If the buck is passed to FFXIV...

[Stickiler]

Because there were elements that were good but overall it was awful. And look. Now it's one of the most popular MMOs on the marker.

If the original was garbage why would anyone be interested in a remake? We wanted it remastered because the graphics didn't age well. We didn't want action combat, no story changes, and definitely not broken into 3 parts that could get cancelled if the higher ups decide its not making enough money.

You guys are talking about two different games. RevenantZero is talking about FFXIV and the ARR Refresh, and Shadowmatrix is talking about FF7 and the FF7 Remake where they basically made a new game very similar to FF7.

[Dartz1979]

No king rules forever

technically you are not correct on that there is a king that rules forever just not down here with us :-)

[Poppincaps]

Meanwhile over in Bozja players are grinding a frustrating power system while trying to get RNG powers to get stronger weapons and armor. Of course they could go do Eureka which is the same thing...bad example. What about Deep Dungeon where you have to grind a separate power system to get RNG power upgrades. Well at least I can skip Palace of the Dead and just do Heaven on High, oh wait I need floor 50 of Palace of the Dead to get into Heaven on High.

Seems both have issues with power systems and RNG.

1. The Relic is not even BIS until the very end of the expansion when most of the raiders have already cleared all of the Savage raids. The main reason people do the relics is for the glamour.

2. Palace of the Dead and Heaven on High are both 100% optional content.

Sure there's RNG and grinds, but they don't tie them to your endgame progression like WoW does. If you want to raid in WoW at a semi-hardcore or hardcore level you have to do so much content outside of raiding. Mythic+, Torghast, Korthia, your renown quests, and Raiding. In FF14, all you have to do raid and do your daily Expert roulette or hunts. The end game for FF14 is essentially equivalent to what the endgame in Wrath was.

[Fedexkilla80]

It will be the same. All comes down to which MMORPG Daycare people want to play in, then scream, bitch, whine and generally "Karen" it up when there is nothing to do. Each game has its strengths and weakness and not all players get the same experience nor set out to experience it the same way.

[Mojo03]

The thing about japanese game makers is that I think they mostly care about japanese players who are enough to keep them going.

So maybe the complaints and whining of westerners will never reach their ears.

Ive seen Yoshi P say they think of FF14 as a game designed for the “world”.

The western player base (US/EU) is twice that of Japan.

It absolutely influences their direction.

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Do people still think Twitch numbers mean anything? This is the equivalent logic of somebody saying that the moon is closer to them than California because they can see the moon...

No and that guy cherry picked the numbers.

In fairness, the averages are usually a lot closer from what I’ve seen.

If we’re not counting Asmon, who usually has 70k+ people watching for whatever reason.

If you count him, add another 70k+ to FF14 and it destroys WOW.

If were going to cherry pick shit, like that guy, then you may as well count the numbers when Asmon is on.

[Usernameforforums]

"The grass is always greener" is probably more accurate than you know.

Same daily grinds
Same 0 zero world content
Less raids
No m+

If you could create an alternate universe and transplant 100% of wow players to FF, the game would shut down a second time from drowning in the tears of complaints.

Daily grinds? In ffxiv? The only dailies are beast tribes and thats exclusively used for leveling. Unless you’re dumb and use your max level for whatever reason. Then you have the cap of 12 quest a day and each hub has 3.

Hunts, maps, gathering jobs, and there might be some other stuff i dont remember are all world content. Just because you do 0 world content doesnt mean there is 0 world content.

Actually its about the same. You get 4 raid bosses and 3 trial bosses every patch and 4-6 alliance raid bosses every other patch. Trial bosses usually have accessories and weapons whereas raids handle gear. The alliance raid is there for catchup.

Mythic + is trash and was only fun the first expansion when it was introduced. I played the hell out of legion and its mythic+. All mythic+ does is make an interesting dungeon turn into an trash filled nightmare.

[Speedlance]

Wow is still fun for many people, relax a bit lol.

[Klingers]

After the first squish we've gotten what, 3 bad expansions and one decent one? Plus squishes are anti-mmorpg progression, when they start doing that it shows they stopped caring about your character growing from expansion to expansion.

I don't think that's really true. When the numbers reach into the millions it's just a number. There's all kind of reasons for example server overhead designed with bigger numbers.

WoW's bigger problem that has cheapened character growth is with new farmable catch-up gear every patch it cheapens the work you did progressing through the last raid tier. The only thing that "matters" is the current patch and as soon as it's no longer current, you end up with a mini-soft-reset.

[Ashleyxoxo]

Catgirls bad.

[Sialina]

Money is only one of the many factors. Time is a limited resource that has to be used wisely. Spending 200+ hours just to get glamour dressers to go in houses while there's tons of other major stuff needing to be done doesn't exactly seem like the best use of time when you need an expansion out the door. And you can't just hire more people because budgets exist regardless of how greedy or not the company is, and these games can only make so much money.

If you want a game that's never squished, go play EQ2. I think they're doing hundreds of trillions of DPS now. Raid zones lag every fight because of it, and you can't really see your numbers because there are so many procs and talents (over 350 talent points!) that you just get a cloud of numbers every swing/skill. THey literally have to design fights around not having too many adds or things going on because numbers are so big. But hey they've never diminished your feeling of power growth via squishes! It must be doing great and is totally not dying right? Cause the squish killed WoW so no squish means vibrant, amazing game right? Right?

I would like to inform you about how computers work, your computer takes the exact same time to add 1+1 as it does adding 2 145 000 000 + 2 145 000 000. Why? Because every operation done uses the entire integer, your computer, for every number, either does 0+0=0 or 0+1=1 or 1+1=1 + 1 moving up 1 row. It takes exactly 1 cycle to calculate that 1 + 1 = 2 or that 2 145 000 000 + 2 145 000 000 = 4 290 000 000, it doesn't cause any more lag, it doesn't take any more power, nothing.
What likely causes lag is procs, because if you have a single proc, even if the damage is 1, now you have a second calculaton.
And 1+1 = 2 + proc 1+1. now you have 2 calculations minimum, and even though the result is only 4, it will take twice as long AT LEAST to calculate as 2 145 000 000 + 2 145 000 000 = 4 290 000 000

Don't you learn binary math in school? How do people not know this?

[crusadernero]

Not that I have any doubts about the game's quality or the developers' integrity, but that doesn't change the fact that the same gamers who complained about WoW are going to complain about Final Fantasy, right?

SquareEnix certainly has my confidence, but so did Blizzard for a very long time. The pressure of being top dog is substantial and indeed "the grass is always greener" on the other side.

(inb4 a slow decay of FFXIV optimism breaks down the community over the years)

But what do you think? Is FFXIV, for whatever reason, going to avoid trending downwards for an incredible amount of time like WoW? Bonus points if you explain what trajectory you see the MMO genre going in as a whole, considering the current landscape.

Once enough people have played FFXIV to death they will start to complain there too. I know the game has been out for years, but for the masses of MMORPG players its sort of "new". Give the complainers enough time, and they will come after the game in full force.

Most of those who complain on a daily basis about wow are those who have played daily for 10+ years probably. Theres no pleasing them at this point.

Right now FFXIV got one thing going for them: Endless amount of content to scuffle through. For a while.

[Caerrona]

There is plenty of world content and lack of m+ is a GOOD thing.

Walk around and do fates forever or do eureka and walk around and do... more fates.

People are going to get past the "new shiny" phase of FF14 and realize not only is there less to do but the actual "engagement" in the game ie endgame (raids/pvp/ and again irrelevant dungeons, even with the sync) is far below that of wow.

People complain of no content in wow, try 1 lfr wing for 6 MONTHS, then one heroic wing for 6 MONTHS, then a dungeon for 6 MONTHS, then 1 mythic fight for 6 MONTHS.

Say what you want about wow and defend ff14 all you want, but the game has a severe lack of actual content once you are past the slog that is msq and unlocking everything.

1 patch in wow = an entire endgame of an expansion of ff14.

[Jazzhands]

I would like to inform you about how computers work, your computer takes the exact same time to add 1+1 as it does adding 2 145 000 000 + 2 145 000 000. Why? Because every operation done uses the entire integer, your computer, for every number, either does 0+0=0 or 0+1=1 or 1+1=1 + 1 moving up 1 row. It takes exactly 1 cycle to calculate that 1 + 1 = 2 or that 2 145 000 000 + 2 145 000 000 = 4 290 000 000, it doesn't cause any more lag, it doesn't take any more power, nothing.
What likely causes lag is procs, because if you have a single proc, even if the damage is 1, now you have a second calculaton.
And 1+1 = 2 + proc 1+1. now you have 2 calculations minimum, and even though the result is only 4, it will take twice as long AT LEAST to calculate as 2 145 000 000 + 2 145 000 000 = 4 290 000 000

Don't you learn binary math in school? How do people not know this?

During the recent, as in like two days ago I think, Live Letter for FF14 they said they had to adjust potency numbers because damage was inflating too high in their formula and that was causing issues. It just has to do with how the games are put together behind the scenes. Spaghetti code ect ect. We don't know anything about that stuff except what they've told us, and all I've said is stuff they've directly said. You can sit here and disagree with them on why this stuff is happening, but you won't really get far.

[Kallisto]

I'd rather they take the time to fix the mess than squish.

Then you'd be waiting years. Sometimes technical messes are so in twined that they become a gordion knot

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Well assuming extreme, sustained and lucrative success for a few years, I just don't see Square Enix ending up in Blizzard's position of corporate greed taking over every single aspect of development and marketing. They have many more titles to sell and a much brighter future as a corporate entity. They might end up pushing things a bit too far here and there, but again I just don't see them alienating/betraying substantial but less lucrative parts of their playerbase for a quick buck or better optics in a quarterly report.

I'm very sure however that they would be astute enough to pull the plug when the time is right instead of intensifying efforts to squeeze the last drop out of the udder at any cost to their company name. They'd probably have the next game ready to ship before that happens anyway, if not two or three. But even if the game eventually started drying up like WoW did, unlike Blizzard they would not have put all their eggs in that one basket and have the freedom to just live with their losses and focus on other avenues.

Square Enix is a business. And like every business from the mega corps to the small store on the corner all it cares about is going into your pocket and transferring all the money from you to them.

[confety]

Walk around and do fates forever or do eureka and walk around and do... more fates.

People are going to get past the "new shiny" phase of FF14 and realize not only is there less to do but the actual "engagement" in the game ie endgame (raids/pvp/ and again irrelevant dungeons, even with the sync) is far below that of wow.

People complain of no content in wow, try 1 lfr wing for 6 MONTHS, then one heroic wing for 6 MONTHS, then a dungeon for 6 MONTHS, then 1 mythic fight for 6 MONTHS.

Say what you want about wow and defend ff14 all you want, but the game has a severe lack of actual content once you are past the slog that is msq and unlocking everything.

1 patch in wow = an entire endgame of an expansion of ff14.

But in wow we had in 9.1.

1 raid for 6 months
1 dungeon for 6 months
1 hour of story
1 zone for 6 months

Both games do the same

[Kallisto]

That is the mentality WoW conditioned you with.

FF isn't designed to string you along with frustrating power systems and RNG.
The game wants you to have fun and then go have time time to do others things as well. It respects your time.

But, if you want, there is in facts lots to do, if you want to. The game just doesn't hold your arm down to do it by making everything about player power.

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And when wow did that and Ghostcrawler said the same "if you're done it's fine come back next patch." that yoshi did a couple years later the wow community went feral on him demanding blizzard find ways to keep them online longer.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

If the trend of FFXIV delivering less content with each expansion holds true, then I think there will be complaining in Spring 2022, when the first patch of the Endwalker expansion comes out. It won't reach anywhere near the same level of negativity over WoW, as FFXIV has a lot of things going for it that WoW does not.

• Square Enix actually talks to their customers regularly and is rather transparent.

• Square Enix does not mock their customers like Blizzard regularly does.

• Square Enix does not treat their players as unpaid beta testers when a new patch comes out, and then release a buggy patch to the playerbase like Blizzard does with every patch.

• Square Enix does not release broken systems or infuriating systems like Blizzard does regularly.

• FFXIV delivers a substantial amount of non-raid content in each patch (relatively speaking, compared to WoW, which is a raid or die game), so casuals have much more meat to chew on.

• FFXIV does not trash their own lore, story, and characters on the same level that Blizzard has been gleefully doing for the past 7 years.

FFXIV isn't perfect. There are things I wish it could do better. But to expect that that former WoW players will be anywhere near as agitated as when they played WoW is absurd. It's mindboggling to think about how Blizzard somehow managed to consistently fuck up and antagonize their customers on so many different levels for the past 7 years.

[Kallisto]

Even if FF14 falls from grace, I don't believe it would be for the same reasons as WoW.

Last I checked Square Enix aren't financial slaves to a malevolent foreign power run by a bipedal teddy bear, nor do they employee predatory frat-boys who harass their female co-workers.

Every business is a slave to China. No one is going to look at 1.4Billion potential customers and go "no thanks."

Also they are a Japanese company. Everything Activision Blizzard has done is basically considered the average work day due to how shitty work culture is out there.

There's also evidence of this in an earlier post in this own thread.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Just compare the playerbase's different reactions to cash shops. While yes, there is a demographic difference between WoW's fandom and FFXIV's, I think WoW's fandom is more vocal about the cash shop because it is yet another bad on a huge stinking pile of bad. There are so many things Blizzard is doing wrong that when a new cash shop or 6 month sub mount is announced, for many people it's the straw that broke the camel's back. Whereas Square Enix does not antagonize their customers on anywhere near the same level Blizzard does, so when new cash shop stuff is added, it irks some people but they are overall having a pleasant time with FFXIV so it's not a dealbreaker.

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Honestly either one is ideal.

Off the top of my head.

FF14 has a very mediocre engine, wonky servers, and all around flows 25% slower than it should (movement speed, story pacing, combat, etc, etc.), the classes are very homogenized in each category with mostly just flavor differences, and while the devs are no doubt cooler, the game also seems to be quite underfunded, despite currently making $50 million a month on subs (not including it's large cash shop, merch, or box sales). I'm a bit lost on that one.

WoW has arrogant & elitist devs, game design promotes predatory practices and elitist behavior, lack of innovation, only current patch content is relevant despite 17 years of content, essentially only 3 things to do (raid, M+, pvp) in CURRENT content, and a significantly worse community.

They both have a host of issues.

This. FFXIV could be so much more than it is, but it's not actively antagonizing like WoW is.

Honestly having two popular MMOs is the best case scenario. The competition keeps both companies on their toes. And players can hop back and forth between the two during lulls in content.

Personally I'm still raiding on WoW but I spend a lot of time on FF14 just leveling and rping.

I've seen people throw the phrase "competition will improve the game!" around a lot, but I'm personally not seeing it. Other games have been putting WoW to shame in various departments for years now, but Blizzard has never gotten off their ass and implemented their own versions to compete. For instance, so many other MMOs have housing systems and yet WoW never bothered. We'll see if 10.0 is the wakeup call but I doubt it.

Same old story, nothing new.

I have seen it way too many times. WoW is doing badly, some new game is doing well, and MMOChampion is literally flooded with people in every thread saying "Welp, time to jump ship!", "Luckily (new game) is way better than WoW", "I stopped playing WoW thanks to (new game)".

Next, the novelty will wear off, WoW will launch a new patch, people will come back to check. Some will realize they have too many achievements/memories in WoW to start new and feel a lot of fatigue in the new game, so they will get back. Others will just plain like the patch and stay. Others will quit altogether because they are burnt out of the MMO genre. Others will keep playing the new game.

Just look at Age of Conan, Warhammer, Metin, Wildstar, Kotor. If you think this time will be different, you haven't been paying attention.

There is nothing wrong in trying out new stuff, and all the praise FF is getting is just mildly annoying for an outsider. But WoW will die because Blizzard will pull the plug, not sooner. The rest is wishful thinking and loud mouths.

This is not the same situation. These are completely different circumstances.

First, WoW is no longer the king it used to be. People checked out Warhammer and Wildstar and SWTOR and Rift for a time, but those games weren't as good as WoW. WoW had 12 million subscribers for a reason. And there is a reason why WoW barely has 2 million subscribers or less today. To say that WoW is just as appealing to people today as it was 10 years ago is denial.

Second, FFXIV is not a new MMO launching. FFXIV has been out for several years. FFXIV's recent rise in popularity is not people getting hyped for a fad, but people waking up and realizing that there is a good alternative replacement. If WoW was still good enough to have 12 million subscribers and FFXIV was launching today, it'd just be the same story as all of the other supposed "WoW killers" that came before. Clearly that is not the case.

[Cosmic Janitor]

FFXIV shows that there are other aspects to an mmoRPG that WoW is woefully lacking. I personally think that both games tend to complement one another. Some people will want to go back to farm the latest wow stuff, some will want to do stuff in FFXIV after everything settles. Neither game is perfect, and some people realizing that the same is true for WoW is alreaey a win for gaming in my book.