Should the horde be made to pay for the crimes of their leaders?

[Jastall]

The Alliance is on its last legs conscripting recruits when Anduin has to need Sadfang to wage the war. The Alliance is exponentially stronger post-Dazar'alor when it needs to be to make Anduin sending a suicide army and giving up on winning the war a-okay. The Alliance and the rebels combined are exponentially weaker than Sylvanas when she needs to be on the verge of victory to be a raid boss in Shadowlands.

Just awful, isn't it? I genuinely can't parse how people can with a straight face say that SL is worse. It's not very good, but pretty much all of its worst points are either just being kind of boring or are directly inherited from BFA's terrible decision-making.

With the exception of the Jailer not being a great antagonist and the inherent silliness of picking flowers in the afterlife, SL isn't bad by Warcraft standards. At worst you can say that it makes the afterlife too much of a video game expansion rather than a mysterious, actual afterlife but that's the nature of the beast. Its worst plotlines, that being Sylvanas and Tyrande's, are indeed directly following BFA's schizophrenic nonsense. I faceplamed as much as anyone at the SoD ending cinematic, but definitely do not share any sentiment that the lore has hit rock bottom or whatever. We've still miles to go before matching TBC, WoD and BFA. We're about Cata tier of mediocre right now I'd say.

[Mehrunes]

The main races handicapped are the dwarves and Night Elves and the Night Elf neutering dates back to Vanilla. Most of the rest is wank or characters with a schizophrenic power level like Malfurion being able to cause worldwide storms in a Knaak book and never having been implied to do so in any other incarnation or Jaina going from being at serious risk vs. one traitorous blood elf mage or a stray bullet to being able to teleport across the world, fly around ships and be stronger than six Horde named characters and a raid boss. The dwarves on the other hand are the most underused race out there because nu-Blizzard, like nu-Bioware and most other writers don't think we can take short people with beards seriously.

To be fair, she wasn't at risk against Thalen, it's just she couldn't even give him a nosebleed while attacking him with all of her might. Other than that he was surrounded and IIRC also bound. Unless you're talking about someone else.

@Val the Moofia Boss gave an excellent analysis of all the advantages the Alliance has been given over the years (ironically in response to the supposed threat of the Horde) that are then never used or even mentioned ever again. Essentially, it shouldn't even be a contest.

"Excellent analysis" is a weird term to describe a bunch of statements about population numbers pulled straight from the nether and combined with other fanfiction of equally poor quality that has been debunked in other threads already, because they just quoted an old post of theirs.

Telling us something and then showing the opposite does not a good and rational narrative make. If there were enough BEs and green Orcs supporting Sylvanas, they should have showed up, the only time we see them is when like 4 Sunreavers get angry at Lor'themar and then killed.

And yet just few moments earlier Sourfang was telling Anduin that the people that sided with him are the ragtag bunch outside of the tower in which he admitted to Anduin that Sylvanas is the true heiress of the Horde and that he never knew what honor is. So either almost all green Orcs died and as such the few of those that stood next to him in the next quest were indeed representative of their race like you're saying or the Orcs did side with Sylvanas and were simply not shown because Blizzard is not that good at representing large battles.

[Cwimge]

Simply put, much of the problems in the WoW lore can be directly attributed to horde leaders who have done horrible things. Should the horde be made to pay for those crimes in some way?

Also, would you support a fifth Alliance / horde war (in game or in books) where the Alliance actually wins ground and has objective victories for once?

Hard yes to both.

[Mehrunes]

And this "collective guilt" mindset was what paved the way for Hitler & co. when it was applied to post WWI Germany. Which in turn was the reason for it to be promptly phased out at the end of WWII.

The outcome of WWII was much more focused on collective guilt than WWI. The allies spent a decade on a propaganda campaign in occupied Germany and Austria hammering the Nazi atrocities to them (and that Austrians aren't Germans in Austria so that the support for Anschluss would die), which remained in their collective psyche to this day (especially in Germany and Austria). The spirit of all Axis nations was broken after WWII because of what the allies did, which led to massive changes in their societies that were not seen after WWI.

WWI ended only with the idea that Germany as a state was at fault for the war. And since the German government was feeding its own people BS about how they were on the verge of victory right until the very end, the Germans fell to Nazi propaganda of the stab in the back myth, because they couldn't handle the fact that they actually lost WWI fair and square (as well as other Nazi propaganda like how Versailles was oh, so harsh, even though it was literally the most lenient post-WWI treaty, including the Brest-Litovsk treaty that they themselves forced on Russia while it got engulfed in a civil war).

[Super Dickmann]

With the exception of the Jailer not being a great antagonist and the inherent silliness of picking flowers in the afterlife, SL isn't bad by Warcraft standards. At worst you can say that it makes the afterlife too much of a video game expansion rather than a mysterious, actual afterlife but that's the nature of the beast. Its worst plotlines, that being Sylvanas and Tyrande's, are indeed directly following BFA's schizophrenic nonsense. I faceplamed as much as anyone at the SoD ending cinematic, but definitely do not share any sentiment that the lore has hit rock bottom or whatever. We've still miles to go before matching TBC, WoD and BFA. We're about Cata tier of mediocre right now I'd say.

I'd say Slands is worse in setting than WoD and worse in the re-done zone storylines than Cataclysm, but better in terms of main plot than both and story-wise better in every relevant regard to TBC. The actual zone storylines with the exception of Suramar are also better than Legion's with the main plot being of about the same quality but lacking a Velen-tier protagonist to anchor it or the build-up that accompanied the Legion. Gul'dan is a much better Gul'dan than Sylvanas as well.

@Mehrunes

Yeah, it's Thalen I mean, I just misremembered the scene from Jaina attacking him fully and not managing to do much harm to her being in a risky situation in general, which wasn't the case. Mea culpa on that one. Point being the relative parity between her general power level and his compared to her BFA feats.

[Mehrunes]

The Horde is a failed state. It has a barbarian/viking culture, is institutionally fascist, and is incredibly unstable. The Horde historically has a violent transition in power every 2 years, with Thrall to Garrosh being the only peaceful transition of power. The Horde has existed for 39 years since Blackhand became the first Warchief. For those 39 years, there has only been FOUR YEARS where the Horde wasn't a fascist, warmongering regime: the three years under Thrall from Vanilla through the end of Wrath, and the one year Vol'jin was warchief. FOUR YEARS out of 39. The Horde managed to be not evil for 10% of its existence. Also, your average Horde citizen still lives in poverty. It's pretty much North Korea, where all of the money and resources are being dedicated towards military assets... that still pale in comparison to assets of the other coalition they are trying to impress/intimidate.

The Horde needs to be dismantled, full stop. Occupy Orgrimmar and give a general order forbidding the mass congregation of Horde races, lest they are deemed as military build up and get wiped out. Institute a de-hordification program to pacify the populace. Begin civic works projects such as irrigation, clean water, houses that aren't mud huts, etc. Get these people to become subsistence farmers and fishermen. Anyone who wants to maintain their viking ways needs to get deported off the planet, probably to Outland or wherever. The guerilla holdouts who stay will get wiped out by the Kaldorei.

This is the only way to keep them from going evil yet again and committing another genocide and getting into a war with the Alliance.

Since you're just repeating your false claims from other threads I'll just use a trick from your own playbook and link to my own post where I already debunked this stuff. https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53237935

And it's really telling how blatant (and low effort) your fanfiction is when you couldn't even fix your atrocious math in regards to the Horde when multiple corrected that in that thread alone.

Yeah, it's Thalen I mean, I just misremembered the scene from Jaina attacking him fully and not managing to do much harm to her being in a risky situation in general, which wasn't the case. Mea culpa on that one. Point being the relative parity between her general power level and his compared to her BFA feats.

Fair enough. And yeah, I agree. And that event is precisely why the claims about Jaina's power levels in BfA being warranted are so ridiculous (and no, she did not drain the power of Lei Shen). What makes it even better is that the book in question was written by Golden, who's favorable towards Jaina to say the least. Jaina is actually the worst case of a power jump in pretty much the entirety of WoW, because there's absolutely nothing justifying it.

[AcidicSyn]

Which is why I think the horde faction as a whole should pay for what they did. They went along with their leaders. It was only at a point with Alliance intervention that they agreed that some of their deeds were not honorable, hence you got Seige of Orgrimmar, and Shards of Domination.

Lets not forget, even horde players IN GAME got to choose to follow Sylvanas, and regard her as their true leader.

Maybe in game the horde could help with the construction of Alliance strongholds, kind of like forced labor as reparations. I don't know, I think it would be cool to see Alliance taskmasters overseeing orcs rebuilding Alliance bases / locations / building new ones for us.

I remained loyal to Sylvanas AND chose to spare civilians in Astrannar. What is my punishment?

[Soon-TM]

that event is precisely why the claims about Jaina's power levels in BfA being warranted are so ridiculous (and no, she did not drain the power of Lei Shen). What makes it even better is that the book in question was written by Golden, who's favorable towards Jaina to say the least. Jaina is actually the worst case of a power jump in pretty much the entirety of WoW, because there's absolutely nothing justifying it.

Well, one could always assume that getting #@$&ed by a blue dragon cannot but give a huge boost to your spellcasting skills... Even if the effects are not immediately apparent

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Except the Horde wasn't there to create Lebensraum for themselves. Your point rests heavily on what their plans were prior to Saurfang betraying the Horde by sparing Malfurion despite direct orders to kill him and forcing Sylvanas to shift the goal. And what you forgot to mention is that their initial goal was to hold the Night Elves hostage, so that the Alliance would collapse by the Horde forcing individual races into separate peace deals, defeating the very concept of the Alliance. And eliminating people is kinda mutually exclusive with using them as hostages.

I said a couple of time's its the combination of there Orginal plan and the shift that came with burning the tree that mattered, not only did I not forget to mention there plan to keep the night elf's hostage I explicitly did mention it

As to them creating a Lebensraum sure it wasn't part of there initial goal but once the plan changed it sure looks like it's what they had on there mind with quest quotes like these and there plan in a good war to take over the whole of Kalimdor for the hordes future.

Darkshore belongs to the Horde! We must hold that ground to maintain our dominance over Kalimdor. Prepare yourselves. Battle awaits!

https://www.wowhead.com/quest=53955/...-for-darkshore

You're also still deliberately ignoring the part about lesser races despite @Super Dickmann reiterating it multiple times. Which is the core fucking aspect of Nazi ideology and the war crimes the committed because of it. They went to Poland to wipe out the Poles because they viewed the Slavs as subhumans that didn't deserve to exist. This entire motivation is what led to the subdividing mass murder further and creating genocide as a separate crime, because of how abhorrent the allies viewed the idea of killing people over something they were just because of the randomness of birth, like nationality (with Super Dickmann's post neatly explaining the difference between mass murder and genocide as a side effect). Take that out and you're effectively whitewashing the Third Reich.

Can't say I'm interesting in pretending that that the night elf's weren't wiped out because of the randomness of birth like nationality. It might not have been the plan at the start but it was effective outcome with every night elf wiped off the map from ashenvale to dark shore.

[Mehrunes]

Well, one could always assume that getting #@$&ed by a blue dragon cannot but give a huge boost to your spellcasting skills... Even if the effects are not immediately apparent

We'd need to check the Spirit Healer that dated Azuregos for confirmation.

[Feanoro]

And this "collective guilt" mindset was what paved the way for Hitler & co. when it was applied to post WWI Germany. Which in turn was the reason for it to be promptly phased out at the end of WWII.

Are you serious? Collective guilt has been used to hammer everyone German since WWII. Even the German government self-flagellates over events that happened before the current population was born.



The Horde military gleefully participated in atrocities. "I was following orders" is not an excuse. The Horde military should be punished.

The Horde civilians are few and far between (until the "mighty" Horde armies need to hide behind them to avoid consequences). They are not the bulk of the population, they're the ones considered too weak to be the Warchief's cannon fodder. Their sole purpose is to provide for and serve the armies. As such, concerns about punishing them are rather ridiculous.

- - - Updated - - -

I remained loyal to Sylvanas AND chose to spare civilians in Astrannar. What is my punishment?

You will never see a good WoW expansion again.

[Mehrunes]

Can't say I'm interesting in pretending that that the night elf's weren't wiped out because of the randomness of birth like nationality. It might not have been the plan at the start but it was effective outcome with every night elf wiped off the map from ashenvale to dark shore.

Genocide has little to do with "effective outcome" (you don't even have to kill anyone to commit genocide). The fundamental aspect of genocide is intent, particularly how the victims' race, ethnicity, nationality or religion is what leads to the war crimes in question. That's the core thing that makes it a separate crime from mass murder.

The intent in regards to Telrdrassil had squat to do with their birth-related characteristics and everything to do with them being an Alliance member, i.e. a political affiliation they took upon themselves just a decade or so ago. As @Super Dickmann said, if the entire place was run by humans but were geographically situated the same the actions of the Horde would not change. It wouldn't have changed even if it was Harpies. The race wasn't relevant to the action. Political affiliation was.

Meanwhile the Poles were being exterminated by the Nazis just because they were Poles, which the Germans of that time considered to be sinful. Not because they were Allies and as such members of an enemy block. By insisting on this false equivalence you're still effectively whitewashing the Nazis and their crimes. As someone whose family members died in Auschwitz and to Nazi shooting squads precisely for that reason I'd kindly ask you to stop or to take your deliberate ignorance to Stormfront where such BS belongs.

Alternatively give Super Dickmann's post that I referred to 50 more reads and maybe the difference between mass murder and genocide will get hammered into your mind. Though given how I've had this dance with you multiple times in the past to no effect, I won't hold my breath.

[AcidicSyn]

Are you serious? Collective guilt has been used to hammer everyone German since WWII. Even the German government self-flagellates over events that happened before the current population was born.



The Horde military gleefully participated in atrocities. "I was following orders" is not an excuse. The Horde military should be punished.

The Horde civilians are few and far between (until the "mighty" Horde armies need to hide behind them to avoid consequences). They are not the bulk of the population, they're the ones considered too weak to be the Warchief's cannon fodder. Their sole purpose is to provide for and serve the armies. As such, concerns about punishing them are rather ridiculous.

- - - Updated - - -

You will never see a good WoW expansion again.

Well shit aren't I getting that anyway? What would have happened if I killed them?

[hydrium]

"collective guilt" mindset

Seems to be working in America.

[Mehrunes]

Well shit aren't I getting that anyway? What would have happened if I killed them?

Precisely the same thing, given how irrelevant those choices were.

[AcidicSyn]

Precisely the same thing, given how irrelevant those choices were.

Well that's just boring. booooooooo!

[Lorgar Aurelian]

As someone whose family members died in Auschwitz and to Nazi shooting squads precisely for that reason I'd kindly ask you to stop or to take your deliberate ignorance to Stormfront where such BS belongs.

Ya you trying to use such a thing as a bludgeon to stop people from disagreeing with you is something I'm just gonna add to the reasons why I'm not interested in pretending they weren't wiped out for the Randomness of there birth.

You can pretend the total eraser of a race in every settlement every where had nothing to do with there nationality if you want but ill pass.

[Jastall]

And yet just few moments earlier Sourfang was telling Anduin that the people that sided with him are the ragtag bunch outside of the tower in which he admitted to Anduin that Sylvanas is the true heiress of the Horde and that he never knew what honor is. So either almost all green Orcs died and as such the few of those that stood next to him in the next quest were indeed representative of their race like you're saying or the Orcs did side with Sylvanas and were simply not shown because Blizzard is not that good at representing large battles.

As I said to @Super Dickmann, that may be so but it merely changes the writing mishap to telling one thing and showing another later on, and it doesn't make the swerve from "the Horde is losing on all fronts" to "the Horde loyalists significantly overpower both the Alliance and the rebels" any betetr writing.

[The Stormbringer]

Hard to have peace when the Horde has started multiple genocidal (albeit, for contrived reasons) campaigns.

Then make that part of the story. The Alliance has a lot of grievances, and they demand the Horde admit to fault in a number of situations. The Horde is split between wanting peace and being willing to do so, wanting peace and being torn on a decision, and wanting to flip off the Alliance. There can be politicking, intrigue, betrayal, investigation, all sorts of things. There can even be concerns about war flaring up again, but the point would be to work towards a lasting peace instead of just squaring off again for the fiftieth time.

[Feanoro]

Well shit aren't I getting that anyway? What would have happened if I killed them?

You would have been a statistic used to support Danuser's continued employment. Surely that's a worse fate?