questline that applies to both, but for the most part a Necromancer will not have access to Green Fire questline, Demonic Mount quests or the like. That would be kept exclusive to the Warlocks, while the Necromancer gets its own perks and distinctions.

The connection to Warlocks would purely be through Gameplay mechanics. Even something like Summoning Portals and Soul Stones can be omitted from the Necromancer class, because it is Raid Utility that does not directly affect Spec-based Gameplay balance. So stuff like Paladin Blessings would be carried over as self-only buffs instead of Party buffs, and that helps maintain a distinction that these aren't just Paladins you're bringing to the Group, it just happens to be an Echo Class that will perform roughly the same as a Paladin of the same spec/build.

For the first bits I suppose that would just need to be on a case by case basis. I still have trouble seeing Dark Rangers on the unseen path myself, but you mentioned its lore-tied so I'm assuming the class order has something in there tying them? (I would think they'd fit more with the ebon blade myself)

As for the necromancer, my example was using them as a class skin rather than an echo class. I'm pretty nitpicky myself when it comes to immersion though, even something like an NPC calling me Warlock instead of necromancer slightly bugs me.

Speaking in the vein of an echo class though, I like your explanation. Though I'd still find it jarring for a necromancer to share the warlock order hall, especially when Archerus is right there and at least shares the death theme. Heck, a necromancer could share the quest to get a deathcharger or a variation of it too. Your Echos seem like an interesting solution for the necromancer in particular.

[Kalocy Jim]

I voted New Class and 4th Specs for all classes.

More class variety is always a good thing.

Also, lets face it, character balance will never be perfect, nor does it need to be perfect. Its okay if there are FOTMs and classes that hard counter others in PvP. Also PvE DPS doesn't need to be perfectly balanced either. Some classes should be able to shine more than others in any given patch cycle. I think I speak for the community on this one.

[username993720]

Yeah. Luckily now that they've revamped the lvling experience, there's possibility to just skip it.

But, that would, inevitably, exclude an entire expansion-worth of content from a certain class. They can't do that.

... Yes?
i'm aware of that.

No need for a Priest for that.

If it doesn't, I'd omit it completely, and regard Dark Rangers as simply not having it at all.

You do realize that is omitting an entire expansion-worth of content, right? That's like telling a certain player you can't do that content. ever.

The balancing wouldn't be greatly affected as long as the specs (from different classes) remain exclusive and self-contained, with any (non-combat) Raid Utility being flexibly omitted or kept, and having all party buffs be dedicated as self-only if it conflicts with other Raid-wide buffs.

So, there's no overlap between specs?

[Sluvs]

Not really a fan of class skins. It basically kill the possibility for it to be a real class.

[Triceron]

For the first bits I suppose that would just need to be on a case by case basis. I still have trouble seeing Dark Rangers on the unseen path myself, but you mentioned its lore-tied so I'm assuming the class order has something in there tying them? (I would think they'd fit more with the ebon blade myself)

There are Dark Rangers in the Unseen Path Hunters lodge. In context, they're Sylvanas' Dark Rangers, led by Velonara, so there could be anachronisms with whatever Dark Ranger lore we have in the future.

As for the necromancer, my example was using them as a class skin rather than an echo class. I'm pretty nitpicky myself when it comes to immersion though, even something like an NPC calling me Warlock instead of necromancer slightly bugs me.

Speaking in the vein of an echo class though, I like your explanation. Though I'd still find it jarring for a necromancer to share the warlock order hall, especially when Archerus is right there and at least shares the death theme. Heck, a necromancer could share the quest to get a deathcharger or a variation of it too. Your Echos seem like an interesting solution for the necromancer in particular.

Yeah, something like Acherus would be a great place to have Necromancers, where they're helping further the Ebon Blade while benefitting from a safe place to do their dark work.

Class skins would be literally treated as Cosmetics with some lore recognition, really. At the end of the day, Class Skins would still be subject to heavy levels of suspension of disbelief and a willingness to RP to make it work. It's the half-measure option to add new classes, much like some of the Artifact Weapons or Legendaries allowed you to RP a Demon Hunter in TBC, a Blood Mage in Legion or a Dark Ranger in Shadowlands. The added benefit would be throwing in animations, FX and ability names to make it fit better, though it wouldn't be a true replacement for an actual dedicated New Class.

I'd equate it to the Dwarves having Mage and Warlock options in Cataclysm with Dark skin tones to represent Dark Irons. For the most part, it pretty much satisfied a general demand for a Dark Iron race. Getting the actual Allied Race was pleasantly surprising. And as much as I would love a Class Skin system to be *more* than just a cosmetic upgrade, I wouldn't push the concept beyond that since at the end of the day, it really is meant to be a purely cosmetic thing.

[DatToffer]

But, that would, inevitably, exclude an entire expansion-worth of content from a certain class. They can't do that.

I suspect so. Which means either they find a band-aid solution for these new classes to access at least the "common" content.

Or there won't be any new class in the future. Dun dun dun !

[Raetary]

No need for a Priest for that.

No need for a priest for what?

Priests of the moon literally are priests.
That's what you play as when you create a night elf priest, the game mechanics just don't reflect that.

I, however, want the game to reflect that.
If class skins are the only way for Blizzard to finally implement that, then yes please.

[DatToffer]

No need for a priest for what?

Priests of the moon literally are priests.
That's what you play as when you create a night elf priest, the game mechanics just don't reflect that.

I, however, want the game to reflect that.
If class skins are the only way for Blizzard to finally implement that, then yes please.

In early vanilla, Priests had special racial spells depending if they were a troll, a night elf, an undead or whatever. This was pretty cool, but having visual customizations now would be better !

[thunderdragon2]

... Yes?
i'm aware of that.

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Class/race combos or class skins don't have anything to do with balancing.

class race combos do as they need to rebalance racials again

[Triceron]

You do realize that is omitting an entire expansion-worth of content, right? That's like telling a certain player you can't do that content. ever.

Are you talking about Order Hall specifically? Because you can still do all of the other quests pertaining to the Pillars of Creation in the various zones.

I mean, I don't know how that differs from an entirely New Class being added and dealing with the same problems of lacking a specific Order Hall.

So, there's no overlap between specs?

No overlap between any two Core Class specs coming from multiple sources.

If they came from the same class, then obviously some things can be shared.

And the New Spec of the Echo Class could be flexible enough to share abilities with any/both Core specs, given that it fits the overall theme of the spec.


Example:
Spellbreaker has Protection (Paladin), Arcane (Mage) and Spellblade (New Spec).

Protection has all of the abilities of Prot Paladins pertaining the spec and its effectiveness in combat. All abilities visually get adapted to an Arcane blue/purple sparkle. The goal is to maintain balance, therefore it retains all the (shitty) Heal spells, the Blessings, and more. The resource mechanics are also the same; Mana and Holy Power (renamed Arcane Power). Blessings, while carried over, will be self-only buffs instead of Party buffs. Out of Combat abilities like Ressurection can be completely omitted. Divine Shield can be delegated as Prot-only, not Class-wide. None of these abilities will cross over into Arcane spec at all.

Arcane has all the abilities of Arcane Mage pertaining to the spec and its effectiveness in combat. You have all your Mage Armor, Spellsteals, Counterspells intact. Intelligence Buff will be only castable on Self, no longer castable on Party members. Portals and Mage Food/Drinks can be omitted, since they are Out of Combat abilities. Time Warp could be changed to a Self-only cooldown ability rather than Raid buff, while allowing it to remain a party-wide effect for Arenas. Visually, this spec can equip Shields alongside a Sword as an Echo Class perk. None of these abilities cross over into Prot spec.

Spellblade will be the new spec. Since it is new, it can be designed to be anything that helps define a Spellbreaker's identity and gameplay. For the sake of example, we can consider it a Melee DPS spec with mid-long range abilities. To push the Spellbreaker identity, this Melee DPS spec allows 1H + Shield combat, differentiating it from other 'Magical melee' classes. The use of Arcane magic continues as a theme between all specs. Spellblades can be designed to incorporate certain abilities or cooldowns from other specs. Say for this example, a Spellblade spec has access to Divine Shield and Timewarp, making them very effective survivalists and DPS. In this particualr design, Spellblade spec does not carry over other abilities like Lay on Hands or Mirror Image. Those would remain specific to Paladins and Mages as class-wide abilities.

Spellblade would be able to pick and keep whatever suits the gameplay. Spellsteal and Control Magic? Avengers Shield? Sure, lets keep em. Evocation? Holy Light? Not so much. And of course, on top of all that, the Spellblade spec will have its own gameplay designed for itself: Arcane Strike, Mana Fissure, Feedback, Disruption, Spellglaive Storm, etc.

And as a class overall, we can adjust the Class Buffs and Raid Utility where it fits. Sure, this class will lose out on the utility of bringing Blessings or Intel Buffs and Timewarp to the raid, but what you gain instead is a Spellbreaker who has its own brand of Utility and Raid Buffs. We could implement a Moonkin Spell-crit aura that ONLY* affects party members. So in a raid setting, there's going to be plenty of buff overlap where bringing a Spellbreaker isn't going to make a huge difference, but you still have reason to have Spellbreaker, Paladin and Mage in the same Dungeon party.

[FossilFree]

The neat thing about class skins is that it doesn't affect the Legion experience or class halls at all, since you are using existing classes that already have this content. You might think it could clash aesthetically, but the truth is most of the artifacts have opposite theme skins you can choose from already. Paladins have shadowy artifact skins, for instance, so a Void Knight is completely viable.

[username993720]

No need for a priest for what?

Priests of the moon literally are priests.
That's what you play as when you create a night elf priest, the game mechanics just don't reflect that.

I, however, want the game to reflect that.
If class skins are the only way for Blizzard to finally implement that, then yes please.

Not exactly. They're more like rangers.

Are you talking about Order Hall specifically? Because you can still do all of the other quests pertaining to the Pillars of Creation in the various zones.

I mean, I don't know how that differs from an entirely New Class being added and dealing with the same problems of lacking a specific Order Hall.

That's a problem with a new class, as well.
They backed themselves into a corner with that feature.

No overlap between any two Core Class specs coming from multiple sources.

If they came from the same class, then obviously some things can be shared.

And the New Spec of the Echo Class could be flexible enough to share abilities with any/both Core specs, given that it fits the overall theme of the spec.


Example:
Spellbreaker has Protection (Paladin), Arcane (Mage) and Spellblade (New Spec).

Protection has all of the abilities of Prot Paladins pertaining the spec and its effectiveness in combat. All abilities visually get adapted to an Arcane blue/purple sparkle. The goal is to maintain balance, therefore it retains all the (shitty) Heal spells, the Blessings, and more. The resource mechanics are also the same; Mana and Holy Power (renamed Arcane Power). Blessings, while carried over, will be self-only buffs instead of Party buffs. Out of Combat abilities like Ressurection can be completely omitted. Divine Shield can be delegated as Prot-only, not Class-wide. None of these abilities will cross over into Arcane spec at all.

Arcane has all the abilities of Arcane Mage pertaining to the spec and its effectiveness in combat. You have all your Mage Armor, Spellsteals, Counterspells intact. Intelligence Buff will be only castable on Self, no longer castable on Party members. Portals and Mage Food/Drinks can be omitted, since they are Out of Combat abilities. Time Warp could be changed to a Self-only cooldown ability rather than Raid buff, while allowing it to remain a party-wide effect for Arenas. Visually, this spec can equip Shields alongside a Sword as an Echo Class perk. None of these abilities cross over into Prot spec.

Spellblade will be the new spec. Since it is new, it can be designed to be anything that helps define a Spellbreaker's identity and gameplay. For the sake of example, we can consider it a Melee DPS spec with mid-long range abilities. To push the Spellbreaker identity, this Melee DPS spec allows 1H + Shield combat, differentiating it from other 'Magical melee' classes. The use of Arcane magic continues as a theme between all specs. Spellblades can be designed to incorporate certain abilities or cooldowns from other specs. Say for this example, a Spellblade spec has access to Divine Shield and Timewarp, making them very effective survivalists and DPS. In this particualr design, Spellblade spec does not carry over other abilities like Lay on Hands or Mirror Image. Those would remain specific to Paladins and Mages as class-wide abilities.

Spellblade would be able to pick and keep whatever suits the gameplay. Spellsteal and Control Magic? Avengers Shield? Sure, lets keep em. Evocation? Holy Light? Not so much. And of course, on top of all that, the Spellblade spec will have its own gameplay designed for itself: Arcane Strike, Mana Fissure, Feedback, Disruption, Spellglaive Storm, etc.

And as a class overall, we can adjust the Class Buffs and Raid Utility where it fits. Sure, this class will lose out on the utility of bringing Blessings or Intel Buffs and Timewarp to the raid, but what you gain instead is a Spellbreaker who has its own brand of Utility and Raid Buffs. We could implement a Moonkin Spell-crit aura that ONLY* affects party members. So in a raid setting, there's going to be plenty of buff overlap where bringing a Spellbreaker isn't going to make a huge difference, but you still have reason to have Spellbreaker, Paladin and Mage in the same Dungeon party.

Not sharing abilities between specs is highly unlikely.
And the new spec itself would require balancing.
changing or removing several abilities would also affect their standing in a PvE or PvP group.
Basically, it's class skins with extra steps.
Why do all these mental gymnastics when you can just add a new class.
It literally can add 3 new archetypes to the game with its 3 specs, instead of just recycling the same old ones we have with a new coat of paint.

The neat thing about class skins is that it doesn't affect the Legion experience or class halls at all, since you are using existing classes that already have this content. You might think it could clash aesthetically, but the truth is most of the artifacts have opposite theme skins you can choose from already. Paladins have shadowy artifact skins, for instance, so a Void Knight is completely viable.

Because that would merely be a racial representation.
They want class skins to represent a totally new class with no relations, whatsoever, to the class being skinned.

[Triceron]

Not sharing abilities between specs is highly unlikely.
And the new spec itself would require balancing.
changing or removing several abilities would also affect their standing in a PvE or PvP group.
Basically, it's class skins with extra steps.
Why do all these mental gymnastics when you can just add a new class.
It literally can add 3 new archetypes to the game with its 3 specs, instead of just recycling the same old ones we have with a new coat of paint.

Echo classes ARE new classes. They're only a New Class that adds 1 new spec rather than 3.

The benefit of this system is that with just 1 spec to balance out, more classes can be added to the game in succession *or even at the same time* without overly bloating the game with balance problems all around. It's literally just balancing 2-3 new specs globally, while the group dynamics already work as is since we have multiple classes that ended up sharing the same raid buffs. Heck, I'm not even sure if raid buffs are even a big matter these days.

If we realistically consider 3 new archetypes to the game with 3 specs, then the chances of Priestess of the Moon would be slim to none, considering they're pretty much covered thematically by Hunters, Balance Druids and Holy/Disc Priests. An Echo class completely avoids those problems.

[Niwes]

Balancing is really not that hard. All of them aim for some rough number. Blizzard just doesn't care to adjust these numbers properly for all skill and item levels. Some classes scale just way better than others, which is something you can catch during the design phase, but instead they leave it untouched until it becomes problem. Often it's also not even class balance itself that sucks, but just the way encounters favor one niche over another. This becomes quickly apparent in tiers where affliction and shadow reign supreme, and even without knowing the fights I can tell you that there is probably spread 2 target cleave and heavier movment.

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Again where have you been the last few years? My items haven't actually fit my class since late legion.

yeah, agree to everything. my stance was just that Blizz, as you said, will do nothing. and even do more of nothing for 12 additional specs. and therefore they never will do 4th spec. never ever.

[username993720]

Echo classes ARE new classes. They're only a New Class that adds 1 new spec rather than 3.

Are they, though? it's like selling you a half-used iphone and calling it new.

The benefit of this system is that with just 1 spec to balance out, more classes can be added to the game in succession *or even at the same time* without overly bloating the game with balance problems all around. It's literally just balancing 2-3 new specs globally, while the group dynamics already work as is since we have multiple classes that ended up sharing the same raid buffs. Heck, I'm not even sure if raid buffs are even a big matter these days.

Why bother to add anything new at all? class skins are just reskins. Wouldn't it be better?

[Raetary]

Not exactly. They're more like rangers.

They are very much both.
You have your standard priestesses as well as the Huntresses.

[Cosmic Janitor]

yeah, agree to everything. my stance was just that Blizz, as you said, will do nothing. and even do more of nothing for 12 additional specs. and therefore they never will do 4th spec. never ever.

It really doesn't have to be 12 new specs. In fact I'm strictly against doing one for everyone. They should do a few of the strong ones that make sense, ideally in the context of the expansion, but forcing 12 would just lead to low quality trash. Some classes are already very well rounded as far as their fantasy goes, no need to extend that forcibly.

[Triceron]

Are they, though? it's like selling you a half-used iphone and calling it new.

Yes, they are new.

Allied Races are also New Races, even if you personally think they are also half-used iphones.

Why bother to add anything new at all? class skins are just reskins. Wouldn't it be better?

You tell me, you've been the one arguing against POTM and Dark Ranger Class Skins having zero new gameplay to call their own as being a big problem.

Do you think having no gameplay is better than having gameplay to represent the class? Honest question.

[username993720]

They are very much both.
You have your standard priestesses as well as the Huntresses.

So, how are you expecting the Priest to accommodate for both of them?

It really doesn't have to be 12 new specs. In fact I'm strictly against doing one for everyone. They should do a few of the strong ones that make sense, ideally in the context of the expansion, but forcing 12 would just lead to low quality trash. Some classes are already very well rounded as far as their fantasy goes, no need to extend that forcibly.

That would be unfair. Except for the Druid.

Yes, they are new.

Allied Races are also New Races, even if you personally think they are also half-used iphones.

Visually, no.
Racially, yes.

You tell me, you've been the one arguing against POTM Class Skins having zero new gameplay to call their own as being a big problem.

Do you think having no gameplay is better than having gameplay to represent the class? Honest question.

And i still stand by it.
I'm asking why you suddenly don't go full-lazy?