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  1. #1741
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    And the getaway driver didn't shoot anyone, but he knowningly worked with the people who did after the shooting, so guess what I feel about his involvement?

    And...why are you even suggesting I'm in favor of the Iraq invasion? I don't remember saying anything like that. HW's attack at least had the excuse that Iraq invaded an ally, but W's attack was a stupid petty revenge hit and should never have happened.

    And re-read what you just wrote. When did the Nazis attack the US?

    Yeah I'm done entertaining this "they didn't personally attack the USA so they're just misunderstood freedom fighters" argument. That's leaning heavily towards Trump talk about the murderous insurrection. Especially from someone who clearly hasn't actually read what I've posted on the subject. Fuck that logic, it's not worth further responses.
    When they declared war on the US?

  2. #1742
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrown1917 View Post
    When they declared war on the US?
    Now, this is a reasonable answer, using political terms of course.

    And that was when? Dec 11, 1941, right? Shortly after their allies bombed Pearl Harbor and the Nazis jumped in to defend them? That sounds a lot like what the Taliban did when their allies attacked US. Now, the Taliban couldn't declare war because, heh, they weren't a country, but they did see the enraged US demanding the person who attacked us, and said "No, and we'll try to stop you if you come here and try." Which I claim is close enough.

    Also US troops started arriving in EUrope in Jan 1942, despite Nazis never physically attacking the US, but had been bombing London since Sept 1940 and France surrendering a few months before. For which we didn't send troops. The parallel is pretty damn strong.

    Or.

    You could go with "attacked" in a far less political, formal sense, as in "when did they actually personally try to damage US" in which case the Nazis didn't seem to do that.

    So, the Taliban either attacked us first in a country-vs-country political sense, like a declaration of war is an attack...or, they didn't attack us but neither did the Nazis.

  3. #1743
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrown1917 View Post
    By that logic a lot of countries governments are terrorist organizations. Which is way to wide of definition.


    ISIS is the Afghan's problem, not the US.
    ISIS is not the Afghan's problems; as ISIS means Islamic State of Iraq and Syria - and Afghanistan isn't in Iraq or Syria.

    They rebranded themselves IS when they got broader ambitions; including Afghanistan and Africa.

    So, most of the actions of Islamic State are outside of Afghanistan, including attacking the US - and thus they are an US-problem.
    However, there is a minor issue of Islamic State-Khorasan which is now part of the Afghan's problems.

  4. #1744
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    This info from the OP ED might be out of date. The Taliban very early in their takeover said they are not going to allow opium farming (for very long at least). Whether they will be able to achieve that may be a different story. But they said they are actively looking at aid from China and Pakistan to switch opium farmers to other crops because drug use does not align with Sharia law.

    The catch is that the US tried the same for years and had no success, since opium is far more profitable than other crops for Afghan farmers. It is one advantage of a heavy-handed government in that part of the world where authoritarian governments are the norm. If the Taliban don't want farmers growing opium, they'll stop them quickly enough one way or another. Them throwing family members in the trunk of a car never to be seen again tends to be a strong incentive. Not that I agree with it, but that's the government they chose when the Afghan military dropped their weapons and walked away from their bases without a fight.

    The Taliban are also working hard to convert a large part of the economy to mineral mining with China rather than farming. I am curious to see how the precarious relationship between China and the Taliban pans out. The mass internment and mistreatment of Uyghur Muslims started only after a handful of small knife terror attacks in China. It would seem to be difficult justify for the Taliban to work closely with a country that has one of the worst records for treatment of Muslims in the world. Add lots of Chinese soon to be working in Afghanistan on mines and the Silk Road Initiative, ISIS-K, insurgents in Afghanistan fighting the Taliban, and you can see how that could go bad quickly.
    Last edited by Biglog; 2021-09-16 at 01:57 PM.

  5. #1745
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biglog View Post
    This info from the OP ED might be out of date. The Taliban very early in their takeover said they are not going to allow opium farming (for very long at least). Whether they will be able to achieve that may be a different story. But they said they are actively looking at aid from China and Pakistan to switch opium farmers to other crops because drug use does not align with Sharia law.
    It's not so much "out of date" as it's intentionally referring to previous years. It's encouraging to see the specific plans they're making to replace that income, though.

  6. #1746
    Ah, someone starting off about Gaza in a thread half a world away. Love this forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    and there it is, the forever back seat driver; barking orders like it's your car and as if anyone is interested in handing you the AUX cord.

    yeah, NO SHIT you don't care about the US being the one who has to spend it's money, resources and lives so you can pretend to piggy back off of an empire that was never yours. it's so easy for you to get angry when you're not the one who has had to suffer from the cultural and financial rot that has been the war on terror. it's so easy to act like an arm chair general and recede into your mind palace and come up with all sorts of inane situations where the switch is flipped and democracy kicks in just like the family guy joke I mentioned in the first response to this thread.



    I'm sorry that facts and history don't jive with your jingoism broseph. the fact that I care at all to criticize it means I care about it more than you do.
    You forgot that Baltics joined the Afghanistan mission, as did so many others. I do love the raging and whining about "rot", whatever that means.
    And I was very clear about "democracy kicking in" - stay as long as is needed, instead of using "going home" as an election slogan for the average voter.

    Also, I love how you did not answer about what America's reaction should have been after Taliban refused to stop sheltering AQ.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    werent all the numbers completely bunk. i.e there was 700 schools in x district on paper, but in reality there was less that 50. The teachers drew a salary that got creamed by the local powerbroker but never actually did any teaching. (outside of the big cities)
    First time hearing this. Pretty sure the education numbers come from the UN.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    If US/EU would care so much, they would simply pay. I see Taliban already asking for $$.

    I'm not some Taliban fanboy, but they already did a pretty effective ban in past and boy do they know how to enforce it too.

    Overall, people should get used to reality that they are the government there for the foreseeable future and that's how it is. Nobody going to be invading Afghanistan anytime soon, unless they want to have their heads on a pike too alongside past invaders.
    Talibs also found out that sellings drugs is really profitable and quickly changed their minds after the invasion. They absolutely will keep doing it. Religious fanatics being hypocrates is a very old thing in the world.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  7. #1747
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrown1917 View Post
    No evidence exists that Gaido would be the more popular choice, he is not exactly well-liked over in Venezuela.
    No. But he was in those elections the only viable alternative. And people voted for him.

    I'm pretty sure you could run Hernan Cortez himself on a ticket for returning Venezuela to the Spanish Empire and people would vote for him over Maduro just because it isn't Maduro.

    Careful not to fall into the trap of supporting fucking kleptocratic authoritarian dictators just because they describe themselves as being on the left.

    Maduro just like Chavez before him are fucking run of the mill Caudillos. What side of the political spectrum they claim to be is utterly irrelevant. They are mob bosses.

    I live in Madrid, it's where all the members of the ruling party send their kids to study, I mean party and flash their wealth.

    Barrio Salamanca (ritziest neighborhood in the city) is choke full of the Venezuelan ruling party's kids. It's almost a running joke.

    And all the ministers in Maduros government have homes up and down the Costa del Sol, mostly around Marbella (Miami of Europe).
    Last edited by Mihalik; 2021-09-16 at 04:55 PM.

  8. #1748
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    No. But he was in those elections the only viable alternative. And people voted for him.
    Does not mean he was actually the more popular candidate, he was also strongly disliked in Venezuela.

    Maduro is hardly the first leader to both have enough support from part of the population while another part of the population hates his guts.

    I'm pretty sure you could run Hernan Cortez himself on a ticket for returning Venezuela to the Spanish Empire and people would vote for him over Maduro just because .
    I doubt it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    ISIS is not the Afghan's problems; as ISIS means Islamic State of Iraq and Syria - and Afghanistan isn't in Iraq or Syria.

    They rebranded themselves IS when they got broader ambitions; including Afghanistan and Africa.

    So, most of the actions of Islamic State are outside of Afghanistan, including attacking the US - and thus they are an US-problem.
    However, there is a minor issue of Islamic State-Khorasan which is now part of the Afghan's problems.
    Ah my bad, ment the Taliban.
    Last edited by JohnBrown1917; 2021-09-16 at 05:32 PM.

  9. #1749
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    It's not their country. They're a small minority who terrorize the rest of the afghan people. They are terrorists no matter how you try to twist it. You don't seem to have any historical knowledge about this subject whatsoever.
    It is there country and no matter how you twist this every country acknowledges this.
    The taliban could not do what it did (survive for this long and take over Afghanistan in a week) if they did not have major support.

  10. #1750
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Calling it "their" country is a big stretch, it's just one group in a sea of many. They would not survive a week if they would not have the biggest stick there.

    The "support" is down to "I don't want my family to be raped and killed by these thugs".

  11. #1751
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    That is what happens when you get incompetents in position of power.

  12. #1752
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Calling it "their" country is a big stretch, it's just one group in a sea of many. They would not survive a week if they would not have the biggest stick there.

    The "support" is down to "I don't want my family to be raped and killed by these thugs".
    Yea, I'm just going to say it. People who are pro war have no intrest in saving other people from being "raped and killed by thugs".
    You lot are just as bad if not worse then anything groups like the Taliban has ever done.

    Would I want to live in Afghanistan? No but then again, I would never support actions that will always result in groups like the Taliban to exist in the first place. The US and Russia are both equal to blame in what's happening in Afghanistan.

  13. #1753
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Calling it "their" country is a big stretch, it's just one group in a sea of many. They would not survive a week if they would not have the biggest stick there.
    Turns out that is how a lot of countries rule, and none of them get labeled as terrorists. What makes Afghanistan different?

    I personally would have no problem with labeling countries as terrorist states, but it would need to be applied to all of the countries that terroize the world or their own citizens.

    The "support" is down to "I don't want my family to be raped and killed by these thugs".
    Not visiting Afghanistan would be a good idea to prevent that.

  14. #1754
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    Yea, I'm just going to say it. People who are pro war have no intrest in saving other people from being "raped and killed by thugs".
    You lot are just as bad if not worse then anything groups like the Taliban has ever done.

    Would I want to live in Afghanistan? No but then again, I would never support actions that will always result in groups like the Taliban to exist in the first place. The US and Russia are both equal to blame in what's happening in Afghanistan.
    Sounds like what a privileged western boy would say.

    No, Taliban IS legit THE worst thing there can be. It's practically North Korea, except that every little village idiot with a gun making the rules on the fly, because there isn't really any centralized leadership and instead it's a bunch of warlords in temporary alliance with unruly mobsters under their "command" pretending to be "legitimate businessmen". There is no worse than that.

    West performance in Afghanistan was pretty bad, their plans were all shit and it resulted in this whole crap. The puppet leadership was corrupt and useless. But say whatever you will, there was a generation of people who at least got a small taste of what you get without thinking about it. It's just a shame it's only one generation and only in big population centers, they will be beaten down into submission quickly by your precious Taliban.

  15. #1755
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Sounds like what a privileged western boy would say.

    No, Taliban IS legit THE worst thing there can be. It's practically North Korea, except that every little village idiot with a gun making the rules on the fly, because there isn't really any centralized leadership and instead it's a bunch of warlords in temporary alliance with unruly mobsters under their "command" pretending to be "legitimate businessmen". There is no worse than that.

    West performance in Afghanistan was pretty bad, their plans were all shit and it resulted in this whole crap. The puppet leadership was corrupt and useless. But say whatever you will, there was a generation of people who at least got a small taste of what you get without thinking about it. It's just a shame it's only one generation and only in big population centers, they will be beaten down into submission quickly by your precious Taliban.
    Talking about privilege.
    What's more privilege then thinking that you know best and then everybody else should bow down to you and if anybody refuses that they should accept the bombs they will definiet receive.

    Again, the Taliban and groups like it are a direct result of the actions of countries like the US, UK and Russia who's own short sighted national intrest can only lead to more conflict. At what point do you take the lessons learned from the stupidity and pointless conflicts and think "maybe next time we stop doing this shit".

  16. #1756
    The Lightbringer bladeXcrasher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    Talking about privilege.
    What's more privilege then thinking that you know best and then everybody else should bow down to you and if anybody refuses that they should accept the bombs they will definiet receive.

    Again, the Taliban and groups like it are a direct result of the actions of countries like the US, UK and Russia who's own short sighted national intrest can only lead to more conflict. At what point do you take the lessons learned from the stupidity and pointless conflicts and think "maybe next time we stop doing this shit".
    You are replying to a person that only cares about their own short sighted national interests.

  17. #1757
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Sounds like what a privileged western boy would say.
    pretty ironic, coming from the privileged Israeli boy.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    Again, the Taliban and groups like it are a direct result of the actions of countries like the US, UK and Russia who's own short sighted national intrest can only lead to more conflict. At what point do you take the lessons learned from the stupidity and pointless conflicts and think "maybe next time we stop doing this shit".
    none of these people give a shit as long as they reap all the benefits and someone else gets stuck with the bill. it's why all these ass blasted Europeans and Israelis pretend that they were ever in a position to do this on their own.

  18. #1758
    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    It is there country and no matter how you twist this every country acknowledges this.
    If you mean their country it is false; France, for one, explicitly refused to recognize them and most governments withheld recognition.

  19. #1759
    Amazing, now we have gotten to the point where people are basically arguing whether Taliban are that bad and how "if just the West would not go there" it would all be good.

    There are no ifs, no buts - they are pieces of absolute shit. Yet some argue and deflect blame...

    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    If you mean their country it is false; France, for one, explicitly refused to recognize them and most governments withheld recognition.
    Even their previous "goverment" was recognized by only, what, 3 countries?
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  20. #1760
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Amazing, now we have gotten to the point where people are basically arguing whether Taliban are that bad and how "if just the West would not go there" it would all be good.
    If Trump hadn't negotiated with them...

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