Not a fan of nerfing the previous tier raids

[Zaqwert]

"They did in original TBC though!"

We aren't doing #NoChanges anymore. We're doing #SomeChanges.

It's been clear that arguably the biggest weakness of classic has been the raid content being too easy and cleared too quickly. How in the hell does it make sense to nerf any of it? If anything they should be doing the opposite.

Increasing the tier token drop to 2 was fine, but the nerfs themselves essentially delete those raids as content.

"What about the people stuck? They'll get left behind"

This mentality is pretty much everything wrong with modern WoW. Not every single person needs to be artificially pushed to the latest tier. It's why the game always feels so small. No matter how much content they release the latest raid is the only thing relevant. They flush everything else down the toilet.

Original TBC is the time in the game I felt like multiple raid tiers were best alive at once. I remember raiding in KZ and Gruul when other guilds were on SSC/TK and the more advanced guilds on my server were on BT.

The game feels bigger and more rewarding when there is a bigger, better thing to chase. When you shove everyone to end constantly, there's no journey anymore.

[Nitros14]

This version of Gruul and Nightbane is the one people fought for 90% of the time TBC was actually out.

I see nothing wrong with this.

[Wewlad]

This version of Gruul and Nightbane is the one people fought for 90% of the time TBC was actually out.

I see nothing wrong with this.

How can I tell you didn't even read the thread?

[Video Games]

I'm stuck in between who cares because it's just t4 which was a joke regardless and the reason they nerfed them was for new players to catch up and I don't think classic is getting any new players so what's the point of nerfing them? Whatev, at least it makes attunements easier if it's needed

[Dequanacus]

"They did in original TBC though!"

We aren't doing #NoChanges anymore. We're doing #SomeChanges.

It's been clear that arguably the biggest weakness of classic has been the raid content being too easy and cleared too quickly. How in the hell does it make sense to nerf any of it? If anything they should be doing the opposite.

Increasing the tier token drop to 2 was fine, but the nerfs themselves essentially delete those raids as content.

"What about the people stuck? They'll get left behind"

This mentality is pretty much everything wrong with modern WoW. Not every single person needs to be artificially pushed to the latest tier. It's why the game always feels so small. No matter how much content they release the latest raid is the only thing relevant. They flush everything else down the toilet.

Original TBC is the time in the game I felt like multiple raid tiers were best alive at once. I remember raiding in KZ and Gruul when other guilds were on SSC/TK and the more advanced guilds on my server were on BT.

The game feels bigger and more rewarding when there is a bigger, better thing to chase. When you shove everyone to end constantly, there's no journey anymore.

They were already a joke

[Belloc]

This version of Gruul and Nightbane is the one people fought for 90% of the time TBC was actually out.

I see nothing wrong with this.

Same version of the fight, yes. Same version of the player classes? No. The fights were tuned for the then-current version of those classes, not the final versions that we get in Classic.

Imagine if we had tier 6 at the start of original BC -- that's how different the damage levels are.

[anveena]

I am. Pugging mag and gruul on my alt is going to be even easier now.

[Zaqwert]

They were already a joke

In either cases nerfs are bad.

If you're right and they were a joke before, why are they making already easy content even easier? What good does that do? You're making something bad even worse.

If you're wrong and they aren't a joke to a lot of people, why are they jokifying them?

And that's my whole argument. I see no benefit whatsoever to nerfing no matter the situation. "welfare raid loot" for people too lazy to have done the raids as they were intended is not a pro, it's a huge con actually.

[chrisnumbers]

I would do the exact opposite, and I would start by giving each boss an extra 25% hp.

[schwank05]

I love tank and spank bosses and can still raid Kara every week from release until this point in time I love it.

[kranur]

I don't exactly see what's the problem ... are you jealous that alts will have an easier time or what?

Cause let's face it, as opposed to 2007-2008 where a ton of new people were joining in all the time is not going to happen in classic therefore you'll just have kara badge runs and t5, gruul and mag pugs.

Because of it's nature and being fully known, you simply won't have a small percentage clearing everything, followed by the rest ... it will be quite the opposite.

[OokOok]

nerfs...buffs... it doesn't matter. It's TBC.

Knowing the fight > Fight difficulty

You see it all the time, fights that are 100X harder in retail for example... Echo and Limit wipe 300-500 times on a boss, kill it and the next reset 1 shot it. Because they know the fight, the fight hasn't been buffed it hasn't been nerfed but they know what to do and how to execute it now.
My point is, TBC is still during a time where mechanics of the era were hard but in modern times even dngs have harder mechanics. Look at gruul... what's the mechanic? spread out.... literally that's it. Keep in mind even when gruul was current in tbc Nihilum 14 manned the fight, it was an easy fight even in 2006

They said they were putting in pre nerf muru, but the muru hype is really uncalled for. People will still kill it in a couple pulls. Players have 15 years worth of experience, notes, videos, everything that the fights just don't matter. The only way TBC was ever going to be hard is if blizzard added in custom mechanics or buffed bosses but the player base reaps what they sow they cried and cried and cried for no changes....well... here you go

WOTLK, icc 0% buff I promise people will still 5 pull heroic LK. It won't matter so stop complaining and making it seem like no one saw this coming

[Akka]

Putting in these nerfs is retarded. It's the sort of mentality that made retail shit and that we asked Classic to get away from to begin with.

[Mightytasty]

I agree the nerfs are not needed. Gruul is a loot piñata now. Raids are the only thing I enjoy about TBC and they’re becoming more boring.

[Nilinor]

Im curious why does it matter?

If people are as good as they claim to be, there should be 0 reason to go back into Kara/Gruul/Mag. Nerfed or not shouldn't concern you since you never should be in there again. SSC/TK should be all your doing, and when those get nerfed at Hyjal/BT release, you shouldn't be going in them anymore either.

[Kralljin]

If people are as good as they claim to be, there should be 0 reason to go back into Kara/Gruul/Mag.

DST is still BiS for a lot of people, unless you're lucky and the Leotheras Weapon / KT Staff, Spell Sword off Gruul is still good, Mag Head offers a solid Ring even in P2.

Reminder, this is TBC, not "Play the Patch" Retail.

[Demsi]

If it means faster clears i welcome it, i'm sick to death of t4 raids at this point

[crakerjack]

I agree the nerfs are not needed. Gruul is a loot piñata now. Raids are the only thing I enjoy about TBC and they’re becoming more boring.

Your guild is 10/10 t5?

[Nilinor]

DST is still BiS for a lot of people, unless you're lucky and the Leotheras Weapon / KT Staff, Spell Sword off Gruul is still good, Mag Head offers a solid Ring even in P2.

Reminder, this is TBC, not "Play the Patch" Retail.

However, if it was already super easy, they shouldnt need that stuff to clear the new things. People choose to have the absolute bis, when its not actually necessary to have the best in every slot. If anything they should praise the nerfs to make clearing it faster so they can get to the "new" content that actually matters.

[Kralljin]

However, if it was already super easy, they shouldnt need that stuff to clear the new things.

If it was about the absolute minimum, then you could probably skip T5 entirely and just wait for T6...

...or you could skip T6 entirely and for wait for SWP.

This argument seems like a bad attempt to get some kind "gotcha" from people.

People choose to have the absolute bis, when its not actually necessary to have the best in every slot. If anything they should praise the nerfs to make clearing it faster so they can get to the "new" content that actually matters.

By that logic, just having a weekly chest that simply gives you loot would the best solution.

Those nerfs aren't a huge deal to me, but your logic is just flawed, the content wasn't exactly hard before but considering how easy it turned out to be, implementing those nerfs now is just overkill.
Please, people just don't a situation where virtually every raid feels like Archavons Vault where success is a given, especially Magtheridon provided at least some challenge due to the rotation of people on the cubes.