US, Uk and Australia announce new defence partnership, technology sharing

[Shadowferal]

Well, in a few months maybe someone can post a reminder.

[Specialka]

It's funny the amount of copium being huffed on this topic in here. France had its shot. It missed deadline after deadline. It missed cost points time and time again. The product to be delivered kept losing operational value as cost continued to skyrocket. So the Australians went to a different dealer. If France delivered anywhere even remotely near when they were suppose to at anywhere near the price it was suppose to be it wouldn't even be a conversation.

They, as in France, dropped the ball. If they want to cry about it then they can. If people want to dream of some NATO breakup because the US and UK are willing to deliver than take another huff of the cope. Because it isn't happening. Probably won't even hear of it in 6 months when some other reasons to cry about other things arise.

You have no idea how these deals works. Those deals have always delays and increased costs. Plus, most of the delays are due to Australia because they wanted to build most of what they could in Australia (and they had no prior expertise).

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They literally committed a terrorist attack over nz not letting them test nukes nearby.

They're not the sharpest tool in the shed either.

It was nearly 36 years ago. To me, you are not that sharp either.

[Corvus]

You have no idea how these deals works. Those deals have always delays and increased costs. Plus, most of the delays are due to Australia because they wanted to build most of what they could in Australia (and they had no prior expertise).

The project was already 10 years behind schedule just 5 years after beginning, which takes some doing. The sub still hadn't finished being designed. And the cost per sub had blown way out, from 1-3 billion initially to 7.5 billion now. That isn't loose change.

And Australia does have expertise. The currently operated Collins class submarine was built in Australia and maintained there as well.

China is acting as maturely as normal. Despite this being an internal matter, something they famously say should not be interfered with by foreign countries, they have said that Australia is now a nuclear bomb target for buying new subs.

[PACOX]

Maybe the US and UK won't be on point. But we are still in the maybe zone. France was in the triple overtime and asking for triple rent and the need to maybe double it again here in a minute zone already.

Of course it was about making China mad. France had its shot to be that player and fumbled. Now the US and UK get their shot. Anything beyond that is just smoking cope.

According to France, and the statement the WH put out, France was indeed left out of the process. Canceling France's deal is one thing, but it seems like it wasn't communicated to France that the other countries were going to do that, which is kind of shitty among allies. Its like a friend was going to throw a party at their house but despite all their efforts their house was just too small. The tried to make it work anyway because thats what friends do. All of a sudden the group decides to move the party without even telling the person who was trying to host the party at first. That person might have been disappointed but would have understood but gotten over it, but no one even bothered to keep them in the loop. Its very shady, rude, and disrespectful.

[Bluespiderman57]

According to France, and the statement the WH put out, France was indeed left out of the process. Canceling France's deal is one thing, but it seems like it wasn't communicated to France that the other countries were going to do that, which is kind of shitty among allies. Its like a friend was going to throw a party at their house but despite all their efforts their house was just too small. The tried to make it work anyway because thats what friends do. All of a sudden the group decides to move the party without even telling the person who was trying to host the party at first. That person might have been disappointed but would have understood but gotten over it, but no one even bothered to keep them in the loop. Its very shady, rude, and disrespectful.

It's really interesting that you compare this situation to a group of friends. Reminds me of a quote from a famous Frenchman.

Charles De Gaulle (in English): “France has no friends, only interests.” (De Gaulle did not speak specifically of France, but of all nation-states, including Britain. This remark was in line with his saying “Men can have friends, statesmen cannot").
Les hommes peuvent avoir des amis, pas les hommes d’Etat. Interview, December 9 1967.

[Draco-Onis]

It's really interesting that you compare this situation to a group of friends. Reminds me of a quote from a famous Frenchman.

Charles De Gaulle (in English): “France has no friends, only interests.” (De Gaulle did not speak specifically of France, but of all nation-states, including Britain. This remark was in line with his saying “Men can have friends, statesmen cannot").
Les hommes peuvent avoir des amis, pas les hommes d’Etat. Interview, December 9 1967.

How is that relevant to France in 2021? Do you want the French to start quoting something in the modern day that is far more isolationist? like I don't know Donald Trump pick a year.

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Maybe the US and UK won't be on point. But we are still in the maybe zone. France was in the triple overtime and asking for triple rent and the need to maybe double it again here in a minute zone already.

Of course it was about making China mad. France had its shot to be that player and fumbled. Now the US and UK get their shot. Anything beyond that is just smoking cope.

Well in the process of making it about China made we pissed off the French which is a bad move considering we just had Donald Trump for 4 years who only antagonized EU allies. The process was done badly it's a diplomatic disaster the logistics of it are rather irrelevant, this is not how you treat your allies.

The China stupidity needs to die frankly the world is not on the same page as us and China isn't going to change. This is all about fear mongering the public about "communism" and padding the pockets of mercenaries I mean defense contractors.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

According to France, and the statement the WH put out, France was indeed left out of the process. Canceling France's deal is one thing, but it seems like it wasn't communicated to France that the other countries were going to do that, which is kind of shitty among allies. Its like a friend was going to throw a party at their house but despite all their efforts their house was just too small. The tried to make it work anyway because thats what friends do. All of a sudden the group decides to move the party without even telling the person who was trying to host the party at first. That person might have been disappointed but would have understood but gotten over it, but no one even bothered to keep them in the loop. Its very shady, rude, and disrespectful.

Well no kidding they were left out. When you have your shot and blow it you get left out. If I go into work today, offer to take on a big project, then after several years and the whole being being way behind and terribly over budget with nothing to show.. they hand it to someone else.. they don't invite me to continue to lead the process. I probably get fired actually. Which is what happened to France. Fired.

But I get it.. a lot of people need that hit of copium over the whole thing. Good for them. Keep smoking the cope. It doesn't change anything but I understand it might help. France failed here. The US and UK are showing up to get things rolling again.

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Well in the process of making it about China made we pissed off the French which is a bad move considering we just had Donald Trump for 4 years who only antagonized EU allies. The process was done badly it's a diplomatic disaster the logistics of it are rather irrelevant, this is not how you treat your allies.

The China stupidity needs to die frankly the world is not on the same page as us and China isn't going to change. This is all about fear mongering the public about "communism" and padding the pockets of mercenaries I mean defense contractors.

You are right. We pissed off France. UK seems pretty cool with it though. I haven't seen any protest from Germany or the others. Just seems like little snowflake that FAILED fully is the only one that got its feelings hurt. If it wanted the deal it had its chance. For years. For extra money. But nothing but fails. They had their chances times and time again and failed.

Also about the China thing. What the fuck do you think the France deal for subs was about? Whale studies? It was about Australia having more opposing power to China too. Just now that it is the US and UK doing it.. well.. cry cry cry. It is what both deals were about and anyone with a brain knows it. The problem seems to be which side is getting its pockets lined to do it instead of the process of lining pockets.

The cope smoking is strong in this one.

[Draco-Onis]

You are right. We pissed off France. UK seems pretty cool with it though. I haven't seen any protest from Germany or the others. Just seems like little snowflake that FAILED fully is the only one that got its feelings hurt. If it wanted the deal it had its chance. For years. For extra money. But nothing but fails. They had their chances times and time again and failed.

Also about the China thing. What the fuck do you think the France deal for subs was about? Whale studies? It was about Australia having more opposing power to China too. Just now that it is the US and UK doing it.. well.. cry cry cry. It is what both deals were about and anyone with a brain knows it. The problem seems to be which side is getting its pockets lined to do it instead of the process of lining pockets.

The cope smoking is strong in this one.

Again it's not about the deal it's about communications, Australia needed to update their fleet this deal is probably going to sink because Australia doesn't have a nuclear program and it will be hard to pass domestically. You seem to be missing the forest for the trees, Germany is going into elections they will refrain from saying much but losing allies is not what you want when trying to use global powers to get concessions from China. France has a lot of influence in the EU maybe they will pay us back maybe they won't that seems unnecessary for something a few calls and e-mails months ago would have avoided.

[Veggie50]

It's funny the amount of copium being huffed on this topic in here. France had its shot. It missed deadline after deadline. It missed cost points time and time again. The product to be delivered kept losing operational value as cost continued to skyrocket. So the Australians went to a different dealer. If France delivered anywhere even remotely near when they were suppose to at anywhere near the price it was suppose to be it wouldn't even be a conversation.

They, as in France, dropped the ball. If they want to cry about it then they can. If people want to dream of some NATO breakup because the US and UK are willing to deliver than take another huff of the cope. Because it isn't happening. Probably won't even hear of it in 6 months when some other reasons to cry about other things arise.

Yea, it’s totally john’s fault rebecca cheated on him. It’s his fault for not providing her with what she needed, so another man did, don’t be so butthurt about it.

The issue is not that australia put aside their french commitment. The issue is how they went about doing it.

[Shadowferal]

Aukus: Defence pact an awkward wake-up call for Europe

And while France has condemned the Australia-UK-US security pact as a "stab in the back", it is certainly awkward for the European Union too.

Firstly, because not only were they not in the room for discussions, they barely seemed to know the room existed.

Josep Borrell is the EU's High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy. A big title but one that had not, in this case, gained him any privileged access.

Aukus is being seen as a significant attempt to counter Chinese influence in the South China Sea.

The foreign policy chief admitted he was not exactly "glad" at how the timings had clashed but also declared it was a wake-up call for Europe, that they had to take the initiative.

But that leads to a second awkwardness. How?

The EU is not a military power, although we heard calls this week from Commission President Ursula von der Leyen for a "European Defence Union". Cue eye-rolls amongst some who feel like they have heard it all before.

Even if the EU could figure out how to flex some more muscle, it would have to then decide what that was for.

And that would not be easy either.

"The strategic environment does not look the same from Warsaw, Athens, Paris or Berlin," says Ian Lesser, vice-president of policy think tank The German Marshall Fund of the United States.

However, he suggests the European Union is pretty clear in terms of what it does not want, which goes to a third issue.

The EU does not want to be caught in the middle as things escalate: to have to choose, as he puts it, "between the United States and China in an increasingly fraught environment".

Finally, member state France is seething. A significant military power in its own right, France has interests and a presence in the region. Its deal with Australia was a key part of its strategy there.

The multibillion-dollar contract is one thing, the hit on a painstakingly constructed regional strategy another.

Things heated up this week between the West and China and the EU did not quite know where to look.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Yea, it’s totally john’s fault rebecca cheated on him. It’s his fault for not providing her with what she needed, so another man did, don’t be so butthurt about it.

The issue is not that australia put aside their french commitment. The issue is how they went about doing it.

Business and a relationship is nothing the same. Also how you add in the issue is how it went about doing it instead is funny with your analogy. Its like saying cheating would have been ok if they just did it a little different. See how dumb is sounds when you look at it though your lense? That is what happens when you are high on copium. Anything makes sense to fit a narrative.

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Again it's not about the deal it's about communications, Australia needed to update their fleet this deal is probably going to sink because Australia doesn't have a nuclear program and it will be hard to pass domestically. You seem to be missing the forest for the trees, Germany is going into elections they will refrain from saying much but losing allies is not what you want when trying to use global powers to get concessions from China. France has a lot of influence in the EU maybe they will pay us back maybe they won't that seems unnecessary for something a few calls and e-mails months ago would have avoided.

Excuses excuses.. so its not important enough to worry an election over. Makes sense. Shows how low on the roller it is. I want nothing. I get no money from this deal by the way. So trying to pin it on me personally in anyway is just that cope smoke talking in your head. France can do what it wants in the EU. Truth is in 6 months they will be back at the table and it will be like nothing happened. Because that is how this works. Its business. That is all. Just like the Australian deal falls though. Business. Who cares in the end. I am sure the US won't recall its ambassadors from Australia if it happens because its a childish move. Just like it is with France now.

[Draco-Onis]

Excuses excuses.. so its not important enough to worry an election over. Makes sense. Shows how low on the roller it is. I want nothing. I get no money from this deal by the way. So trying to pin it on me personally in anyway is just that cope smoke talking in your head. France can do what it wants in the EU. Truth is in 6 months they will be back at the table and it will be like nothing happened. Because that is how this works. Its business. That is all. Just like the Australian deal falls though. Business. Who cares in the end. I am sure the US won't recall its ambassadors from Australia if it happens because its a childish move. Just like it is with France now.

Where are you getting all this? all I meant is countries try to stay out of foreign affairs when they go into elections and this was a diplomatic mistake by Biden. I am also saying their reaction is warranted because how do they know we won't screw them on other deals without telling them? the bigger picture is that this is about trust something we lost a lot of under Trump.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Where are you getting all this? all I meant is countries try to stay out of foreign affairs when they go into elections and this was a diplomatic mistake by Biden. I am also saying their reaction is warranted because how do they know we won't screw them on other deals without telling them? the bigger picture is that this is about trust something we lost a lot of under Trump.

It umm.. came from your previous post actually..

mind passing that cope over here? You seem to got some really really good shit.

[Draco-Onis]

It umm.. came from your previous post actually..

mind passing that cope over here? You seem to got some really really good shit.

You know this copium thing gets old unless you are a teenager on tick tok, I made my point feel free to get high on your time.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

You know this copium thing gets old unless you are a teenager on tick tok, I made my point feel free to get high on your time.

Well at least you shifted the narrative away from your foolery.

I only say it because its absolutely true. The fact you took it to personal insults kinda shows me it was kinda on the mark.

[Draco-Onis]

Well at least you shifted the narrative away from your foolery.

I only say it because its absolutely true. The fact you took it to personal insults kinda shows me it was kinda on the mark.

Where did I personally insult you? I said you mistook the forest for the trees, when I try to insult people I am not subtle so I am kind of insulted that you got insulted without me even trying. When you got offensive for reasons I am still unclear about that's when you got the sass so color me confused.

[Biglog]

The right is desperately grasping at any straw they can find to try to bash Biden since the moment he was inaugurated as some sort of foreign policy failure. Biden decided that the value of a partnership and frankly building up the capabilities with regional (pseudo-regional in the case of the UK) allies vs. an increasingly aggressive and expanding China is a great foreign policy move, and it's value outweighs any complaints from the French upset about losing some defense sales to Australia. That's not a foreign policy mistake whatsoever, it's a great move to counter China.

People not paying attention to regional events there may not be aware of China's rapid drives to expand their borders. They make daily incursions in Taiwan's ADIZ by PLA military aircraft, claims over Vietnamese and other fishing territories, claiming Japanese islands as Chinese, claiming islands in the South China Sea as their own (or just building islands there), they claimed the ENTIRE South China Sea as theirs because it had the name China in it (lol), claiming Indian border territory as theirs, etc. In fact China has territorial border disputes with nearly every country to the south and east of them. Their eagerness to imperially expand is quite clear when they have an active border dispute claiming the land or water of almost every nearby country except Russia and Pakistan.

In fact it's kind of ironic considering the right has often attacked Biden as being too friendly to China, when Biden was the one that took action vs. them that Trump failed to do as they pushed to expand. All Trump did was ask China to help him win the election fraudulently and when they laughed in his face and said no we're not getting involved, he started the racist 'China flu'/'Wuhan flu' comments that led to Asians being attacked in the US.

Also, the UK has plenty of regional interests in Asia still and it's why they have aircraft carriers visit the region often. Do not forget that the UK handed Hong Kong back to China *conditionally* that they remain a democratic and autonomous region. China very much failed to live up to that obligation when they cracked down hard and implemented their anti-protest policies, sending protesters to China and stacking the deck in Hong Kong so only people friendly to Beijing can run for office there. The UK certainly isn't going to forcefully take back Hong Kong because China reneged on their end of the deal, but they aren't happy about it at all and I'm sure it played into the decision to be part of the agreement. That's especially the case in light of China's push to expand everywhere they see an opportunity to bully a smaller neighbor.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

The right is desperately grasping at any straw they can find to try to bash Biden since the moment he was inaugurated as some sort of foreign policy failure. Biden decided that the value of a partnership and frankly building up the capabilities with regional (pseudo-regional in the case of the UK) allies vs. an increasingly aggressive and expanding China is a great foreign policy move, and it's value outweighs any complaints from the French upset about losing some defense sales to Australia. That's not a foreign policy mistake whatsoever, it's a great move to counter China.

People not paying attention to regional events there may not be aware of China's rapid drives to expand their borders. They make daily incursions in Taiwan's ADIZ by PLA military aircraft, claims over Vietnamese and other fishing territories, claiming Japanese islands as Chinese, claiming islands in the South China Sea as their own (or just building islands there), they claimed the ENTIRE South China Sea as theirs because it had the name China in it (lol), claiming Indian border territory as theirs, etc. In fact China has territorial border disputes with nearly every country to the south and east of them. Their eagerness to imperially expand is quite clear when they have an active border dispute claiming the land or water of almost every nearby country except Russia and Pakistan.

In fact it's kind of ironic considering the right has often attacked Biden as being too friendly to China, when Biden was the one that took action vs. them that Trump failed to do as they pushed to expand. All Trump did was ask China to help him win the election fraudulently and when they laughed in his face and said no we're not getting involved, he started the racist 'China flu'/'Wuhan flu' comments that led to Asians being attacked in the US.

Also, the UK has plenty of regional interests in Asia still and it's why they have aircraft carriers visit the region often. Do not forget that the UK handed Hong Kong back to China *conditionally* that they remain a democratic and autonomous region. China very much failed to live up to that obligation when they cracked down hard and implemented their anti-protest policies, sending protesters to China and stacking the deck in Hong Kong so only people friendly to Beijing can run for office there. The UK certainly isn't going to forcefully take back Hong Kong because China reneged on their end of the deal, but they aren't happy about it at all and I'm sure it played into the decision to be part of the agreement. That's especially the case in light of China's push to expand everywhere they see an opportunity to bully a smaller neighbor.

Exactly. Far right extremists or your typical "hate America" types are pretty much behind it. France will just have its face in the pillow for a bit while it cries and it will be back like nothing happened.

[Draco-Onis]

The right is desperately grasping at any straw they can find to try to bash Biden since the moment he was inaugurated as some sort of foreign policy failure. Biden decided that the value of a partnership and frankly building up the capabilities with regional (pseudo-regional in the case of the UK) allies vs. an increasingly aggressive and expanding China is a great foreign policy move, and it's value outweighs any complaints from the French upset about losing some defense sales to Australia. That's not a foreign policy mistake whatsoever, it's a great move to counter China.

People not paying attention to regional events there may not be aware of China's rapid drives to expand their borders. They make daily incursions in Taiwan's ADIZ by PLA military aircraft, claims over Vietnamese and other fishing territories, claiming Japanese islands as Chinese, claiming islands in the South China Sea as their own (or just building islands there), they claimed the ENTIRE South China Sea as theirs because it had the name China in it (lol), claiming Indian border territory as theirs, etc. In fact China has territorial border disputes with nearly every country to the south and east of them. Their eagerness to imperially expand is quite clear when they have an active border dispute claiming the land or water of almost every nearby country except Russia and Pakistan.

In fact it's kind of ironic considering the right has often attacked Biden as being too friendly to China, when Biden was the one that took action vs. them that Trump failed to do as they pushed to expand. All Trump did was ask China to help him win the election fraudulently and when they laughed in his face and said no we're not getting involved, he started the racist 'China flu'/'Wuhan flu' comments that led to Asians being attacked in the US.

Also, the UK has plenty of regional interests in Asia still and it's why they have aircraft carriers visit the region often. Do not forget that the UK handed Hong Kong back to China *conditionally* that they remain a democratic and autonomous region. China very much failed to live up to that obligation when they cracked down hard and implemented their anti-protest policies, sending protesters to China and stacking the deck in Hong Kong so only people friendly to Beijing can run for office there. The UK certainly isn't going to forcefully take back Hong Kong because China reneged on their end of the deal, but they aren't happy about it at all and I'm sure it played into the decision to be part of the agreement. That's especially the case in light of China's push to expand everywhere they see an opportunity to bully a smaller neighbor.

It's not about the deal it's about proper communications with allies like France and for France it's about saving face and making sure this doesn't happen again in the future. If you are blindly going to defend everything Biden does then you are no better than the Trump supporters so aside from the fact that I do not like the saber rattling this is a failure. All Biden had to do was pick up the phone and talk to France way way ahead of this and this whole drama would have been avoided.

[Specialka]

Business and a relationship is nothing the same. Also how you add in the issue is how it went about doing it instead is funny with your analogy. Its like saying cheating would have been ok if they just did it a little different. See how dumb is sounds when you look at it though your lense? That is what happens when you are high on copium. Anything makes sense to fit a narrative.

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Excuses excuses.. so its not important enough to worry an election over. Makes sense. Shows how low on the roller it is. I want nothing. I get no money from this deal by the way. So trying to pin it on me personally in anyway is just that cope smoke talking in your head. France can do what it wants in the EU. Truth is in 6 months they will be back at the table and it will be like nothing happened. Because that is how this works. Its business. That is all. Just like the Australian deal falls though. Business. Who cares in the end. I am sure the US won't recall its ambassadors from Australia if it happens because its a childish move. Just like it is with France now.

You really have no clue how diplomatic relations works, don't you ? Recalling an ambassador is pretty strong move in the diplomatic arsenal and it sends a clear signal to the opposing party. It is by far not a childish move.