M+ needs back Titanforging

[Advent]

They could just add it back if they want, there has been next to no positivity regarding gearing and the fact most rng has been taken out of it. Despite the fact your lootdrops are still significantly higher than they used to be before 7.0 (considering the vault aswell) people are still complaining to no end. Its getting ridiculous at this point, but titanforging would kind of be an easy ''solution''. It can be seen as the lesser evil.

I hate titanforging personally, a lot actually, but objectively its rather obvious ppl dont apperciate it being removed. Not enough to stick around or think the game is a lot better as a result. The ''community'' doesnt even acknowledge the change anymore with the ''blizz doesnt listen'' mantra. If they reimplement titanforging, I would actually understand.

There's often a lot of complaints about changes with the game without acknowledging why those changes were made in the first place. Either people don't remember, or don't know, but it makes discourse on the game's direction exceedingly difficult. Especially on this forum.

[Couchpotato2013]

Depressingly hilarious seeing some of y’alls pleas for TFing to come back.

I will not provide the sound rationale for why it was removed because words will not reach you in your clown world.

The only, ONLY positive of Titanforging was that it kept old tiers relevant (font/coral, draught of souls, Convergence of fate, etc). M+ is always relevant because it scales to a cap and is updated each season.

Y’alls gripes are with (at the current moment) not being able to spam keys to get 252/259s. And the answer to that would be for blizzard to extend the ilvl of gear beyond just 15s (preferentially to 20s). Not by adding more RNG bs.

Absolutely shamelessness from anyone asking for such a player hostile feature to come back.

[klaps_05]

Game needs less rng not more.

1. Slight increase to valor cap per week.
2. Standardize upgrade costs (nobody will pay 1k valor per weapon upgrade).
3. Add Mythic bosses currency with vendor to buy specific mythic item (limit it to 1 buy per week from bosses you have killed before, but guaranteed you get it).
4. Add Avoidance/Leech/Speed enchants to professions as a craftable item.
5. Add achievement to upgrade M+ items to Mythic raid quality. Something like do all keys on +20 or higher on both Tyrannical and Fortified and then complete 50 keys above +20. Then this will be similar to the Glad system and Raid items will still offer set bonuses/trinkets/weapon effects. This way m+ players can do just m+ but the incentive to further min/max by having the special raid gear will still be there. On the other hand, Raiders will have the opportunity to push themselves if there is a certain dungeon trinket/weapon/itemization they need, but still need the achievement and actual valor to upgrade the items.

[Kuvanet]

In my opinion TF was awful and just mostly forced you to continue rolling the dice on rolling the dice. You essentially rolled three separate diced each time you do a dungeon. Once for an item to drop, once for the correct item to drop, and lastly for it to TF. I think the current setup is fine, just maybe remove the weekly vault and let us upgrade our item to match the current max from the vault. Just my opinion.

[Empower]

I think it needs its drop rate restored to what it was it takes far to long gear up alts. Ilv seems fine.

[Kayytee]

Its infuriating that I can't get the best gear in the game for doing the hardest content in the game.
If they want to give m+ gear the same treatment as pvp gear where it scales down outside of m+, that's fine with me.
But something's gotta give. There is no reason why valor can't upgrade up to 252.

[tomten]

Cap it at mythic ilvl and your issue is no longer an issue. Can be so simple..

And invalidate a whole raiding mode, aka heroic?
No thanks. But please, enlighten us of your simple solutions...

[Squigglyo]

One solution could be to do to all gear what they did once to PVP gear with scaling.


Conquest Gear is 252 in Battlegrounds but caps out at 239 in Raids/Mythic+
Mythic+ Gear is 252 from +15 but in raids/pvp caps out at 239
Raiding Gear is 252 from Mythic, but in mythic+/pvp caps out at 239

This way, the gear isnt identical in all content so if its easier to get in one place, it doesnt matter.
And each of the 3 streams of content can have their own progression, while being loosely tied to the other so you arent completly gimped.



Could even have a Void Storage style NPC that stores up to 3 pieces of gear.
EG: Store 3 Helmets - One from mythic+, one from raid and one from PVP. You will automatically change to the correct one when in that specific content.

[Ryzeth]

Possibly one of the worst takes to have this week.

[exochaft]

The glaring issues with WF/TF towards its end was two-fold:

1.) The amount an item could increase in ilvl compared to where you obtained said item was way too high.

2.) There was no other system in place that could combat bad luck or RNG.

As some have mentioned, the WF/TF system at the end of MoP was generally considered fine because no amount of ilvl random upgrade would invalidate the need to do higher content. For example, a WF ilvl boost from a heroic raid drop would never beat the ilvl of a mythic raid drop. This allowed a pathway to ilvl upgrades within your own progression without invalidating the need to eventually do the higher level content. This also severely lessens the need to do content below your appropriate progression path in order to get upgrades. However, Blizz let the system get way out of control to where it made content often feel either completely pointless or you had to do all the content if you were to play the game 'correctly'.

Now, as with many WoW systems, the WF/TF system wasn't necessarily a bad idea in a vacuum... but when meshed with all the other systems in the game it tended to fall apart. While it could feel amazing to get a maxed-out ilvl BiS trinket, it made getting normal loot or others getting higher ilvl loot just randomly feel absolutely terrible. One way this could have been combated would have been the implementation of the Valor upgrade system (in fact, I was one of many people who were telling Blizz this back in BfA testing phases if they weren't going to get rid of WF/TF). Being completely at the mercy of RNG this severe is never fun in the long run, but having a tangible path of progression that is within your control makes the situation a whole lot better. Personally, I felt the WF/TF system should've just been a perk along a Valor upgrade system, where you could get lucky and save some currency to upgrade your item... but in the end, you'll be able to upgrade your item to the WF/TF level anyways with a little more time.

In the end, Blizz took a system and turned it into a bastardized monster of its former self... which is not really a new thing as of late. WF/TF was a case of Blizz sticking to their guns no matter what, despite the long-term damage it was inflicting on players and the constant feedback that there was something wrong with the system. Again, the system by itself isn't a bad thing, but there needs to be other ways to achieve the same ends within your preferred content without just hoping you get lucky all the time.

*edit* - Forgot to mention that ilvl inflation caused by the system itself had some nasty ramifications over time. While Blizz is trying to combat this to some degree, I feel like they're making the systems exacerbate the problem.

If anything, I feel like the highest levels of content shouldn't be rewarding higher ilvl gear anymore. As an example, instead of mythic raids dropping higher ilvl gear than heroic, it would drop heroic ilvl gear but also offer cosmetic rewards instead. My real dream would be the removal of the mythic difficulty all together and replace it with optional hard modes on some (not all) bosses a la Ulduar (which you can make mythic difficulty) that just reward vanity items or cooler xmogs or lead to a Yogg 0 light sort of encounter to get a unique mount. Basically, I feel the focus on progression via ilvl has been overused to where it's causing a lot of the issues, from ilvl inflation to encounter/power scaling creep. I imagine that trying to keep the power balance from going out of whack eats up a considerable amount of development time. WF/TF was just a result of such a mindset, and I feel we need to go back to a more condensed offering of content where the hardest content is for glory, not necessarily power gains.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

It was only a matter of time when the "let loot be loot" philosophy that players cried and whined about -- which directly came from the Titanforging concept -- which made Blizzard cave in to would take its toll on a majority of players... that they back up and cry and whine for Titanforging back.

It's so boring without any chance to get an upgrade ever outside the waiting vault.

When all loot is a rare commodity, any piece you get matters. Unless... it doesn't. Then you're doubly fucked. Also, that is one way to describe the problem. "Boring" ... I think that's a first for me reading.

[kamuimac]

The glaring issues with WF/TF towards its end was two-fold:

1.) The amount an item could increase in ilvl compared to where you obtained said item was way too high.

2.) There was no other system in place that could combat bad luck or RNG.

As some have mentioned, the WF/TF system at the end of MoP was generally considered fine because no amount of ilvl random upgrade would invalidate the need to do higher content. For example, a WF ilvl boost from a heroic raid drop would never beat the ilvl of a mythic raid drop. This allowed a pathway to ilvl upgrades within your own progression without invalidating the need to eventually do the higher level content. This also severely lessens the need to do content below your appropriate progression path in order to get upgrades. However, Blizz let the system get way out of control to where it made content often feel either completely pointless or you had to do all the content if you were to play the game 'correctly'.

Now, as with many WoW systems, the WF/TF system wasn't necessarily a bad idea in a vacuum... but when meshed with all the other systems in the game it tended to fall apart. While it could feel amazing to get a maxed-out ilvl BiS trinket, it made getting normal loot or others getting higher ilvl loot just randomly feel absolutely terrible. One way this could have been combated would have been the implementation of the Valor upgrade system (in fact, I was one of many people who were telling Blizz this back in BfA testing phases if they weren't going to get rid of WF/TF). Being completely at the mercy of RNG this severe is never fun in the long run, but having a tangible path of progression that is within your control makes the situation a whole lot better. Personally, I felt the WF/TF system should've just been a perk along a Valor upgrade system, where you could get lucky and save some currency to upgrade your item... but in the end, you'll be able to upgrade your item to the WF/TF level anyways with a little more time.

In the end, Blizz took a system and turned it into a bastardized monster of its former self... which is not really a new thing as of late. WF/TF was a case of Blizz sticking to their guns no matter what, despite the long-term damage it was inflicting on players and the constant feedback that there was something wrong with the system. Again, the system by itself isn't a bad thing, but there needs to be other ways to achieve the same ends within your preferred content without just hoping you get lucky all the time.

*edit* - Forgot to mention that ilvl inflation caused by the system itself had some nasty ramifications over time. While Blizz is trying to combat this to some degree, I feel like they're making the systems exacerbate the problem.

If anything, I feel like the highest levels of content shouldn't be rewarding higher ilvl gear anymore. As an example, instead of mythic raids dropping higher ilvl gear than heroic, it would drop heroic ilvl gear but also offer cosmetic rewards instead. My real dream would be the removal of the mythic difficulty all together and replace it with optional hard modes on some (not all) bosses a la Ulduar (which you can make mythic difficulty) that just reward vanity items or cooler xmogs or lead to a Yogg 0 light sort of encounter to get a unique mount. Basically, I feel the focus on progression via ilvl has been overused to where it's causing a lot of the issues, from ilvl inflation to encounter/power scaling creep. I imagine that trying to keep the power balance from going out of whack eats up a considerable amount of development time. WF/TF was just a result of such a mindset, and I feel we need to go back to a more condensed offering of content where the hardest content is for glory, not necessarily power gains.

there were no issues with TF besides mythic raiders crying because johny no name that they never even meet in game got 1 mythic raid level item over 9 months of tier.

now tf is gone and so is 90 % of wow players who rather play FF 14 then wow.

so again there was no real issues with TF

and now we have dead game.

[Bloodyleech]

Bring WF/TF back via (acc wide) achievement unlocks.

Heroicilvl (WF) when one of the achievements is unlocked: All +10s (or all +15s)/ raid cleared on heroic / equal pvp rating
Mythicilvl (TF) when one of the achievements is unlocked: All +15s (or all +20s) / raid cleared on mythic / equal pvp rating

Would be fine with me.

[FelPlague]

It's so boring without any chance to get an upgrade ever outside the waiting vault.

I want to play the game to get upgrades, not sit and wait for my weekly welfare loot.

Legion/first half of Bfa were the greatest. Every end of dungeon chest contained a potential big upgrade. Every dungeon was run in anticipation of great loot. Fun times.

Blizzard always listens to the wrong people. Titanforging was the greatest. Loot and M+ are super boring in Shadowlands.

what ilvl gear do you have that no gear from M+ outside the vault is an upgrade? like holy shit dude
you know gear from the normal runs can be upgraded all the way to 245 right?

[Lollis]

there were no issues with TF besides mythic raiders crying because johny no name that they never even meet in game got 1 mythic raid level item over 9 months of tier.

Were you living in a box in BFA or something? How can you have played the game and be so ignorant of the main cause for people disliking the forge system?

The reason people hated Titanforging isn't because some random might get loot that perhaps they weren't seen as being worthy of.

• It's because it made it so that every time you got an item that didn't Titanforge you felt let down. Getting loot should NEVER make you feel screwed over.
• It's because when you got a piece of Titanforged loot that wasn't of any use to you, you often couldn't even trade it away because of higher ilevel & personal loot.
• It's because when you got a new piece of gear and your old Titanforged socket of -20 ilevel was STILL BETTER, you again couldn't trade it away and your supposed—to—be upgrade was worthless.

Anyone who thinks that the problem Raiders' had with Titanforging was simply about others getting gear is so completely fucking blind of the issue that they might as well have not been playing the game.

[Swnem]

No, it doesn't.

It needs better drop rates or more player agency on what pieces we get. So do the raids.

[Dorothyjean]

No thanks.

Quite frankly, they should never reintroduce this or bonus rolls or any sort of rng warforge/titanforge on quest / world quest items ever again.

It was toxic to the game.

The people were toxic not those things. People that became obsessed with the grind were the problem and I'm not shitting on them to each their own but that sense of entitlement because "me = play 24 hours a day = gimme gimme" is a load of crap and always has been. When one of my guildmates got WF or TF I was happy for them because ultimately it helped me out but those overly obsessed min/max upper echelon people it's like a sleight against them personally and they lash out. "Why did that person get it and not me, I play this game religiously".

That mindset is toxic and when you remove reforging, WF and TF they will just find something else to go after and low and behold they have all throughout Shadowlands. Blizz introduces this system = it blows, they tweak the system = better ... 1 day later those same people "now this sucks!".

It never ends with them. Look at the pvp vendor when they announced it for SL... people were humping their monitors. Now "The problem with the pvp vendor..." yada yada yada yada. It never stops.

Regular people were fine with reforging, WF and TF but those players who feel they should get what above all others are their own problem.

[kamuimac]

Were you living in a box in BFA or something? How can you have played the game and be so ignorant of the main cause for people disliking the forge system?

The reason people hated Titanforging isn't because some random might get loot that perhaps they weren't seen as being worthy of.

• It's because it made it so that every time you got an item that didn't Titanforge you felt let down. Getting loot should NEVER make you feel screwed over.
• It's because when you got a piece of Titanforged loot that wasn't of any use to you, you often couldn't even trade it away because of higher ilevel & personal loot.
• It's because when you got a new piece of gear and your old Titanforged socket of -20 ilevel was STILL BETTER, you again couldn't trade it away and your supposed—to—be upgrade was worthless.

Anyone who thinks that the problem Raiders' had with Titanforging was simply about others getting gear is so completely fucking blind of the issue that they might as well have not been playing the game.

i can - because i really enjoyed BfA a lot . played it on 13 alts,

now i barely play on 2 chars - and i spend most of time in FF - just like most of my guildies who literaly just said f.. .it and abandoned wow in middle of raid night on sylvanas hc progress. was hilalrious .

but true - im nowhere near being mythic tryhard to care about what others get.

[TBCCLOL]

I want to play the game to get upgrades, not sit and wait for my weekly welfare loot.

TF was already welfare loot on rng, you get giga item for doing nothing hard like m+

[Lollis]

i can - because i really enjoyed BfA a lot . played it on 13 alts,

So you are completely ignorant of why people hated it despite you playing BFA, at least you admit it.

but true - im nowhere near being mythic tryhard to care about what others get.

Others getting gear wasn't the big issue that people had with titanforging, but think what you will, im not here to teach you how to read.